Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Dejawolf]

Very nice. You have worked hard for this one, I can see that. How much time did take for you to come up with this?

He will dispute the length of the turret now.

i just made an orthographic render of my existing 3d model, and hid a few parts. took me about an hour or so putting in all of the measures though.

 

[ersakthivel]

not that it will change your set-in-stone opinion.

Main sight cutaway itself occupies 700 mm depth from the gun mantle plate front tip .

And the front tip of the bar holder starts at the back wall of the cutaway.

The turret top bar holder length is close to 620 mm long.


So the bar holder ends at a distance of 700 + 620 mm = 1320 mm from the gun front mantle plate tip on the turret front.

But in your 2D model you have shown that the bar holder ends at 108 cm from the turret front tip.

You can get the length of the bar holder from the following drawing.

In this drawing the end of the bar holder is located at a point of 1350 mm behind the gun mantle plate tip.But this distance is shown as 108 cm in your 2 D model

 

[LaVictoireEstLaVie]

By the way am i right to assume , given all the sources, that the Arjun mk1s turret and hull weight is 18,5 and 40,0 metric tons respectively?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Turret is 20 ton ..

 

[LaVictoireEstLaVie]

Thanks for the info Kunal. I thought it was 18,5 tons given the fact that the hull of the tank EX is supposedly 28,5 metric tons and the total weight 47 metric tons, which would have left us 18,5 tons roughly for the weight of the turret of the Tank EX. How dissimilar ar the Arjun and Tank EX turrets from one another ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tank EX turret was modified as per T-72 Chassis, Hence shorter..

Picture >>

TANK EX and behind is Arjun MK1

Thanks for the info Kunal. I thought it was 18,5 tons given the fact that the hull of the tank EX is supposedly 28,5 metric tons and the total weight 47 metric tons, which would have left us 18,5 tons roughly for the weight of the turret of the Tank EX. How dissimilar ar the Arjun and Tank EX turrets from one another ?

 

[ersakthivel]

not that it will change your set-in-stone opinion.

This picture shows that gunner's 25 inch seat space is not fully provided within the confines of turret bustle alone .

SO you can squeeze out another 200 mm is position of the gunner is adjusted properly. This plus the other 200 plus mm from my previous post no- will give it correct LOS behind Main sight.

 

[ersakthivel]

This picture shows that gunner's 25 inch seat space is not fully provided within the confines of turret bustle alone .

SO you can squeeze out another 200 mm is position of the gunner is adjusted properly.


This plus the other 200 plus mm from my previous post no- 5202 will give it correct LOS behind Main sight.

The picture above shows that gunner's seat head rest is in line with front edge of the crew hole proving my assumptions correct.

You marked only the B as 380 mm.That is 800 mm as per my calculation in previous page.

If you mark all the distances A, B , C , D respectively as 700 mm, 800 mm, 500 mm, 500 mm you wlil get corretc placement of all the stuff.

 

[Dejawolf]

The picture above shows that gunner's seat head rest is in line with front edge of the crew hole proving my assumptions correct.

You marked only the B as 380 mm.That is 800 mm as per my calculation in previous page.

If you mark all the distances A, B , C , D respectively as 700 mm, 800 mm, 500 mm, 500 mm you wlil get corretc placement of all the stuff.

lol. the turret bustle is the big metal overhang in the REAR of the turret. the gunners seat is located in the turret BASKET.
there's no squeezing, the commander is as far back as he can go. here's what happends if the commander is moved back 200mm:

commander is no longer under the hatch, seat back is far behind the vision block assembly, and commanders back is clipping through the turret ring.
and i did not mark "B" in the drawing. thats the distance from the back wall of the front armour to the back of the gun mantle armour attachment.

 

[ersakthivel]

lol. the turret bustle is the big metal overhang in the REAR of the turret. the gunners seat is located in the turret BASKET.
there's no squeezing, the commander is as far back as he can go. here's what happends if the commander is moved back 200mm:

commander is no longer under the hatch, seat back is far behind the vision block assembly, and commanders back is clipping through the turret ring.
and i did not mark "B" in the drawing. thats the distance from the back wall of the front armour to the back of the gun mantle armour attachment.

The rough draw may not be upto scale, it is a rough and ready alteration of what militarista posted to communicate my point of view.

1. A ----------the distance between gun mantlet plate front tip and the back edge of the main sight cutaway= 700mm according to your previous posts.

2. B ----------- The distance between the back edge of the main sight cutaway and the opening for roof top vision block inside Arjun turret (the back edge of the main gunner's sight block is in vertical line with roof top vision block opening inside Arjun turret) = 800 mm(LOS for composite armor)


3. C ---------- the distance between the back edge of the main gunner's sight block and the gunner's seat back head rest=500 mm.

4. D ------------the distance between the gunner's seat back head rest and the vertical standing crew hatch cover in the line drawing posted below = 500mm. gunner's seat back head rest is in vertical straight line with the front arc edge of the round crew hole.

So A + B + C + D = 700 + 800 + 500 + 500 = 2500 mm.


1.The red rectangle marked measurement A starts at the gun mantlet plate tip and ends at the main sight cutaway back side edge.

2. The blue rectangle signifying B starts at the where A ends and stops at back edge of the gunner's main sight bloc back edge.


3. The yellow rectangle C starts at the point where B ends and stops at the back side of the gunner's seat headrest's back edge.


4.The green rectangle D starts at where C ends and stops at the swivel or the base of the vertical standing crew hatch cover base in the only line drawing dimensions posted in this post above.


1. the length of A-------The red rectangle's length is 700 mm.

2.The length of B-------The red rectangle's length is 800 mm.

3.The length of C-------The red rectangle's length is 500 mm.

4.The length of D-------The red rectangle's length is 500 mm.

A + B + C + D =2500 mm.

The end of the green rectangle D is exactly at 2500 mm from the front tip of the gun mantle plate according to the drawing with dimensions from where you supposedly took you measurements for your 3D model.

The following photo validates my measurement of the length of the green (D) and yellow(C) rectangle.

1.The Tc seat edge the ending point of the yellow rectangle is situated at 2500 mm behind the gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

2.The gunner's seat , the ending point of the yellow rectangle is locate at at 2000 mm from gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

3.Since the Tc himself has just 500 mm seat breadth the gunner too will have the same 500 mm. So the ending point of the blue rectangle is at 1500 mm from gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

And the photo above is a clear proof that the roof top vision block brings light into the Arjun turret in a slanting rectangular channel at the point of the end of the blue rectangle i.e a point in vertical line with the back side of the gunner's main vision block with binocular like eye pieces.

4.Also since the main sight cutaway stops at 700 mm from the gun mantle plate tip ,

according to the line drawing with scale measurements the ending point of the red rectangle , is locates at 700 from the gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.


So 1500 mm- 700 mm =800 mm is the LOS armor thickness behind the main sight without any doubt.

And the roof top vision block brings light to the gunner's main vision block through a slating rectangular channel.

If the main sight is pushed up like the latest model LEOs the Arjun can have 300 mm more LOS behind the main sight than any LEO model, because it's turret is longer and lower than LEO.

So any 380 mm LOS or 300 mm LOS behind the main sight is pointless according to the photo proofs.

 

[ersakthivel]

So if the Indian Army wants ARJUN can have all of 2000 mm armor thickness behind main sight if it is modified like the LEO latest versions by increasing the height of the dog house for the main sight and bringing it on the turret roof top.No big deal crying over lower LOS armor thickness.

Even without increasing the height of the main sight and just by altering the front turret geometry,

with no repositioning of any instrument the same 2000 mm LOS behind the main sight can be achieved.

 

[Dejawolf]

The rough draw may not be upto scale, it is a rough and ready alteration of what militarista posted to communicate my point of view.

it isn't. the green and yellow squares are far too small. they're 44 and 47cm, when they should both be 64cm each
in other words, half of that yellow square should be green, and then that length needs to be duplicated ahead of the green square.

 

[ersakthivel]

it isn't. the green and yellow squares are far too small. they're 44 and 47cm, when they should both be 64cm each
in other words, half of that yellow square should be green, and then that length needs to be duplicated ahead of the green square.

it is a rough and ready schema not drawn to scale. So visual comparison may be misleading .

But the logic behind the dimension marking are indisputable.

The green rectangle is like the dia line drawn through the center point of the crew hatch opening circle on this photo. it can not be more than 500 mm on any count, because the crew hole dia is just 450 mm as per old discussion.

 

[Dejawolf]

it is a rough and ready schema not drawn to scale. So visual comparison may be misleading .

But the logic behind the dimension marking are indisputable.

The green rectangle is like the dia line drawn through the center point of the crew hatch opening circle on this photo. it can not be more than 500 mm on any count, because the crew hole dia is just 450 mm as per old discussion.

yeah well it doesn't matter. TCs seat back is in line with the back edge of the hatch hole, and there would be no room for the gunner if the backplate was that thick.
also, it is not the gunners headrest, but gunners back rest. you can see it in the side cutaway render in my turret, and it's nearly in line with the front of the TC hatch there. no "300mm" spacing as you claimed, between TC screen and back rest.

 

[ersakthivel]

yeah well it doesn't matter. TCs seat back is in line with the back edge of the hatch hole, and there would be no room for the gunner if the backplate was that thick.
also, it is not the gunners headrest, but gunners back rest. you can see it in the side cutaway render in my turret, and it's nearly in line with the front of the TC hatch there. no "300mm" spacing as you claimed, between TC screen and back rest.

There is enough room for the gunner if you apply Arjun dimensions properly.

the photo below is the proof that roof top vision block opening at 1000 mm distance from the Tc's seat back

The distance between the Tc's seat head rest and the big black knob on his right hand side is close to 500 mm.

This distance is the same distance as that of the back edge of the gunner's main sight i.e down in a vertical line below the roof top vision block opening in Arjun turret crew compartment.

So it must also be the same 500 mm without any doubt. So my markings are correct.

So both the green and yellow triangles are 500 mm each in length.

That leaves the blue rectangle i.e the LOS behind armor no value other than the 800 mm.

See the same big black knob held by Tc's right hand. There is no way that big black knob is more than 500 mm from the Tc's seat's head rest.

In the photo below without Tc in his seat the same big black knob bisects the distance between the back of the TC seat's head rest and the opening of the roof top vision block over the back edge of the gunner's main vision block, on the Arjun turret interior.

So the yellow rectangle can not be more than 500 mm in length by any account.

 

[The Last Stand]

Where is this diagram from?

 

[ersakthivel]

Where is this diagram from?

If you don't even know that you have no business posting in this thread.

first go from the first page and read what this thread is all about.

it will do you a world of good. And it will be a much useful exercise for you than posting cute opinions like the one highlighted below.

Very nice. You have worked hard for this one, I can see that. How much time did take for you to come up with this?

He will dispute the length of the turret now.

For your kind information the guy whose work you admire whole heartedly also claims to have created his 3D model from the same diagram , whose source you are asking me

And posting a troll smiley for me --------------- for quoting measurement from the same diagram.


if you don't even know what this diagram is how come you complement the guy by saying, "Very nice. You have worked hard for this one, I can see that. How much time did take for you to come up with this?"

So how did you certify his work without even knowing that he claims his 3d model is based on this same diagram.

Strange twisted piece of logic you apply by calling me a troll for posting the same diagram and appreciating the work done by the other guy who too claims to be basing his work on the same diagram.

 

[The Last Stand]

@ersakthivel, he certainly works harder than you, and you have no right commenting on my post which was addressed to him. He doesn't base his calculation on that image alone, he used several other images as evidenced by previous pages of this thread. It isn't twisted logic. You, on the other hand, has tried your best to give us "proof" without proper markings on images.

Seriously? I don't have rights to post on this thread?

You are definitely pissed, and you are targeting everyone who fails to accept that Arjun doesn't have flaws.

You are entertaining me with your rage, I'm afraid it is impossible for me to dispute your ad hominem

I am not calling you a troll, I call myself that.

I don't admire his work whole-heartedly. And if you really must get your point through, mark points and measure on images. As you have not done that for so much time, ........................................

P.S. My short term memory is bad, I don't remember pictures all that much.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, he certainly works harder than you, and you have no right commenting on my post which was addressed to him. He doesn't base his calculation on that image alone, he used several other images as evidenced by previous pages of this thread. It isn't twisted logic. You, on the other hand, has tried your best to give us "proof" without proper markings on images.

who works harder is not the issue here. The issue here is faithfully reproducing the dimensions according to the photos and line drawing on which he swears his model is based
For example he swears his 3D model is based on the same line drawing you don't know where it came from. In the same line drawing the bar holder's back edge ends close to 1300 mm behind the gun front tip. But he marks it on 1080 mm from the front tip. When I questioned it he remains silent. So proper work is what counts , not wrong hard work.

Seriously? I don't have rights to post on this thread?

You are definitely pissed, and you are targeting everyone who fails to accept that Arjun doesn't have flaws.

What I said was if you don't know anything about Arjun or from where the drawing has come form, then how come you post," He will question the turrret length now. " . I am not a fool to not to know on whom this comment of yours is aimed at.

People calling Arjun flawed are claiming to have found out it's flaws from the diagram here and photos below, When I point out glaring mistakes in their point of view , you are calling me getting pissed off , if anyone calls Arjun flawed.

You are entertaining me with your rage, I'm afraid it is impossible for me to dispute your ad hominem

I am not calling you a troll, I call myself that.

I don't admire his work whole-heartedly. And if you really must get your point through, mark points and measure on images. As you have not done that for so much time, ........................................

That is what I have done. And he perfectly understands my points. If you too post some drawing with dimensions and argue a point it will be productive.

And you will feel the pain when some one who casually insults you without even knowing from where the drawing based upon which this debate is going on.

P.S. My short term memory is bad, I don't remember pictures all that much.

This drawing is posted by MOD PMAITRA here from the BharathRakshak Thread and it is the only official line drawing with proper scale and dimensions upon which we all are falling over like cats and dogs in heat.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/Mod/MBT/Arjun/0605.jpg.html

The above page is the link for the line drawing done by one Makarand Potdar the blurb on google calls,"Makarand Potdar does an excellent line drawing of the Arjun MBT, complete with length and height specs. Size: 1000x342, 1750x598. Full size: 1750x598 ..."

So some cure is posted here for your short term memory loss here.

 

[Dejawolf]

This drawing is posted by MOD PMAITRA here from the BharathRakshak Thread and it is the only official line drawing with proper scale and dimensions upon which we all are falling over like cats and dogs in heat.

Line Drawing [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

The above page is the link for the line drawing done by one Makarand Potdar the blurb on google calls,"Makarand Potdar does an excellent line drawing of the Arjun MBT, complete with length and height specs. Size: 1000x342, 1750x598. Full size: 1750x598 ..."

So some cure is posted here for your short term memory loss here.

lol, anything i might be the slightest bit wrong about you latch onto like a tick because i've so consistently destroyed every argument you've laid out:

from crazy arguments like gunner being behind gun mantlet, to main gun configuration, all the way back to where you mistook an arjun for a tank-ex... this is not about being thorough, it's about you grasping for straws.