Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Kunal Biswas]

That is the rule, But it varies tank to tank FCS + Main Gun + Ammo overall accuracy..

For example Arjun accuracy is better than T-90S, Giving higher chance of hitting the weak zones..

you couldn't let it rest.... at 2km, because of dispersion, you'll be hitting a random location within a ~1m radius.

 

[ersakthivel]

What "700mm" are you OK? Seriously - "700mm"? WTF?

Main sight "cutway" (or LOS of the main sight) is 500mm in Arjun .

I told you a thousand times to explain the bumpy folds in the armor wall behind the main sight in the picture,

The picture above and the pic-3 below clearly disproves your flat armor wall behind main sight with 300 mm LOS for armor.

And you are dodging any answers for thousand times.

After explaining the meaning of this variable thickness behind the inner armor wall on the main sight,


You can entertain us all about the circa 310 mm LOS thickness behind arjun main sight.


The model which you measure your circa 310 mm is an old prototype rolled out for the defexpo 2004.

It is almost ten years after the event. And so many things on arjun has changed since then.

The armor wall does not stop at the top of the main sight vision block for the gunner and you see no roof top vision block in the photo below in pic no-3.

In pic no-3 you can see a white armor block coming down from the roof level above the orange FCS box. And you see no open roof top vision block,

Why? If there is no slanting channel below the roof top vision block and it is a simple cutaway on the roof means it would have been shown in the photo.

But exactly like the arrangement on LEO it is not visible just behind the orange FCS box , so the light channel from the roof top vision block may come through a higher LOS armor block in a slanted channel.

You can clearly notice two roof levels of varying height in the pic no-3. So your old explanations of 310 mm LOS behind main sight measurements on top of the 2004 defexpo prototype model won't fit in with the photos in this post.

What will never change is the constant trolling based on old discarded prototypes.

Also I already explained to you a hundred times that you have moved the position of the TC's seat and the gunner more than 200 mm infront to support your false claim of 300 mm LOS behind the main sight all based on the old 2004 defexpo model..

 

[ersakthivel]

The whole gunner's seat is visible from the photo taken vertically over the crew hole top. Look at the position of the gunner in your false drawing below by which you arrive at the 300 mm LOS.

Got the true picture?

There are massive differences between ten year old prototypes and in service models.

If you move the gunner's seat to it's proper place (300 mm back from the position it is now on the drawing ) You can get a clear idea why your estimates are wrong.

Move the gunner's seat back by 300 mm according to the photo above and arrive at a correct LOS estimate.

If you move the gunner's seat backwards you can clearly understand my argument that the light from roof top vision block comes through a slanting channel pipe inside beefed up armor behind the orange FCS box in the same manner as LEO.

The same view is supported by the picture below as well.

this is my conclusion based on pictures. What the actual arrangement is we both don't know as neither of us have seen the tank we are discussing even once in our life.

 

[ersakthivel]

the view in the above post is supported by the light coming from the roof top vision block seen at a height more than 200 below the inner roof of ARJUN turret.


No one can wiggle away by saying that roof plate of the ARJUN slopes that was once bandied about here.

the slope on the ARJUN roof starts after the roof top vision block and stops at the turret front tip.

There is no slope between the roof top vision block and crew hole for Tc.
Once again this is my argument based on pictures as most of the arguments advanced here are based on pis of the tank.

So the arrangement might be like LEO where the light channel from the roof top vision block goes through the middle of the beefed up armor block behind the main sight.

So like LEO a small armor block may be between the orange vision block and roof top vision block light channel like in LEO.

Since both ARJUN and LEO have their roof top vision box located at the more or less same distance of 1300 odd mm from the gun tip, they both may have some beefed up protection behind the sight as well.Nothing uncommon here.

That's why the roof vision block is not visible in pic-3 in the post above is my argument.

So arriving at the LOS behind main sight with the following model may not be correct is my view.

 

[ersakthivel]

So most of the posters here are using the NARASHIMA RAO era Arjun prototype for their measurement.which is more than a decade old prototype.

 

[Dejawolf]

I told you a thousand times to explain the bumpy folds in the armor wall behind the main sight in the picture,
.

and a thousand times you've been wrong. those bumpy folds only exist in your imagination.

 

[ersakthivel]

and a thousand times you've been wrong. those bumpy folds only exist in your imagination.

Since your model above won't be able to explain the picture above you will give the same incorrect reply a thousand times , perhaps.

the entire gunner's seat is visible along with the headrest of Tc's seat from the photo taken vertically above the crew hole.

it means the front edge of the gunner's seat is 2000mm behind the turret front gun tip according to the line drawing.

your 3d model below also shows the wrongly the gunner sitting at a place 300 mm in front of where he actually must be according to the photo of the crew hatch hole above.

B]So correct it. Don't mislead militarista to post misguided drawings based on your wrong model as he did above.

Don't misguide my close friend milarista, please.
.[/B]

[
Which means that the driver seat in the above draw must be moved 300 mm behind in the following draw to comply with that photo.

that will automatically increase the LOS thickness to close to 600 plus mm.

look at the picture above, the big white display is right at the level of gunner's seat i.e 2000 mm behind the gun front turret tip.

So the wrong flat wall behind the gunner's main vision block with binocular like eyepieces must be 500 mm infront of the crew hole edge.

So 2000mm -500mm=1500 mm.

So this wall is located at 1500 mm behind the turret gun front tip. the main sight cutaway takes up 700 mm of that 1500mm space.

deduct 700 mm for main sight cutaway, You still get 800 mm for LOS behind main sight. No escaping the proof on photos.

 

[ersakthivel]

the distance between the gun mantle plate tip at the front and the center of the crew hatch is close to 2300 mm in Arjun.

In Leopard this same distance is 2000 mm according the line drawing posted by a member here.

So where did the extra armor 300 mm distance go in Arjun?

As per my explanations above this extra 300 mm went behind the main sight armor to compensate for the main sight cutaway,

In Leopard extra armor wall behind main sight , above the gunner's head was added,

because the turret design did not have this extra 300 mm.

That's why to offer the same LOS protection level the arjun need not have an extra armor wall above the gunner's head.

In future if penetration level for armor piercing rounds increases ARJUN too can add another extra armor wall above the gunner's head and still remain contemporary. Since Arjun turret is wider than LEo there is no problem in shifting the orange FCS box to the sides of gunner's main vision block as in Leopard.

 

[ersakthivel]

the image above shows that the armor block behind the orange FCS box being further widened than the old picture below,

So Kunal is correct in saying that the armor is being increased as per the modern day requirements.

And it is pretty easy coming to a wrong conclusion based on old prototypes.

 

[militarysta]

SO AS PER YOUR OWN DRAWING THE ROOF TOP VISION BLOCK IS LOCATED 1500 MM BEHIND THE FRONT TURRET TIP OF THE GUN MANTLET PLATE.

Are you able to read simple draw whit big values on it..?

circa 1330mm for thicker LOS

DEDUCT 700 MM FOR THE MAIN SIGHT CUTAWAY.

What "700mm" are you OK? Seriously - "700mm"?

Main sight "cutway" (or LOS of the main sight) is 500mm in Arjun

THE LOS ARMOR THICKNESS BEHIND MAIN SIGHT IN ARJUN IS 800MM ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN MEASUREMENT.

No, it's very stupid sentense and obvious lie.

ACCORDING TO MY OWN MEASUREMENT Arjun LOS THICKNESS BEHIND MAIN SIGHT is 315mm
Got it? 315mm not 800mm.

A;SO ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN DRAWING THE THE SAME DISTANCE IN LEO IS 1250 MM.(WHICH HAS O BE CHECKED WITH PHOTOGRAPHS .)

You are completly unable to read simple text whit understanding:

Distance between front turret armour and turret roof vision have nothing to do here. Why? Becouse Arjun turret roof vision is AFTER special armour cavity after main sight, and in Leo-2A0-A4 turret roof vision block is IN HALF THICKENSS of the special armour block cavity after main sight.
And in Leopard-2A4 those LOS is 650mm while in Arjun is only 315mm.

SINCE ARJUN HAS THIS EXTRA 300 MM DISTANCE IN THE DISTANCE BETWEEN GUN MANTLET PLATE TIP AND ROOF TOP VISION BLOCK POSITION THAN LEO,

No, it hasn't:
Arjun - 1330mm
Leo-2A4 - circa 1200mm

So it's circa 100mm more in Arjun, but of course You don't consider the fact that EMES-15 main sight is smaller then Arjun main sight, and all this have nothing to do about protection becouse special armour blokc after main sight is only 315mm in Arjun and 650mm in Leo-2A0-A4. and only this is important.

mark the roof vision block on this line drawing with DIMENSIONS. You will see that the roof vision block is further back on ARJUN than LEO-2

Lool - funny statsment and without any conection whit reality:

SO no extra armored wall above the gunner's head is needed to arrive at the same LOS thickness.

It's imposible in this layout In Arjun there is only circa 315mm armour after main sight, in Leo-2A4 - 650mm. And when you finally will understand that only one think is important here:
-how many armour is between end of the main sight "doghouse" and crew comperment. In case leo-2 it is 650mm in case Arjun it's circa 315mm.

Why are you shying away from explaining the bumpy folds indicatind variable armor thickness behind the turret front . Do it just one time,not hundred times.

it's vertical there. I had explain this hundret times. Includin images, photos, part of the videos.

 

[militarysta]

For example Arjun accuracy is better than T-90S, Giving higher chance of hitting the weak zones..

No, it's complelty opposite - the gunner always aim in to center of the mass enemy tank. Anly on very close range (<500m) is able to chose - turret or hull.
In fact better accuracy give lower chanse to hit weak point, and lower accuracy give bigger chanse to hit those point. It's problem conected whit propability of the hit and ammo dispersion:

 

[sayareakd]

some should send link to this post to DRDO guys, they would love to see how much Arjun is discuss to the death.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Obsolete documentation from late 60s based MBTs..

Worthless, In this debate..

No, it's complelty opposite - the gunner always aim in to center of the mass enemy tank. Anly on very close range (<500m) is able to chose - turret or hull.
In fact better accuracy give lower chanse to hit weak point, and lower accuracy give bigger chanse to hit those point. It's problem conected whit propability of the hit and ammo dispersion:

 

[militarysta]

I told you a thousand times to explain the bumpy folds in the armor wall behind the main sight in the picture,

I can't explain something what exist only in Your brain - it's your ilusion. No single photo or video can proof this what you thing, so Im suprised and confused when I cant't see anything more then VERTICAL BACKPLATE and the same see @Damian, @STGN, @Dejawolf, @methos, etc. but only You can see " bumpy folds". Soory -it't does not exist in reality it's only your imagination or wishfull thinking, co what is here to explain?
It's obvious visible on pictures and videos - vertical backplate.

The model which you measure your circa 310 mm is an old prototype rolled out for the defexpo 2004.

It is almost ten years after the event. And so many things on arjun has changed since then.

The same solution is visible for Arjun interior from blumengofilms video - old Arjun model too?

The armor wall does not stop at the top of the main sight vision block for the gunner and you see no roof top vision block in the photo below in pic no-3.

In pic no-3 you can see a white armor block coming down from the roof level above the orange FCS box. And you see no open roof top vision block,

It's only your inlusion and imagination. Im not respond for yours fantasy or imagination. Images and videos proof this what I post (and other users said).

The whole gunner's seat is visible from the photo taken vertically over the crew hole top. Look at the position of the gunner in your false drawing below by which you arrive at the 300 mm LOS.

And this seat is slighty before vertical line (created from Tc periscope) so exatly correct whit this my own draw:

See -I have right.

light from roof top vision block comes through a slanting channel pipe

Show me ONE this style solution in ANY tank. It's nonsense - those vision blocki in Arjun roof is some kind of rest after old FCS (very old).

 

[ersakthivel]

I can't explain something what exist only in Your brain - it's your ilusion. No single photo or video can proof this what you thing, so Im suprised and confused when I cant't see anything more then VERTICAL BACKPLATE and the same see @Damian, @STGN, @Dejawolf, @methos, etc. but only You can see " bumpy folds". Soory -it't does not exist in reality it's only your imagination or wishfull thinking, co what is here to explain?
It's obvious visible on pictures and videos - vertical backplate.



The same solution is visible for Arjun interior from blumengofilms video - old Arjun model too?



It's only your inlusion and imagination. Im not respond for yours fantasy or imagination. Images and videos proof this what I post (and other users said).


And this seat is slighty before vertical line (created from Tc periscope) so exatly correct whit this my own draw:

See -I have right.


Show me ONE this style solution in ANY tank. It's nonsense - those vision blocki in Arjun roof is some kind of rest after old FCS (very old).

if you can't see any thing other than the vertical back plate contrary to the image in the photo we should close this debate as you have never seen a single arjun tank inside and simply refuting the visible proof in photos, I don't know how to carry forward this debate.

the point of my posting in this thread is not to discuss who is having problems dealing with reality and who is having a fantasy.

If your ego does not allow you to push the gunner's seat back by 300 mm to arrive at a correct LOS thickness behind the main sight , It is no my problem.

this is a debate based on drawings and photos purely. So evry one can see who is right and who is wrong

 

[ersakthivel]

Are you able to read simple draw whit big values on it..?

circa 1330mm for thicker LOS



What "700mm" are you OK? Seriously - "700mm"?

Main sight "cutway" (or LOS of the main sight) is 500mm in Arjun



No, it's very stupid sentense and obvious lie.

ACCORDING TO MY OWN MEASUREMENT Arjun LOS THICKNESS BEHIND MAIN SIGHT is 315mm
Got it? 315mm not 800mm.



You are completly unable to read simple text whit understanding:

Distance between front turret armour and turret roof vision have nothing to do here. Why? Becouse Arjun turret roof vision is AFTER special armour cavity after main sight, and in Leo-2A0-A4 turret roof vision block is IN HALF THICKENSS of the special armour block cavity after main sight.
And in Leopard-2A4 those LOS is 650mm while in Arjun is only 315mm.



Since you are refusing to acknowledge the bumpy inner folds on the inside armor wall behind main sight on the turret,

and placing the gunner 300 mm in front of where he actually is according the photos on the crew hatch,

your calculations based on external evidence on old tanks does not hold water.
No, it hasn't:
Arjun - 1330mm
Leo-2A4 - circa 1200mm

So it's circa 100mm more in Arjun, but of course You don't consider the fact that EMES-15 main sight is smaller then Arjun main sight, and all this have nothing to do about protection becouse special armour blokc after main sight is only 315mm in Arjun and 650mm in Leo-2A0-A4. and only this is important.



Lool - funny statsment and without any conection whit reality:




It's imposible in this layout In Arjun there is only circa 315mm armour after main sight, in Leo-2A4 - 650mm. And when you finally will understand that only one think is important here:
-how many armour is between end of the main sight "doghouse" and crew comperment. In case leo-2 it is 650mm in case Arjun it's circa 315mm.



it's vertical there. I had explain this hundret times. Includin images, photos, part of the videos.

Since you have used a lot of foul words this post of you was deleted. but i answered all the points raised by you in this post in the previous post itself. So this post has no purpose.Also the tank in question on which you take measurements repeatedly is developed according to a different GSQR during the period of Narashima rao's prime minister ship clearly 15 years back when no higher penetration armor piercing rounds were in south asia.

It is the same tank which was shown in 2004 defexpo ten years back.

A lot has changed on ARJUN since then.

 

[ersakthivel]

I can't explain something what exist only in Your brain - it's your ilusion. No single photo or video can proof this what you thing, so Im suprised and confused when I cant't see anything more then VERTICAL BACKPLATE and the same see @Damian, @STGN, @Dejawolf, @methos, etc. but only You can see " bumpy folds". Soory -it't does not exist in reality it's only your imagination or wishfull thinking, co what is here to explain?
It's obvious visible on pictures and videos - vertical backplate.

The same solution is visible for Arjun interior from blumengofilms video - old Arjun model too?



It's only your inlusion and imagination. Im not respond for yours fantasy or imagination. Images and videos proof this what I post (and other users said).


And this seat is slighty before vertical line (created from Tc periscope) so exatly correct whit this my own draw:

See -I have right.


Show me ONE this style solution in ANY tank. It's nonsense - those vision blocki in Arjun roof is some kind of rest after old FCS (very old).

According to the line drawing above the ba holder length seems to be 720 mm and not 530 mm as you have stated in the warning.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well the length of bar holder seems to be around 600 mm or so, not 700 mm as I stated above.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well the length of bar holder seems to be around 600 mm or so, not 700 mm as I stated above.

But as per the above photograph the roof top vision block is situated at the middle of the distance between the gun front tip and the base of the vertical hinge standing crew hatch cover. this distance according to the line drawing in the post above is 2500 mm.

So half of this distance is 1250mm.this is the distance of roof top vision block from gun tip.

if we deduct 700 mm for the main sight cutaway as it is shown from the picture below,

. You still get a minimum of 550 mm LOS armor thickness between the main sight cutaway's back edge and the front edge of roof top vision block.

But if the light channel coming down from the roof top vision block is in slanting configuration as shown in the crew inside picture below

because the roof top vision block is visible above the main gunner's vision block at a height of 200 mm below turret inner roof.

The opening for light is at 1500 mm behind the main gun front tip on the turret. So if we add this extra 250 mm,

the LOS for aromr distance will substantially increase to more than 800 mm.

The fact that the opening for the light is situated is at 1500 mm behind the gun's front tip on the turret can be further measured
d
by dividing the distance between the back seat edge of the Tc and roof top vision block into two equal parts.

One of the two parts will have the same size as that of the crew hole visible above i.e 450 mm. So 2 x 450 mm is 950 mm.


The back seat of the Tc is located at 2500mm behind the gun front tip. So 2500 mm- 1000 mm= 1500 mm.

From this 1500 mm we can deduct the main sight cutaway's 700 mm depth to get 800 mm LOS behind the main sight

This calculation also proves that the Los thickness for armor behind the main sight in ARJUN is close to 800 mm , not 350 mm as it is being argued here.

 

[Dejawolf]

What will never change is the constant trolling based on old discarded prototypes.

Also I already explained to you a hundred times that you have moved the position of the TC's seat and the gunner more than 200 mm infront to support your false claim of 300 mm LOS behind the main sight all based on the old 2004 defexpo model..

something i noticed a while ago, but which the Arjun "expert" Ershaktivel has still completely failed to notice:
you drew the TC periscope is in the wrong position, you've position it under the loaders periscope. the TC periscope is the cylinder just behind it.