Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Dejawolf]

Since your model above won't be able to explain the picture above you will give the same incorrect reply a thousand times , perhaps.

the entire gunner's seat is visible along with the headrest of Tc's seat from the photo taken vertically above the crew hole.

it means the front edge of the gunner's seat is 2000mm behind the turret front gun tip according to the line drawing.

your 3d model below also shows the wrongly the gunner sitting at a place 300 mm in front of where he actually must be according to the photo of the crew hatch hole above.

B]So correct it. Don't mislead militarista to post misguided drawings based on your wrong model as he did above.

Don't misguide my close friend milarista, please.
.[/B]

[
Which means that the driver seat in the above draw must be moved 300 mm behind in the following draw to comply with that photo.
.

that's the gunners seat, the driver sits in the hull next to the hll ammunition storage. and its only possible to move the gunners seat 300mm back if you saw off the commanders legs.
if the arjun turret was about 400-500mm taller, you might be able to position the commander in the turret bustle. but the arjun turret is flatter and wider than the leopard turret, while turret ring size is about the same.

 

[ersakthivel]

something i noticed a while ago, but which the Arjun "expert" Ershaktivel has still completely failed to notice:
you drew the TC periscope is in the wrong position, you've position it under the loaders periscope. the TC periscope is the cylinder just behind it.

Those drawings and the mistakes in them are not mine. You are posting without even understanding such a simple thing.

those were from militarysta who is penning his own drawing according to your 3D model of some tank (which you and the guy who did this incorrect drawing call as ARJUN ).

you posted here, which is yet to be designed in the way you want it according to your 3D model.

All I did was to point out the mistakes that came across my eye.

 

[ersakthivel]

that's the gunners seat, the driver sits in the hull next to the hll ammunition storage. and its only possible to move the gunners seat 300mm back if you saw off the commanders legs.
if the arjun turret was about 400-500mm taller, you might be able to position the commander in the turret bustle. but the arjun turret is flatter and wider than the leopard turret, while turret ring size is about the same.

This photo proves the gunner's seat position is not according to your 3D model.

So either you should ask the Indian army to redesign the tank as per your Volvo airbus like 1 meter wide fully reclining seat

or,

So you should ask Indian army to appoint two extra crew men per tank to saw off the commander's feet every time he enters the tank, I guess.

If the gunner sits straight without leaning back ,the big white display in front of the Tc is in a vertical straight line with gunner's head. In fact the backrest of the gunner's seat is situated wel behind the big white display in front of the Tc.

In your model it is 300 mm behind the gunner's seat back.

If you don't even accept this, nothing much can be done.

So no amount of Arjun is wider and shorter , to justify your patently wrong 3D model is going to be of any help.

There is no justification for your fancy 350 mm LOS for armor behind main sight argument.

it looks more than 700mm in any way you look at it.

 

[Dejawolf]

Those drawings and the mistakes in them are not mine. You are posting without even understanding such a simple thing.

those were from militarysta who is penning his own drawing according to your 3D model of some tank (which you and the guy who did this incorrect drawing call as ARJUN ).

you posted here, which is yet to be designed in the way you want it according to your 3D model.

All I did was to point out the mistakes that came across my eye.

well, you didn't notice this obvious mistake. why? even i noticed it... that picture has been posted 3 or 4 times now, if you knew the arjun as well as you claim, and make all the bold statements you do, you should have picked up on this when i did. but you didn't, for over a month, you haven't noticed that particular flaw, instead you've been making your usual random statements.

oh and btw, since you didn't notice, that drawing is the official military drawing of the arjun.

 

[Dejawolf]

If the gunner sits straight without leaning back ,the big white display in front of the Tc is in a vertical straight line with gunner's head. In fact the backrest of the gunner's seat is situated wel behind the big white display in front of the Tc.

In your model it is 300 mm behind the gunner's seat back.

If you don't even accept this, nothing much can be done.

and how exactly did you measure that the display is exactly 300mm behind gunners seat back in my model?
go on, i'm eager to hear your expertly formed opinion, since i'm only a single picture of my turret from the side to make a fool out of your statement.
my "dimensionless" 3d model is actually adjusted to conform with the official line drawing from the military, so maybe you should head off to DRDO to make your complaints.

 

[The Last Stand]

my "dimensionless" 3d model is actually adjusted to conform with the official line drawing from the military, so maybe you should head off to DRDO to make your complaints.

Which official line drawing?

 

[Dejawolf]

Which official line drawing?

this one from bharat rakshak. it's the same one that Militarista based his drawing off.

Arjun Mk.1 Main Battle Tank [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

there's also this drawing:

from CVRDE in chennai.

 

[The Last Stand]

@Dejawolf, we don't know if that line drawing was by CVRDE or DRDO.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

VRDE is a branch of DRDO..

The Drawings are correct from India today, But has not much to do with the topic which is basically from the turret..

@Dejawolf, we don't know if that line drawing was by CVRDE or DRDO.

 

[The Last Stand]

VRDE is a branch of DRDO..

The Drawings are correct from India today, But has not much to do with the topic which is basically from the turret..

I meant, the Bharat Rakshak drawings might not be official, unless @Dejawolf or you manages to trace it down to a DRDO newsletter.

India Today is a media entity, I would not place so much trust in them.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BR once is not official..

India today personal took photos inside Avadi plant ( Museum room ) and now they are selling it online..

I meant, the Bharat Rakshak drawings might not be official, India Today is a media entity, I would not place so much trust in them.

 

[ersakthivel]

and how exactly did you measure that the display is exactly 300mm behind gunners seat back in my model?
go on, i'm eager to hear your expertly formed opinion, since i'm only a single picture of my turret from the side to make a fool out of your statement.
my "dimensionless" 3d model is actually adjusted to conform with the official line drawing from the military, so maybe you should head off to DRDO to make your complaints.

according to which official drawing you got a width of 2.9 meters at the turret center for Arjun?

you picked the BR side view of the Arjun tank posted by Pmaitra here with dimensions,

And there was no official front elevation and plan view published by DRDO with dimensions till date,

So there is nothing official about your 3D models,You don't even know where to take measurement in perspective planes for a realistic comparison.

Now this photo proves that the roof top vision block opens just 1000 mm in front of the Tc's seat

So inside opening of roof vision block inside the turret is situated at 1500 mm behind the gun tip, Because (2500mm-1000 mm=1500 mm)

deduct 700 mm for main sight cutaway from this 1500 mm.

, which gives a LOS behind armor for main sight at at least as 800 mm,

because

 

[ersakthivel]

and how exactly did you measure that the display is exactly 300mm behind gunners seat back in my model?
go on, i'm eager to hear your expertly formed opinion, since i'm only a single picture of my turret from the side to make a fool out of your statement.
my "dimensionless" 3d model is actually adjusted to conform with the official line drawing from the military, so maybe you should head off to DRDO to make your complaints.

And you guys are consistently claiming that the above is the official plan view with scale and dimensions, which has no credibility,

The scale on the drawing is your scale and not DRDO's scale.

For example you have no source to claim that the hatch cover measures 500 mm.photo based measurement comes to around 550 mm minimum.

And not a single dimension is marked on this drawing and no scale or nameplate is mentioned.

The turret at the plane of crew hatch measures 5.6 times the crew hatch cover width, which is perpendicular to the camera, so no perspective distortion.

If we take 550 mm as crew hatch width then,

i.e 550x5.6=3080 mm,

No fancy rulers, no perspective factoring, just a bang on straight line measurement that can be checked by any body.

If you want how one arrives at 550 mm as crew hatch cover width,then download the following page.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/HeadAnthropometry.JPG

Down load the above page.
See the measurement number 3 --the breadth of the face measured across most lateral projections of the cheekbones

For average men it is 145mm.

I took the face breadth number-3 in the chart because that portion of his face is clearly visible and this ratio can be checked by any member of this forum.

because his ears were covered by helmet i did not take that measurement I did not take measurement number 1 In the chart to avoid the confusion..



In the same photo above the ratio of

hatch cover width behind the TC/same distance no-3 of human face as mentioned above is close to 4.

So 4x145 mm=580 mm.

Thats why I accepted the crew hatch cover width as minimum 550 mm when it was mentioned once in this forum.

GOT IT?

There are a raft of other techniques posted by me as well which are all consistent with this measurement technique.

But you have no proof for your claim of turret width at the crew hatch center being less than 3 meters.

You used the same chart once to claim that the turret front of ARJUN measures close to 2800 mm odd mm, which I did not challenge as per the same human head width chart the width at the turret center comes close to 3100 mm, which you are disputing now, How strange?

 

[ersakthivel]

and how exactly did you measure that the display is exactly 300mm behind gunners seat back in my model?
go on, i'm eager to hear your expertly formed opinion, since i'm only a single picture of my turret from the side to make a fool out of your statement.
my "dimensionless" 3d model is actually adjusted to conform with the official line drawing from the military, so maybe you should head off to DRDO to make your complaints.

According to this image atleast 600mm of gap is there between the turret outer side wall and the end of commander's periscope,

because a distance more than the width of the hatch cover is there between the outer side wall of Arjun turret and the Tc's periscope or panaromic sight(the black cylinder near the edge of the crew hatch)

So your claims of just 70 mm thick rha plate being the side turret armor is also not correct.

 

[Dejawolf]

according to which official drawing you got a width of 2.9 meters at the turret center for Arjun?

you picked the BR side view of the Arjun tank posted by Pmaitra here with dimensions,

And there was no official front elevation and plan view published by DRDO with dimensions till date,

So there is nothing official about your 3D models,You don't even know where to take measurement in perspective planes for a realistic comparison.

Now this photo proves that the roof top vision block opens just 1000 mm in front of the Tc's seat

So inside opening of roof vision block inside the turret is situated at 1500 mm behind the gun tip, Because (2500mm-1000 mm=1500 mm)

deduct 700 mm for main sight cutaway from this 1500 mm.

, which gives a LOS behind armor for main sight at at least as 800 mm,

because

tell, me, how did you conclude that the commanders display is 300mm behind the gunners seat in my 3d model? i am eager to hear your method of measuring.

 

[ersakthivel]

tell, me, how did you conclude that the commanders display is 300mm behind the gunners seat in my 3d model? i am eager to hear your method of measuring.

1.O. K. post 2d side view of your 3d model above and mark the distance in mm between the gunner's seat back and commander's display.

2.Mark the distance in mm between the main gunner's sight block and the Tc's seat head rest in the photo below on the same 2D view of your above 3d model.

3. In the picture below the gunner's seat is fully visible from the crew hole top photo. So the gunner's seat is completely visible in the photo taken above crew hole .

The front edge of the crew hole is in line with the gunner's seat.

What is the distance between front tip of the gun mantlet plate and the crew hole front edge in the line drawing below?

A minimum of 2000 mm to be precise.

Do you agree or not?

So you plot the 2000 mm measurement line from the gun mantlet plate front tip to gunner's seat head rest in your drawing correctly.

The main sight cutaway is also on the same plane . it takes up 700 mm of this 2000 mm space. Am I right?

So 1300 mm space is still there.

The distance between the gunner's seat back head rest and the back end of the main gunner's sight block can not be more than 500 mm by any measure.

So if we deduct 500 mm from 1300 mm it gives 800 mm.

And the opening for the roof top vision block in side Arjun turret is on the same vertical line as that of the back of the main gunner's sight block. So other than armor there is nothing left to occupy this space.

So if you post the 2d cross sectional side view of your 3d model in the picture with following measurements,

1. A ----------the distance between gun mantlet plate front tip and the back edge of the main sight cutaway= 700mm according to your previous posts.

2. B ----------- The distance between the back edge of the main sight cutaway and the opening for roof top vision block inside Arjun turret (the back edge of the main gunner's sight block is in vertical line with roof top vision block opening inside Arjun turret) = 800 mm(LOS for composite armor)


3. C ---------- the distance between the back edge of the main gunner's sight block and the gunner's seat back head rest=500 mm.


4. D ------------


3. C------------ The dis

 

[ersakthivel]

tell, me, how did you conclude that the commanders display is 300mm behind the gunners seat in my 3d model? i am eager to hear your method of measuring.

So post a 2D view of your following 3 D model above with the following four dimensions.


second part of my post no- 5196.

1. A ----------the distance between gun mantlet plate front tip and the back edge of the main sight cutaway= 700mm according to your previous posts.

2. B ----------- The distance between the back edge of the main sight cutaway and the opening for roof top vision block inside Arjun turret (the back edge of the main gunner's sight block is in vertical line with roof top vision block opening inside Arjun turret) = 800 mm(LOS for composite armor)

3. C ---------- the distance between the back edge of the main gunner's sight block and the gunner's seat back head rest=500 mm.


4. D ------------the distance between the gunner's seat back head rest and the vertical standing crew hatch cover in the line drawing posted below = 500mm. gunner's seat back head rest is in vertical straight line with the front arc edge of the round crew hole.

So A + B + C + D = 700 + 800 + 500 + 500 = 2500 mm.


1.The arrow marked measurement line A starts at the gun mantlet plate tip and ends at the main sight cutaway back side edge.

2. B starts at the where A ends and stops at back edge of the gunner's main sight bloc back edge.


3. C starts at the point where B ends and stops at the back side of the gunner's seat headrest's back edge.


4. D starts at where C ends and stops at the swivel or the base of the vertical standing crew hatch cover base in the only line drawing dimensions posted in this post above.

5.The ending point of line D is positioned at exactly 2500 mm behind the gun mantlet plate front tip of Arjun turret.


So all the four consistent continuous measurement marking arrow lines will give you undeniable evidence of very strong protection behind Arjun main sight back side contrary to your views based on faulty 3 D model is my opinion based on the line drawing and the photographs in this page,

But I have never seen the Arjun tank . So I don't claim it is the concrete truth from my first hand experience of arjun. but the measurement leaves no doubt , especially Arjun turret is not only shorter and wider , but longer than Leo- 2 as well. it is this small crucial detail you omit.

even if you don't mark distance B as 800 mm and mark it simply as X as it is unknown.

700+ X + 500 + 500 = 2500 mm. is the equation.

So value for X is nothing other than 800 mm is my calculation based on photos of various prototypes.


I have nothing more to add on this topic and treat it as closed if you don't mark all these four distances on the 2 D side view of your 3 D model in this post. Because i don't believe in continuing a debate where there are no straight answers to simple straight forward questions.

As this debate has already took more than 50 hours off my work , if you don't post the 2 d draw with these dimensions , please don't bother me.

 

[Dejawolf]

not that it will change your set-in-stone opinion.

 

[The Last Stand]

not that it will change your set-in-stone opinion.

Very nice. You have worked hard for this one, I can see that. How much time did take for you to come up with this?

He will dispute the length of the turret now.

 

[The Last Stand]

@ersakthivel, It would be better if you actually mark distances on an image to show your point. Otherwise, it is tough to follow.