Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Dejawolf]

dribble.

show me your drawing expertise, and align those vison blocks instead of going off on a tangent. go on, why are you afraid of doing it? because it will be yet another Nail in your arguments coffin?

 

[ersakthivel]

show me your drawing expertise, and align those vison blocks instead of going off on a tangent. go on, why are you afraid of doing it? because it will be yet another Nail in your arguments coffin?

The head rest of the TC is directly below the standing vertical crew hatch cover

The front edge of the Tc's seat is about 400mm in front of the standing vertical crew hatch in my drawing.

Look at the photos below . Same arrangement is there. Now who is going off on a tangent.

 

[Dejawolf]

The head rest of the TC is directly below the standing vertical crew hatch cover

The front edge of the Tc's seat is about 400mm in front of the standing vertical crew hatch in my drawing.

Look at the photos below . Same arrangement is there. Now who is going off on a tangent.

and the turret ring is not at the level of the turret ring in that picture
TC seat should be under the turret as seen in several photos of the arjun, in short, your image isn't even close to reality.

 

[The Last Stand]

If you are not able to do it. Please don't blame it on your short term memory loss.

I barely have enough time to reply to a few posts here, you want me to compare line diagrams with real images.

Sorry, I will take a long time to do that, and I will post my results.

 

[militarysta]

According to the line drawing above the ba holder length seems to be 720 mm and not 530 mm as you have stated in the warning.

BUAHAHAHAHHA sure:

It's what time when you where wrong?

Sorry - 520-530mm is max, so my estimatous here:

Is correct. You where wrong again

 

[ersakthivel]

BUAHAHAHAHHA sure:

It's what time when you where wrong?

Sorry - 520-530mm is max, so my estimatous here:

Is correct. You where wrong again

Whatever the holder length may be , the debat is alreday over.

And I corrected it in my next post to 630 mm

And I did not use that holder length any where in my concluding post.

Go and ask the guy who marked 1080 mm at the end of the bar holder length , not me.

So no more buhahas and no more wretched arguments are needed.You guys are conclusively proven wrong and that is the end of the debate as far as I am concerned.

 

[ersakthivel]

I barely have enough time to reply to a few posts here, you want me to compare line diagrams with real images.

Sorry, I will take a long time to do that, and I will post my results.

Don't waste your valuable time. Your drawing will also look like the same as the line drawing here.

I answered you because you are questioned everything without giving any constructive arguments.

I know very well that you are not going to spend the 20 minutes needed to do that drawing.

 

[ersakthivel]

BUAHAHAHAHHA sure:

It's what time when you where wrong?

Sorry - 520-530mm is max, so my estimatous here:

Is correct. You where wrong again

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The distance you marked as 1330 mm was marked as 1080 mm by DEJAWOLF whose 3D models you like so much.

I told him hundred times. But he is not listening. Correction of This Big Mistake alone will add 250 mm to his 380 mm LOS calculation. So it will reach 630 mm.

And further correction suggested by me will add another 200 plus mm even on these old prototypes which are not production models.

 

[pmaitra]

@ersakthivel,

What is the source of those human measurements? Tank crew are typically not the tallest and broadest of men.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel,

What is the source of those human measurements? Tank crew are typically not the tallest and broadest of men.

Those human measurements are superfluous to this topic. They were given by Dejawolf. Not me.And these measurements are superfluous to the topic on hand.

According to the line drawing given by you the rod like bar holder on the turret roof top ends at a point 1400 mm approx from the turret tip(including the plate on the gun mantlet, located at 6.5 meters from the hull back extreme point on your scale).

The roof top opening for light is at a point 100 mm approx infront of the end of bar holder.

So the roof top opening for light (roof top vision block ) is situated at a point approx 1300 mm behind the front gun tip.


Militarista's post specifies that the roof top opening for the light just at the end of the bar holder is located at 1330 mm from the gun front tip.

But Dejawolf consistently says that this roof top opening for day light(roof top vision block ) is at a point just 1080 mm from the front tip of the gun to support his claim of just 380 mm LOS for armor behind main sight of Arjun.

That was what I was commenting on.

Both are arriving at 300 mm plus LOS for armor behind main sight , but they give two different distances for the back end point of bar holder as 1080 mm and 1330 mm.

 

[Bhadra]

@ersakthivel,

What is the source of those human measurements? Tank crew are typically not the tallest and broadest of men.

Except in India, Europe, America and Pakistan. In India tallest dominate as tank men ! When you say that you mean in previous Soviet Union !

 

[ersakthivel]

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Please give your views on this issue of different LOS measurements behind the main sight on Arjun in post-5250 and 5248,

 

[militarysta]

Militarista's post specifies that the roof top opening for the light just at the end of the bar holder is located at 1330 mm from the gun front tip.

But Dejawolf consistently says that this roof top opening for day light(roof top vision block ) is at a point just 1080 mm from the front tip of the gun to support his claim of just 380 mm LOS for armor behind main sight of Arjun.

That was what I was commenting on.

I deeply sugest You consider from whicht point Dejawolf start those 1080mm distance, and from what point I had strated 1330mm distance
There is no difrence.
And this is true:

becouse all is visible on top turret photos, and bar holder lenght is known (520mm).

And when you mark Dejawolf draw on those Arjun draw than all dimensions are correct. 1080mm is mesuret from diffrent point then my 1330mm value. It's really visible.

 

[ersakthivel]

I deeply sugest You consider from whicht point Dejawolf start those 1080mm distance, and from what point I had strated 1330mm distance
There is no difrence.
And this is true:

becouse all is visible on top turret photos, and bar holder lenght is known (520mm).

And when you mark Dejawolf draw on those Arjun draw than all dimensions are correct. 1080mm is mesuret from diffrent point then my 1330mm value. It's really visible.

Your 1330 mm point and Dejawolf's 1080 mm point are both the same. They both mark the position of Roof top vision block from the front turret tip of Arjun to decide the LOS behind main sight.

which is also same as the point between blue and yellow measuring rectangle(note the inside opening of light for the roof top vision block on top of Turret roof) in my drawing below.

 

[ersakthivel]

I deeply sugest You consider from whicht point Dejawolf start those 1080mm distance, and from what point I had strated 1330mm distance
There is no difrence.
And this is true:

becouse all is visible on top turret photos, and bar holder lenght is known (520mm).

And when you mark Dejawolf draw on those Arjun draw than all dimensions are correct. 1080mm is mesuret from diffrent point then my 1330mm value. It's really visible.

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where is the roof top vision block in the picture above?

How far away it is from the front tip of the turret(base of the main gun)?

It is at least 550 mm behind the back wall of the (dog house) main sight cutaway according to the picture.The main sight cutaway occupies 700 mm length from the front tip of the turret (at it's center).

Simply saying it is located in the middle point of the distance(2500 mm according to line drawing below) between the front turret tip(including the covering plate over gun mantle, i.e the base of the main gun ) and the vertical standing crew hatch cover .

So the roof top vision block is at 1250 mm behind the front turret tip(including the covering plate over gun mantle, i.e base of the main gun ) .

So it is minimum 1250 mm behind the front tip of the turret at the center.

So how can the model below be correct, which marks the same distance as 1080 mm to arrive at a LOS of just 380 mm behind the main sight for armor ?

You must give a proper reply.Correct or wrong. Who measures it from which place does not matter.because it is no use dragging this on forever. That's why I am calling the attention of so many guys to this topic.

In fact the gunner's seat back rest is clearly behind the big white display as per the photo above. But in your model the gunner's seat back rest is more than 400 mm in front of the big white display.

Correct that and bring them in vertical line and you will get a true picture.

There is no way Tc 's foot is going to scratch the back of the gunner as per your model. SO you have to scale down the TC and gunner size as well.





The driver seat is clearly visible from the photo above crew hatch , where is it in your 3D model?

Considering the lower height of gunner's seat most of his knee space room will go above the gunner's head according to the photo. But you have purposely marked his knees bending behind the back of the gunner's seat in an effort to enlarge the crew compartment and show a lesser LOS behind the main sight,

From this photo below the gunner's seat back rest is inline with the edge of the crew hatch hole at 2000 mm distance behind the gun mantle plate front tip,
Because the gun end point is visible in both the photos which marks the position of the gunner's seat back rest .

LOOK there is no room for the TC to place his foot below the gunner's seat back rest as shown in your model above.

And his knees are over the head of the gunner as per the photos above not behind the gunner's seat back rest.

As per these photos the gunner's head is directly below the big white display ,

Because both the gun end point and the white display in front of the Tc are visible on a same vertical line at a point more than

2000 mm distance behind the gun mantle plate front tip, you are cleverly misrepresenting the whole arrangement to suit your needs.

but in your model gunner's head is more than 300 mm in front of the big white display.


but in your photo it is far ahead of the 2000 mm mark.

Look at the total height of the crew compartment it is 2 meters only as per the scale in the line drawing.

But in your model the gunner alone measures more than 1.5 meter in seated position , So you must down scale the crew men size as well.

Does an average indian male measures 1.5 meters in seated position? A bit lower is my opinion.

 

[ersakthivel]

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@DivineHeretic

The drawing below is a much better representation of Arjun turret and it shows the LOS behind the main sight clearly.

The yellow rectangle is the main sight cutaway measuring 700 mm on scale. And the distance between the end of the inlaid photo and the back edge of the main sight cutaway is the armor thickness behind main sight. It is around 800 mm approx.

Note the vision blocks above the Tc's head in the in laid photo clearly matches the edge of the crew hole in the line drawing with scale and dimensions.

The rough draw may not be upto scale, it is a rough and ready alteration of what militarista posted to communicate my point of view.

1. A ----------the distance between gun mantlet plate front tip and the back edge of the main sight cutaway= 700mm according to your previous posts.

2. B ----------- The distance between the back edge of the main sight cutaway and the opening for roof top vision block inside Arjun turret (the back edge of the main gunner's sight block is in vertical line with roof top vision block opening inside Arjun turret) = 800 mm(LOS for composite armor)


3. C ---------- the distance between the back edge of the main gunner's sight block and the gunner's seat back head rest=500 mm.

4. D ------------the distance between the gunner's seat back head rest and the vertical standing crew hatch cover in the line drawing posted below = 500mm. gunner's seat back head rest is in vertical straight line with the front arc edge of the round crew hole.

So A + B + C + D = 700 + 800 + 500 + 500 = 2500 mm.


1.The red rectangle marked measurement A starts at the gun mantlet plate tip and ends at the main sight cutaway back side edge.

2. The blue rectangle signifying B starts at the where A ends and stops at back edge of the gunner's main sight bloc back edge.


3. The yellow rectangle C starts at the point where B ends and stops at the back side of the gunner's seat headrest's back edge.


4.The green rectangle D starts at where C ends and stops at the swivel or the base of the vertical standing crew hatch cover base in the only line drawing dimensions posted in this post above.


1. the length of A-------The red rectangle's length is 700 mm.

2.The length of B-------The red rectangle's length is 800 mm.

3.The length of C-------The red rectangle's length is 500 mm.

4.The length of D-------The red rectangle's length is 500 mm.

A + B + C + D =2500 mm.

The end of the green rectangle D is exactly at 2500 mm from the front tip of the gun mantle plate according to the drawing with dimensions from where you supposedly took you measurements for your 3D model.

The following photo validates my measurement of the length of the green (D) and yellow(C) rectangle.

1.The Tc seat edge the ending point of the yellow rectangle is situated at 2500 mm behind the gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

2.The gunner's seat , the ending point of the yellow rectangle is locate at at 2000 mm from gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

3.Since the Tc himself has just 500 mm seat breadth the gunner too will have the same 500 mm. So the ending point of the blue rectangle is at 1500 mm from gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

And the photo above is a clear proof that the roof top vision block brings light into the Arjun turret in a slanting rectangular channel at the point of the end of the blue rectangle i.e a point in vertical line with the back side of the gunner's main vision block with binocular like eye pieces.

4.Also since the main sight cutaway stops at 700 mm from the gun mantle plate tip ,

according to the line drawing with scale measurements the ending point of the red rectangle , is locates at 700 from the gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.


So 1500 mm- 700 mm =800 mm is the LOS armor thickness behind the main sight without any doubt.

And the roof top vision block brings light to the gunner's main vision block through a slating rectangular channel.

If the main sight is pushed up like the latest model LEOs the Arjun can have 300 mm more LOS behind the main sight than any LEO model, because it's turret is longer and lower than LEO.

So any 380 mm LOS or 300 mm LOS behind the main sight is pointless according to the photo proofs
So all the four consistent continuous measurement marking arrow lines will give you undeniable evidence of very strong protection behind Arjun main sight back side contrary to your views based on faulty 3 D model is my opinion based on the line drawing and the photographs in this page,

But I have never seen the Arjun tank . So I don't claim it is the concrete truth from my first hand experience of arjun. but the measurement leaves no doubt , especially Arjun turret is not only shorter and wider , but longer than Leo- 2 as well. it is this small crucial detail you omit

 

[methos]

Note the vision blocks above the Tc's head in the in laid photo clearly matches the edge of the crew hole in the line drawing with scale and dimensions.

No, just look at the drawing and then again at the photo. Is it too obvious how the photo has to be scaled?

 

[ersakthivel]

No, just look at the drawing and then again at the photo. Is it too obvious how the photo has to be scaled?

Only a few vision blocks are visible because many were above camera line. And the Tc's seat head rest is directly below the vertical standing crew hatch cover. So no errors in scaling.

The front edge of the TC's seat is about 400 mm infront of the vertical standing crew hatch cover which is also properly reflected in my drawing.

The front edge of the Tc's seat is in a correct position according to the line drawing and photos over crew hatch.
Read the post 5255 in full for all proper explanations.

Look at the position of vision blocks over the Tc's head according to the photo below.It is properly reflected i my scaled down version of the in laid photo into the turret. So no painful mistakes anywhere.

And claims of 380 mm LOS armor behind main sight are just stupid.

Look at the standing vertical crew hatch cover and the Tc's seat directly below it , almost in vertical line with standing crew hatch.My drawing correctly reflects this. So no mistakes any where.

 

[ersakthivel]

No, just look at the drawing and then again at the photo. Is it too obvious how the photo has to be scaled?

If you have contrary view point scale and post it.I gave you a categorical explanation why there is no mistake

My idea was to fix the TC seat head rest and Tc seat's front edge at correct places according to the line drawing. Then there are no errors in scaling it.
. So what is the other obvious way of scaling the photo according to your view point?

Do you think if the Tc's seat front edge and head rest must be at some other place? If so,

Do it and post.

 

[Dejawolf]

Those human measurements are superfluous to this topic. They were given by Dejawolf. Not me.And these measurements are superfluous to the topic on hand.

they are only "superfluous" to you because they prove you wrong.