Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ersakthivel]

Also the binocular like eyepieces below the turret front main sight eyepiece box is not in line with the left edge of the green box's left side wall.

The eye pieces are not at the center of the main sight turret front green box. this crucial fact will also have important implication for estimating LOS thickness behind the main sight as well.

 

[Pandora]

3D Rendered By InakiKarras on deviantART

 

[ersakthivel]

updated my model, mostly in mantlet area:

it is the 33 pixel (driver's head width)distance between the edge of the pivot holder for mantlet plate and main sight edge covered by frontal armor that is missing in your 3d model.

Do you see the white armor block behind the gunner's eyepiece in the second picture on the front row.

If you have any doubts just enlarge that picture and you will know.

Look at the same column in the picture below as well.the smooth finish of the right side white wall with no dark shadows indicate that there is no gap between the orange or yellow gunner's FCS box. SO there is no gap between the gunner's FCS box and the white column.

it has an LOS of 700 mm is my contention and this piece is missing in your 3d models as well.

 

[Dejawolf]

can you explain the curvature on the inner turret wall of ARJUN near the crew seat?

What occupies the space covered by curvature? certainly not storage box.Because storage boxes are well outside of the curvature,

i have explained this several times before. and it can be seen in the 3d model already.

again:

 

[ersakthivel]

i have explained this several times before. and it can be seen in the 3d model already.

again:

By the same toke the four and a half head distance between the back of the Tc's head and the yellow box above the gunner must measure no more than 900 mm.

Because the same wiki link you posted says that the from side breadth of the head is just 200 mm for men.

Then 2500mm(distance of the Tc's seat back from turret)-(700mm(main sight cutaway)+900 mm(4and a half head width))=900mm.

This 2500 mm distance is between the Tc's seat back directly below the standing vertical hatch cover and ARJUN gun turret front gun plate.

Please don't claim that this disatnce is from the vision block behind Tc's head and turret front edge.

because it is clear from the crew hacth top picture that Tc's seat back is vertically in line with the standing crew hatch cover.

The vision block behind Tc's head is located well behind the vertical standing hatch cover.

in the line drawing with dimensions supplied by P MAITRA on;y the vertical hatch cover stands exactly 2500 mm behind the turret gun front plate.

Not the vision blocks behind Tc's head(which is right below the cuppola ring covering the hatch hole in my estimation.)


So there is 700(if we deduct 200 mm for the thickness of orange box above the gunner) mm space for the composite armor behind the Main sight. CONFIRMED.

[/IMG]

where is this 700 space between the back of the yellow FCS box in front of the gunner and the the back side of the main sight cutaway?

if you correct your models to reflect the 900 mm space , you can clearly locate the 700 mm thick armor block shown in the second of the top row photos posted below.Just magnify it and you will see the 700 mm approx thick armor block.

So ARJUN has same frontal protection as LEO-2 is now proved.

With side storage boxes getting converted into composite armor blocks in ARJUN mk-2, there is no weakness in side armor as well.

 

[Dejawolf]

attachment of FCS box to roof:

based on these pictures.

 

[Dejawolf]

i still fail to see where my model is inconsistent with the pictures?

 

[ersakthivel]

attachment of FCS box to roof:

if the gunner's main sight FCS box is fixed like this, where is the space for gunner's reserve sight that is situated left of the main sight?
based on these pictures.

Are you really serious ?


What is an operational tank?

the one in which the india today reporter is fiddling with?

or the one below?

Where are the metal strips that attach the fcs box to the roof as seen in your india today photo?

In operational ARJUn tank the FCS box is fixed on the sloped armor wall behind the main sight , not hanging below the roof like the arrangement on India today photo. look at bluemango stills.

 

[Dejawolf]

look at bluemango stills.

i did, thats why i posted it along with the indiatoday image.

all the parts are there, just partially obscured by the cables and light. it makes sense that the rig in the simulator matches the one in the real tank, that way they can re-use the real components from the tank. thats what the danes did when they created their simulation cabinets.

 

[ersakthivel]

attachment of FCS box to roof:

If the roof vision block is high above the orange FCS box as per your 3d model how is it visible in the top left corner of the second row photos?

That too at the same height as that of bottom of the vision block over the Tc' s head?

bottom of the vision blocks over the Tc's head is at least 200 below the roof level of ARJUN turret.

The roof of the ARJUn turret is not visible in the second row photo.

So the roof vision block is high above the orange FCS box as per your 3d model no way it can fit into the photo .

So obvious contradictions,

You are yet to find a place for gunner's reserve sight in your 3d model which lies left of the gunner's binocular like main sight box below the orange vision box.

Any explanations?




Also in the second photo( on the top row) below ,

there is a visible fold and bump in the inner turret armor wall behind the orange vision box ,

any explanations , can that be factored into your 3d model?

Also the blue optical lense like stuff fitted on the white box is is mounted VERTICALLY on the sides of a white wall well below the dark shadowed roof of ARJUN turret's interior roof in the second photo on the first row below,

Where is it and the black cell phone like stuff is mounted?

Can you add them in your 3d model at the same distance below the ARJUN turret's interior roof?

 

[militarysta]

Any explanations?

Yes, - you have no single idea about how it's placment in tank, you are serching any gap or flaws in 3D model, while it's clearly visible how it's placment ON REAL PHOTO. All is consitst becouse all photos posted by me where taken from bluemango.films -those video was take from one position - the loaders ones. I had explaind hundret times that what you had fail to understand - that what you are taking as "slopped armour" or other is inreality slighty slopped turret roof. All is mounted to the roof: sloppe dorange FCS part, Tc thermal camera monitor, Tc BMS monitor, etc. And in the same roof but before slopped ornage FCS part is mounted turret roof vision block (persicope). All is visible on pictures and I have no idea why you are unable to understand what you can see on the pictures - I even coloured eny single component -like for 5yers old child, but you are still unable to understand really simple think - how is placed gunner, and FCS part ON REALLY GOOD QUALITY PHOTOS.
And this is somethin what I can't understand - you have all on photos -even marked on difrent collours by my. You have Dejawolf 3D model, you have "normal" photos set taken by my from bluemango.films videa, etc.
There is no other option - placment is really simple in Arjun - and Deajwolf posted it in 3D, YOU HAVE THE SAME ON MOST PHOTOS.

 

[ersakthivel]

if A is so high above B as per the above draw and your 3d model ,

how can it be visible BELOW B in the second row photos below?

the only possible explanation AFAIK is there must be a rectangular column extending from roof top below the A til the height of the yellow plate close to it, which cannot be consistent with your 3D model.

if such a rectangular projection column exists then it means there is no empty space behind orange FCS box as per your 3d model is my assumption.

So it may be a LEO-2 like rectangular column through the armor block behind the orange FCS box is a plausible explanation.

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes, - you have no single idea about how it's placment in tank, you are serching any gap or flaws in 3D model, while it's clearly visible how it's placment ON REAL PHOTO. All is consitst becouse all photos posted by me where taken from bluemango.films -those video was take from one position - the loaders ones. I had explaind hundret times that what you had fail to understand - that what you are taking as "slopped armour" or other is inreality slighty slopped turret roof. All is mounted to the roof: sloppe dorange FCS part, Tc thermal camera monitor, Tc BMS monitor, etc. And in the same roof but before slopped ornage FCS part is mounted turret roof vision block (persicope). All is visible on pictures and I have no idea why you are unable to understand what you can see on the pictures - I even coloured eny single component -like for 5yers old child, but you are still unable to understand really simple think - how is placed gunner, and FCS part ON REALLY GOOD QUALITY PHOTOS.
And this is somethin what I can't understand - you have all on photos -even marked on difrent collours by my. You have Dejawolf 3D model, you have "normal" photos set taken by my from bluemango.films videa, etc.
There is no other option - placment is really simple in Arjun - and Deajwolf posted it in 3D, YOU HAVE THE SAME ON MOST PHOTOS.

There is a step in the inner turret roof of ARJUN . You can see the white stepped down wall and the dark shadows above(behind the blue optics )clearly in the picture below.

If you magnify the photo 3 times you can clearly see the downward projection ,

abutting the red horizontal metal strip above the blue optic holding white box

on the right side of the orange sloping FCS box which you haven't acknowledged till now.

This down projection is right behind the main sight on turret front. And this projection seems to gradually come down below the orange FCS box and the white box with blue optic seems to be mounted on the side of this projected wall seeing from the photo.

When we have a 3D model to discuss and see comparison with photos is natural.

Such subjective explanation is not needed,

Just place the parts as per photo evidence in 3d model,

and compare it to the photo, if everything matches there will be no confusion then,

That is what I am trying to do,

Also where is the place for gunner's reserve sight in DEJAWOLF's 3D mode?

.

There is no space left of the gunners main sight block to house this .

So if there is no space we can dispense with reserve sight according to DEJAWOLF's 3D model .

Do you agree or not?

that is the reason that this 3D model is far from representing the turret interior of ARJUN.

Any comments?


Please make useful contribution to the debate.

 

[ersakthivel]

Also where are we going to fit the electrical bulb above the reserve gunner's sight?

Are we going to fit it on top of the gun on the ARJUN turret inner roof?

 

[Dejawolf]

Also where are we going to fit the electrical bulb above the reserve gunner's sight?

Are we going to fit it on top of the gun on the ARJUN turret inner roof?

it's not on top its to the side of the gunners FCS box, as can be seen in another photo. and there's plenty of room between gun and sight for the emergency sight in my model....

 

[ersakthivel]

it's not on top its to the side of the gunners FCS box, as can be seen in another photo. and there's plenty of room between gun and sight for the emergency sight in my model....

mark the place where you intend to fit the gunner's reserve sight and the electric bulb in 3D model.

AFAIK that close to 300 mm lateral space to the left of the orange sloped Gunner's FCS box is not present in your 3d models.

And that is the reason you are getting wrong inferences about LOS armor thickness behind main sight.

In your 3d model the left edge of the vision block over the gunner's roof is in line with the left edge of the inner turret armor wall behind the main sight which is also wrong.

In fact this arrangement belongs to that of LEO. Not ARJUN

 

[Crusader53]

Like I said sometime ago. I think India should sell the Arjun to Taiwan! As she has a vast fleet of obsolete American Tanks that are in desperate need of being replaced. So, if nobody else will sell to Taiwan then why not India??? It could be a sizable order..........we just need to get the two sides together!

 

[ersakthivel]

Like I said sometime ago. I think India should sell the Arjun to Taiwan! As she has a vast fleet of obsolete American Tanks that are in desperate need of being replaced. So, if nobody else will sell to Taiwan then why not India??? It could be a sizable order..........we just need to get the two sides together!

Nothing wrong with that.

but for that to happen Indian army should take a decision to induct ARJUN mk-2 in 1000s to replace the obsolete 1000 plus T-72 MBTs without asking for never ending improvements and weight reduction on ARJUN.

That will spur domestic higher power engine and higher penetration APFSDS ammo R&D .

Then only we can export ARJUN with domestic indian engines at a much cheaper cost to taiwan or any other country,

If they keep on giving ARJUN orders in 120 unit lots and T-90 orders in 300 unit lots, and continue to ride their non existent hobby horse of FMBT ,any hope of reasonable ARJUN numbers in Indian army itself is a mirage.

 

[ersakthivel]

So lets hope Ia gives more orders for ARJUN before any export prospects

 

[ersakthivel]

it's not on top its to the side of the gunners FCS box, as can be seen in another photo. and there's plenty of room between gun and sight for the emergency sight in my model....

The 300 mm distance is the distance between the edge of the main sight box and the edge of the gun mantlet plate behind the driver's head.

this distance is covered by thick turret frontal armor and there is no need for armor wall abutting the gun mantle plate edge(like in LEO) for ARJUN.

this distance is not there in the supposed to be ARJUN 3D model posted by Dejawolf below based on which he estimated some so called weakness behind main sight.

this 300 mm distance is about a 3/4 th of the crew hole dia shown in the model. Where is it present?