Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

You really have no idea what you seen on photo

1. This "blue optic(tc's panromic sight )" on picture no.3 is electric light (on the left from orange slopped box) and on right sight it's indicator turret azimuth -it have nothin common whit ANY panormic sight. It's first.

2. Second - all three parts - electric light on the left form slopped orange FCS part and those indicator turret azimuth on the right are mounted to the turret roof. Picture is done whit some angle and all three parts are mounted to the turret roof. It's clearly visible on photos.

those parts are mounted to the turret roof. You are still thinking that turret roof is slopped armour after main sight. No it's not. But it's funny when you confuse this again and again.

I was pointing out to the blue optical lense like piece on the right of the orange dial box, Everyone knows the one on the left is electric light.

It was not me but DEJAWOLF who said it was panoramic sight,

Whatever the blue optic , whether it is azimuth indicator or anything else it is mounted sideways on the side wall behind the sight,while the electric light is mounted on the roof.

Just magnify the image and it is clearly visible that the blue optic on the right is not located on the roof, irrespective of the angle of the photo.

The roof is well above the blue optic covered in cables and dark shadows

So no whoo haa sloped armor.

The same type of roof vision block arrangement in the middle of the armor shown above in LEO-2, That also explains your small amount of daylight on the tilted orange colored plate below the orange box

can be had on ARJUN as well.JUST NOTICE HOW CLOSE THE OPENING IS TO THE TITLED PLATE IN THE FOLLOWING PICTURE.

It is almost at the level of the head of the gunner

The opening you colored in purple as vision roof block is well below the bottom of the crew hole vision blocks almost at TC's nose level height.

In fact It is almost at the level of the head of the gunner

 

[ersakthivel]

naturally there is no need for any sloping armor in the place you marked with arrow in the following photo as that area is not behind the main sight , but between the main sight and gun mantle plate.As explained in my post 4959 just above.

Vertical vision block is also not there on the arrow mark because it is situated at a place right side of the arrow pointer inline with the main sight.

Since you have much difficulties in understanding the wider width of the ARJUN turret's implication in determining the position of the armor behind the main sight, I am posting another picture below. The area you marked with red arrow as not having armor block doesnot need an armor block there as it is just behind the driver's head in the following picture.

So despite your hard effort at explaining away the E.R, SAKTHIVEL logic of Whoo ha ha sloped armor, the damn thing seems to be sadly present on ARJUN as well.

AFAIK ARJUN and LEO -2 have the same type of frontal turret protection philosophy.

The armor wall in leo -2 starts right at the end of the gun cutaway for mantle plate as there is no space between the mantle plate and main sight in LEO-2.

In ARJUN it starts little space after the end of the mantle plate cutaway as there is a space of about 300 mm between the edges of the main sight and mantle plate.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

You really have no idea what you seen on photo

1. This "blue optic(tc's panromic sight )" on picture no.3 is electric light (on the left from orange slopped box) and on right sight it's indicator turret azimuth -it have nothin common whit ANY panormic sight. It's first.
2. Second - all three parts - electric light on the left form slopped orange FCS part and those indicator turret azimuth on the right are mounted to the turret roof. Picture is done whit some angle and all three parts are mounted to the turret roof. It's clearly visible on photos.

those parts are mounted to the turret roof. You are still thinking that turret roof is slopped armour after main sight. No it's not. But it's funny when you confuse this again and again.

Btw, why are you following some strange naming conventions for some of your historic photos and draws here like,

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3634/[B]arjunfordummies.jpg[/B]
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2659/[B]arjunlosy.jp[/B]g
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hostingassholeprick.jpg

Who recommended this naming conventions?

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

You really have no idea what you seen on photo

1. This "blue optic(tc's panromic sight )" on picture no.3 is electric light (on the left from orange slopped box) and on right sight it's indicator turret azimuth -it have nothin common whit ANY panormic sight. It's first.
2. Second - all three parts - electric light on the left form slopped orange FCS part and those indicator turret azimuth on the right are mounted to the turret roof. Picture is done whit some angle and all three parts are mounted to the turret roof. It's clearly visible on photos.

those parts are mounted to the turret roof. You are still thinking that turret roof is slopped armour after main sight. No it's not. But it's funny when you confuse this again and again.

http://imageshack.us/a/img62/286/assholeprick.jpg

In this photo the roof vision block is marked wrongly just above the gunner's head ,

in the space between the mantle plate and main sight cutaway(right behind the driver;s head).

SO it deserves the name you have given as assholeprick.jpg, I suppose.

Have some decency, while naming the photos.

 

[ersakthivel]

If we download the pic and magnify it 300 percent we can see the white space marked in red as

visible roof vision block looks like a cutaway on the sloped plane as well.

this sloped plane may well have been armored block as that of LEO-2 roof vision block in the middle of the composite armor block.

It's height is also below the bottom of the vision block over the head of TC's crew hatch, clearly suggesting the cutaway white light is not at the roof level.It is placed at a minimum distance of 200 mm below the roof level of ARJUN turret.

AFAIK it possible that the roof vision block cutaway extends through the armor block behind the orange vision box's sloped armor just as that of LEO-2.

it could have been a slanted cutaway from roof level through the armored block as well, considering the visible daylight from the opening.

 

[militarysta]

In this photo the roof vision block is marked wrongly just above the gunner's head ,

in the space between the mantle plate and main sight cutaway(right behind the driver;s head).
.

No, the roof vision block is marked properly - just above gunner "green" vision sight block and it's definetly after main armour. What more - those roof vision block is near edge of armour block after main sight. It's visible on photos too. All is marked properly, you just haven't idea what you see.

On this photo is clearly visible even day light in vison block! It's visible that vision block is placed strictly above gunner main sight vision block. It's visible that turret roof vision block is placed near edge, but still after armour block behind main sight.


Only blind or not very clever person will not see this -those are obvious things visible on photos!

 

[ersakthivel]

No, the roof vision block is marked properly - just above gunner "green" vision sight block and it's definetly after main armour. What more - those roof vision block is near edge of armour block after main sight. It's visible on photos too. All is marked properly, you just haven't idea what you see.

On this photo is clearly visible even day light in vison block! It's visible that vision block is placed strictly above gunner main sight vision block. It's visible that turret roof vision block is placed near edge, but still after armour block behind main sight.

no one denies the daylight from the cutaway.

But the crucial question is what is the height of cutaway?

it is more than 200 mm below the roof level.

Why?

because it lies below the vision blocks above the Tc's head.

So it has the same arrangement as that of LEO-2 turret pics you posted a slanting cutaway through the sloped armored block behind the orange box or main sight.

What you fail to understand is that in ARJUN the gunner is not right behind the main sight.His head is in the place between the wide mantlet plate and the main sight. SO there is no need for ARJUN to have the armor block to start just above the gunner's head as that of LEo is my argument.

It can start a little right to the head of the gunner, because that is where the main sight is located and the pic-3 is further proof of that.(well it seems some one has edited the pic no-3 so that the blue optic mounted on side wall behind the orange FCS box is not to be shown, a pathetic last minute try perhaps.)

Only blind or not very clever person will not see this -those are obvious things visible on photos!

you cannot even understand that there is a gap of close to 300 mm between the mainsight edge and gun mantlet holder edge in ARJUN turret front.

For a person who cannot even comprehend the position of roof vision block in the interior turret photo, comments like this are just evasive tools to heat up the debate.

As I already posted LEo-2's main sight and gun mantle holder cutaway are so close to each other.

But there is a gap 0f close to 300 mm between the main sight and gun mantle holder cutaway in ARJUN .

Please mark that 300 mm in the picture above, to the right of gun mantle holder cutaway and you will clearly understand what I am saying.

 

[The Last Stand]

This thread is turning into a hell hole

 

[ersakthivel]

This thread is turning into a hell hole

Then suggest the way forward,to avoid that.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. We are talking on topic ( Arjun )
2. Technical military thread, And we are talking same here..

As long as there is no abuse of rules of this forum Or smart pant activity..

I see no problem here..

==========
==========

About some details, there are agreement and disagreement, we have to respect each other views and move on..

Such details can be clarified once only when we have photos from makers or from some members..

Then suggest the way forward,to avoid that.

This thread is turning into a hell hole

 

[ersakthivel]

problem starts when people use those photos without any respect for the height, depth and placement of objects , to suit their favored theories.

For example, the armor block above the gunner's head is there in LEO-2 because the main sight is very close to the gun mantlet plate,

In ARJUN , the main sight is some distance away from the gun mantlet plate, so there is no need for armor block to start at the end of gun mantlet plate, because there is already thick frontal turret armor covering the area.Just take a look at the heavy frontal turret armor covering the area behind the driver's head.

AFAIK ,This area is not there in LEO-2, so heavy armor block abutting the gun mantlet cutaway is needed to protect the back side of the main sight.

Then if leo has roof vision block in the middle of the armor block behind main sight it is accepted, but if some one says the same for ARJUN it is declined, WHY such different standards?

 

[Decklander]

Most members on this thread are arguing like four blindmen under an elephant. They just can't fathom out what the hell is it. I once again request all members who are self styled experts of tanks and related tech to show me one single article in which IA the actual user has anything against this tank? They had it in the past but not for the final finished product.
All self styled experts here must know that after WW2, only IA & IA had fought most intense tank battles in the world. The first IA(Indian Army) did it in 1965 & 1971 against superior US tanks of PA, The second IA (Israeli Army) faought in 1967 & 1974 against infirior russian Tanks.
Pls stop this madness and get to ur senses all the so called self styled experts.

 

[p2prada]

only IA & IA had fought most intense tank battles in the world.

PA too.

 

[militarysta]

What you fail to understand is that in ARJUN the gunner is not right behind the main sight.His head is in the place between the wide mantlet plate and the main sight. SO there is no need for ARJUN to have the armor block to start just above the gunner's head as that of LEo is my argument.
(...)
Please mark that 300 mm in the picture above, to the right of gun mantle holder cutaway and you will clearly understand what I am saying.
(...)
In ARJUN , the main sight is some distance away from the gun mantlet plate, so there is no need for armor block to start at the end of gun mantlet plate, because there is already thick frontal turret armor covering the area.Just take a look at the heavy frontal turret armor covering the area behind the driver's head.

On this video:
Inside Out - Arjun Main Battle Tank - Discovery Channel's Documentary On DRDO on Vimeo

from 6:00 is clearly visble when is gunner siting:

Arjun gunner is siting direct as I marked (by red dottd lines) on photo above.

In fornt of Arjun gunner face is vision block, then is circa 300-350mm thick armour and after that is placed space for main sight mehanism (not window block -it's only 40% of sight hight!) and front armour cavity.
This is what not perotected is tank commander front - cause there is no thick armour after main sight "window" -only circa 300-350mm armour. This place is obvious very weak point, while in Leo-2A4 place before Tc face is protected by 2x more thick armour - 650mm special armour cavity.

Then if leo has roof vision block in the middle of the armor block behind main sight it is accepted, but if some one says the same for ARJUN it is declined, WHY such different standards?

Becouse in Arjun there is no roof vision block in the middle of the armor block, but there is vision block behind the armor block behind main sight. And it's huge serious weak gap.

 

[militarysta]

Next evidence when is endinf back place after main sight - line marked from edge of the gunner seat.


The armour block after main sight window is not thicker then merked on light blue area.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We cannot take decision based on one sided view nor take sides, If one feel strongly opposed to some view he has right to debate it..

Its not necessarily have to be in other`s comfort zone, respect each other views and carry on..

My advice : if you think other is wrong then prove that with your superior logic with gud support, none stopping anyone here..

 

[militarysta]

[

And again circa 32cm LOS

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Keep this till Arjun..

For Comparison purpose : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-56.html

 

[ersakthivel]

Most members on this thread are arguing like four blindmen under an elephant. They just can't fathom out what the hell is it. I once again request all members who are self styled experts of tanks and related tech to show me one single article in which IA the actual user has anything against this tank? They had it in the past but not for the final finished product.
All self styled experts here must know that after WW2, only IA & IA had fought most intense tank battles in the world. The first IA(Indian Army) did it in 1965 & 1971 against superior US tanks of PA, The second IA (Israeli Army) faought in 1967 & 1974 against infirior russian Tanks.
Pls stop this madness and get to ur senses all the so called self styled experts.

IA has never had an issue with armor protection in ARJUN. Any armor protection scheme on LEO-2 is easily doable on ARJUN.

The Israeli experts who were brought in as neutral audit party too never complained about such weakness as far as any open source material is concerned.

Only a bunch of foreign bloggers seem to have found some grave issues that escaped the Indian army GSQR forming group and designers at CVRDE, and the operating Ia ARJUN regiments, and saying it's design has so many weak points.

Even though they don't know what is the ground pressure per sq inch, what is the width of the ARJUN turret at front and middle they seem to be sure of so many minus points of ARJUN.

According to them,

challenger still carries rifled gun, but the same gun on ARJUN is obsolete(even though both can fire APFSDS rounds with no technical issues )

Even though they don't know anything about kanchan armor , it is substandard to anything on T-90,

When the photos they post are no way proof of their theories, simple questioning them gets them hot under the collar.

They haven't produced a single photo proof for their contention that there is no beefed up armor behind orange colored FCS box (behind the main sight ) ,all the photos they posted lead to exactly opposite conclusion .

if the space behind the orange FCS box is empty it will be covered with dark shadows, but in each and every photo that space is filled with shining white space, what is that?

 

[ersakthivel]

Next evidence when is endinf back place after main sight - line marked from edge of the gunner seat.


The armour block after main sight window is not thicker then merked on light blue area.

wrong conclusion.

What is the dark shadow like rectangular space below the small plate under orange FCS?

Why can't the same in the middle of the armor placement can be had for the ARJUN vision roof block over turret as that of LOE below?

you are saying that the roof vision block in the above pic(on the second red line) is clearly visible in the picture below.

but why I don't accept is , just look at the light at the second row pictures(at the top left corner, which you claim to be roof vision block on the turret top in the above photo), this opening for light is below the vision block bottoms above Tc crew hatch height.

It simply means that the opening is not at the roof . because if it is at the roof that light could not fit into the photograph whatever the angle of camera.


AFAIK the light at the top left corner and the small orange plate on which the light is falling as you claim in pic no -3 (in post-4967)are so close to each other.That is the reason I suspect that there is some armor around the roof vision block of ARJUN exactly like LEO-2.

And the roof vision block light has a passage in the middle of the armor exactly like LEO-2,

the smooth white wall on the right of the orange FCS box on which blue optic is bolted vertically confirms the same behind the main sight armor block arrangement for ARJUn as that of LEO.

Of course all this what I deduce from the photos you have posted.

from the picture it is quite clear that gunner's head is a bit to the right of the main sight when we see from the front(in the interior it is left of the main sight) due to the gap between the mantlet plate edge and main sight(unlike LEO)