Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Austin

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26cm at least as min estimate, another 40cm if you take the MG..
Thanks , How much in classic tank warfare would that make it vulnerable to first detection and fire compared to say T-90 ?

I am sure T-90MS comes with its own trade off but I suspect some one must have really looked as it carefully at the turret before increasing its height , would be interesting tough.
 

Kunal Biswas

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K-5 will be used for a long time on T-90 and even Arjun Mk2 will use K-5 as ERA.
Thanks , How much in classic tank warfare would that make it vulnerable to first detection and fire compared to say T-90 ?

I am sure T-90MS comes with its own trade off but I suspect some one must have really looked as it carefully at the turret before increasing its height , would be interesting tough.
I am sure its Indian version of K-5 not Russian K-5..

Both are different..

-------------------

Off-topic:

The trade off is the increased space for electronics and other equipment..
 

Damian

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Dont think Kontact-5 is obsolete in true sense , it is not the best though available from russian stable for export.

K-5 will be used for a long time on T-90 and even Arjun Mk2 will use K-5 as ERA.
4S22 Kontakt-5 is not obsolete against most types of APFSDS and HEAT ammunition, especially in the India region, however it is obsolete against at least the best German and American APFSDS ammunition and also tandem HEAT warheads are more capable against it.
 

Austin

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4S22 Kontakt-5 is not obsolete against most types of APFSDS and HEAT ammunition, especially in the India region, however it is obsolete against at least the best German and American APFSDS ammunition and also tandem HEAT warheads are more capable against it.
Yes that is true in this part of the world Kontact 5 is good ...against latest German and American APFSDS K-5 may not be that good but here i am talking about export model Kontact 5 ..... but even with non-export model Kontact-5 certainly wont be very competitive against latest NATO/US round so they moved to Relikt.

But NATO is not our enemy we are partners :)
 

Austin

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Damian do you know if Rehemental would allow export of non DU Sabot that we can use on Arjun tank ?

OR they dont export to non-NATO countries
 

methos

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Rheinmetall can export ammunition if the German Federal Security Council agrees (all arms sales can only happen after the council agrees). Sometimes the German media get's information about the deals which were evaluated by the council - if this happens and the deal was already considered to be "political problematic" (due to the country wanting to buy German arms not caring much of human rights etc.) then the deal will likely be canceled or take very much time (months, years).
However the council does not met in public. There is more or less a rule of thumb: If the U.S. and Isreal do not have something against it and there is no EU embargo, then Germany will also do so. Germany does sell ammunition to a lot of countries - directly to nearly all Leopard 2 users and indirectly (via cooperation with General Dynamics - see here) to all user's of the M1 Abrams except the U.S.

Problematic for India is it's position towards nuclear weapons and possibly corruption and human rights...
 

Austin

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Thats good so we can get APFSDS from Rheinmetall for Arjun with better capabilities than the 3BM42 round.

Though i have came across this news that Rheinmetall for some reason is blacklisted by MOD.

BTW which rounds are we importing the 3BM42 or 3BM42M ?
 

Austin

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Can some one answer the following ,

1 ) From VKS interview he says the production is for 400-425 mm which I suppose is the Mk1 and they then upgraded to 500 mm which I suppose is the MK2

So the Arjun MK1 round has 400-425 mm and Arjun Mk2 is 500 mm ?

Is there other APFSDS rounds under development ?

link to interview

2 ) What is the chamber pressure and velocity does T-90 and Arjun gun fire their APFSDS round ?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Can some one answer the following ,

1 ) From VKS interview he says the production is for 400-425 mm which I suppose is the Mk1 and they then upgraded to 500 mm which I suppose is the MK2

So the Arjun MK1 round has 400-425 mm and Arjun Mk2 is 500 mm ?

Is there other APFSDS rounds under development ?

link to interview

2 ) What is the chamber pressure and velocity does T-90 and Arjun gun fire their APFSDS round ?

1. They said they already worked on 500..

2. Arjun present ammo have MV of 1650m/s & T-90S have 1700m/s..


Though i have came across this news that Rheinmetall for some reason is blacklisted by MOD.

BTW which rounds are we importing the 3BM42 or 3BM42M ?
Only Rheinmetall Air-defense is ban not entire Rheimetail..

3BM42..
 

Damian

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Damian do you know if Rehemental would allow export of non DU Sabot that we can use on Arjun tank ?

OR they dont export to non-NATO countries
To add something here. Currently India have some interesting options. There are licence versions of German Rh-120/L44 and Rh-120/L55 120mm smoothbore guns, avaiable on market. You might be perhaps capable to rearm Arjun with these guns or their licence versions manufactured in South Korea, Japan, perhaps Turkey. There are also Israeli MG251 and MG253 series, and of course American M256/L44.

As for ammunition for these guns, You have even more supliers or possibilities for licence production. Americans might offer KEW, KEW-A1 and KEW-A2 APFSDS, French have OFL120F1 (French version of German DM43), Israelis have their own ammunition. Japanese have JM33 (Japanese version of German DM33) but maybe they have something newer. South Koreans seems to have very good APFSDS ammo too.

HEAT ammunition are actually the same design based on DM12, there are only slight differences in some elements but M830, OECC120F1 and so on, but basically all are just licence versions of DM12.

So India by choosing a smoothbore gun, could have several important benefits.

The gun is better, have longer service life, reduce costs.
India have access to world wide market of different types of ammunition for 120mm smoothbore guns.
India by manufacturing it's own ammunition for such guns, might be interesting supplier on international market, means You can make money.
 

Austin

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Damian , Thats true with Smooth Bore we have many choice and option available.

But right now there is no indication from DRDO that they would move to Smooth Bore from Rifled Barrel for Arjun Mk1 or newer Mk2.

Perhaps the ability to use HESH would keep them there may be for FMBT the may move to Smoot Bore we will see.

May be if these rounds could be fired from Rifled Gun then Army has choice.
 

Damian

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Problems with HESH being outdated, were discussed many times. It is just too easy to make a simple and cheap countermessure against it. I know that for many HE round with programmable fuze might be more expensive but the question is how much more expensive it will be? Especially that such HE round have just one element different from standard HE round, the programmable fuze + a needed modification to tank FCS, but that's all, after tanks recive their modifications, everything else becomes cheap, and additional benefits are clearly visible.

Besides this, Americans and Israelis having incredible experience with modern armored warfare, are working on HE with programmable fuze, the AMP and Kalanit, Americans even want to replace HEAT, MPAT, HEOR and Cannister ammunitions with one single AMP. Germans also have their DM11. Even Russians have their AINET systems with replaceable classic and programmable fuze for their HE ammo.

So we know where future is, and it should not be ignored only because HESH is known, cheap and simple.

So with inducting a smoothbore, India have more benefits than problems with such things like lack of money for such change, or initial problms with logistics. But IMHO it should be done now, not sometime in future and nobody knows when really. Lack in actions means that world will go forward, damn even Pakistanis and Chinese can go with programmable HE ammunition for their tanks by procuring or just copying AINET system. And that's the problem, for example infantry can hide from HESH behind a sand berm, or in a reinforced bunkers with simple steel spaced addon armor plates, these don't even need to be made from armor steel, but just simple and cheap one. While programmable HE gives here incredible advantages with airburst and delay fuze options.
 

Kunal Biswas

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AFAIK, The new Arjun MK-2 feature a New 120mm rifled Gun, IA is sticking with Rifle on Arjun..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Problems with HESH being outdated, were discussed many times. It is just too easy to make a simple and cheap countermessure against it..

HESH is a cheap option with duel capability, HESH will be popular over stander ed HE unless there is a new Programmable HE is offered..

IMI offered such shell but unfortunately IMI is ban..
 

Damian

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The problem is that You can allready purchase such ammunition, from Germans for example the DM11, also used currently by USMC in Afghanistan. In future there also be avaiable American AMP, and there of course is Israeli Kalanit.

I think the main problem is that idiotic policy of banning everyone with even smallest suspicion of coruption. With such policy in the end, everyone might be banned...
 

Kunal Biswas

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can the arjun mk2 fire missiles from the main gun
Yes it can, Some details posted here earlier :





A third generation semi-active laser homing low-weight anti-tank guided missile developed since 1992 and manufactured by Israel Aerospace IndustriesIt has a range of 8 km when launched from a ground platform, and up to 13 km, when deployed from high elevation. The missile hits the target at an accuracy of 0.7 meter CEP and an angle of over 30 degrees, providing effective penetration of up to 800 mm of armor steel with its tandem warhead to deal with add-on reactive armor. LAHAT might also carry embedded active protection system countermeasure capabilities.


 

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