Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[methos]

On Strv 122B they replaced the older front and side armour. This is why the weight increased only by 350 kg. And they never claimed to achieve the same level of frontal protection.
On Leopard 2 Evolution all they could exchange was the side-skirts, as hull and turret did not have applique armour.

http://www.ads.ibd-deisenroth-engin...B Evolution with Unprecedented Protection.pdf

http://www.ads.ibd-deisenroth-engin...-pdfs/brochures_uk/Leopard 2 A4 Evolution.pdf

 

[Damian]

On Strv 122B they replaced the older front and side armour. This is why the weight increased only by 350 kg. And they never claimed to achieve the same level of frontal protection.
On Leopard 2 Evolution all they could exchange was the side-skirts, as hull and turret did not have applique armour.

http://www.ads.ibd-deisenroth-engin...B Evolution with Unprecedented Protection.pdf

http://www.ads.ibd-deisenroth-engin...-pdfs/brochures_uk/Leopard 2 A4 Evolution.pdf

So they also changed the basic composite armor in Strv122B? Interesting. IMHO protection should not be lesser than it was with the older armor package.

Nanotechnology in armor aplications gives new possibilities and should not be ignored by anyone who is serious in AFV's development.

And we should end here.

 

[Austin]

During the whole debate no one said T-90S preformed poor but indeed said, Arjun night firing were superior to T-90S, In other fields both preformed equally well..

I am not talking about the debate but the stories that Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor went to town claiming T-90 fared poorly in the trials ......it was in poor taste and as we know now a lie. T-90 and Arjun performance were rated as more of less equal with each having its pluses and minus and on some counts even equal.

Arjun MK-2 is improved MK-1, Where T-90MS story is different..

The T-90S can be upgraded to MS standard and in future even the Arjun Mk1 will be upgraded to Mk2 standard so its not a different story , its just a matter of upgrading both.

FMBT is a 60 ton tank without Auto-loader, With auto-loader it will be a 48-52ton tank, Its not something very different from now what IA have..

May be I missed it but in that discussion it was mentioned that FMBT will be 48 T .....why would they want to have with and without autoloader ?

 

[sayareakd]

if both perform well then arjun should get its share and not step mother treatment, which it is getting for long time.

 

[Austin]

I completely understand patriotism, but as a person that is also writing articles about tanks, I feel strong disgust to people just simply writing such things in their articles.
I would read this carefully and try find other mistakes done by the author. But by know, article looks weak in my eyes, no profesionall and non impartial in it's comparission part.

Well they dont follow the Abrams development as closely as you do so they wont be aware of all such minute details.....for people who have no knowledge or background on US Tank Development most people would have accepted his version of the story

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am not talking about the debate but the stories that Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor went to town claiming T-90 fared poorly in the trials ......it was in poor taste and as we know now a lie. T-90 and Arjun performance were rated as more of less equal with each having its pluses and minus and on some counts even equal.

The T-90S can be upgraded to MS standard and in future even the Arjun Mk1 will be upgraded to Mk2 standard so its not a different story , its just a matter of upgrading both.

May be I missed it but in that discussion it was mentioned that FMBT will be 48 T .....why would they want to have with and without autoloader ?

There were stories about Arjun too back then, it that was a lie too, And now we know from professional mouths abt the whole idea..

I was not talking about T-90S upgrades to T-90MS, But T-90MS as whole in deigning view, That has been discussed in other thread..

What told in discussion is, Arjun tank of 60tons can be converted to a 50-52 ton tank by adding a auto-loader, It will take redesigning a bit and not a serious challenge and can be done..

Though it was not said as i am telling..

 

[Austin]

if both perform well then arjun should get its share and not step mother treatment, which it is getting for long time.

Yes in a perfect world it should but as the debate pointed out its more about Logistics and Reliability and not really performance of the tank per se which is excellent.

Now ofcourse one can argue why not order 1000 Arjun and put equal number of orders for BLT , Arjun Tank Carrier . Bridges etc but thats another story.

In the end IA needs to be really one of the most richest army in the world to end up operating along 3 class of tanks , T-72 and its upgrades , T-90 and possibly its future upgrades and Arjun Mk1,Mk2 and its upgrades .....must be a logistics as well as Opex Nightmare

 

[Austin]

There were stories about Arjun too back then, it that was a lie too, And now we know from professional mouths abt the whole idea..

Sure it was and some lies were also denied by government but most media have picked upon T-90 bashing as their favourite pass time purely based on Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor story ....which was in poor taste ....it was beyond tanks and also involved some name calling on DGMF etc

I was not talking about T-90S upgrades to T-90MS, But T-90MS as whole in deigning view, That has been discussed in other thread..

Yes T-90MS is just an upgrade if you want to call it a new design you may also call Arjun Mk2 a new design with 93 improvement

What told in discussion is, Arjun tank of 60tons can be converted to a 50-52 ton tank by adding a auto-loader, It will take redesigning a bit and not a serious challenge and can be done..

I am not sure if some one ever did that, it is as good as designing a new tank and more over autoloader will not shave say off 12-14 tons they need to redesign the entire turret as well which probably means redesigning the chassis.

If they have issues a 48 T requirement for FMBT and has issued GSQR then probably CVRDE would built it from scratch and take from Arjun what ever is possible.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes T-90MS is just an upgrade if you want to call it a new design you may also call Arjun Mk2 a new design with 93 improvement .I am not sure if some one ever did that, it is as good as designing a new tank and more over autoloader will not shave say off 12-14 tons they need to redesign the entire turret as well which probably means redesigning the chassis. If they have issues a 48 T requirement for FMBT and has issued GSQR then probably CVRDE would built it from scratch and take from Arjun what ever is possible.

I am not talking about 93 improvements but tank deign itself, Arjun MK-1 deign is not very different from MK-2, Deign flaws of Arjun mk-1 are still in MK-2, Where as T-90S have flaws but T-90MS have additional deign flaw, Upgrading T-90S to T-90MS is not Buying T-90MS as whole now this is a different issue, discussed here:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/36710-indian-t-90s-sub-standard-tank-11.html

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I never said that just place auto-loader in Arjun MK-1 and it will shave off 13-14tons ? What i said a Arjun 60 ton can be converted to 50-52 tons if a auto-loader is used and it will reduce the size of the tank automatically ( Minus the loader and his space so does ammo bins ) the tank size will be reduce and the deign will be same or modified as per need, the reduction of Arjun size it may look a bit more smaller than Tank - ex..

According to original requirement its a 52-55ton tank, In debate they took T-90S 48ton which is not the case..

 

[p2prada]

Nice and Informative debate .....Indeed its puts down to rest the claim made by media specially the likes of livefist and Ajai Shukla that T-90 performance was very poor in trials , very mischief and deliberate subervision of facts .......if they didnt knew it due to classified nature of trials they should have put that on record rather than coming with cock and bull stories.

Unfortunately people like that have a reader base. Take Prasun Sen Gupta as an example.

FMBT looks like the new mantra but 48 T tank will be bringing it to T-90MS level and then FMBT might end up competing with it and this may have its own consequences ......hopefully Army/CVRDE looks into this before they close on FMBT.

I don't think the timeframe will match. T-90s production will end in 2020. Considering production will be jacked up to 150 a year, current orders will be done even before that. On the other hand the FMBT is meant to have the first prototype only in 2017, ie, if CVRDE keeps to the timetable. You can say it is something like MKI and FGFA. When MKI production ends, FGFA will be ready.

During the whole debate no one said T-90S preformed poor but indeed said, Arjun night firing were superior to T-90S, In other fields both preformed equally well..

Not in Ajai Shukla's opinion. He was the one who came out with the jingoistic article of how Arjun was superior to the T-90 in everyway possible.

Heck, now we have a Brigadier(Arjun's commander) who openly says the Arjun's firepower is inferior to T-90s.

what if auto loader get jammed ??

Then we have to fix it.

What if the Arjun's loader suffers from exhaustion and collapses? What if he hits his head on the tank wall and collapses? What if he has a muscle strain?

Atleast autoloader can be fixed in a few hours, where will you find another loader during wartime?

 

[p2prada]

This is a good news for IA that new, more powerfull engine will be designed... question is, if it will be designed and if yes, if it will be a reliable engine.

There was talks of Cumming joining DRDO in developing new engines.

What i said a Arjun 60 ton can be converted to 50-52 tons if a auto-loader is used and it will reduce the size of the tank automatically ( Minus the loader and his space so does ammo bins ) the tank size will be reduce and the deign will be same or modified as per need, the reduction of Arjun size it may look a bit more smaller than Tank - ex..

You don't simply remove an autoloader, do some welding and see an automatic weight reduction. Removing an extra guy won't reduce the Arjun's weight by 15 tons.

You have to design a new tank around an autoloader and that's what the FMBT is. It won't be some redesigned Arjun. That's will be the lamest capability demonstration anybody will ever show in the world, when moving from a 3th gen tank to a 4th gen tank.

Your reasoning is aking to Boeing developing the Super Hornet form the hornet and calling it a 5th gen aircraft.

No my friend, the Arjun is a bygone story. FMBT will be the future and in case DRDO fails at this venture then the next logical step would be acquiring Armata and not Arjun Mk3 or Mk4 or Mk999.

According to original requirement its a 52-55ton tank, In debate they took T-90S 48ton which is not the case..

T-90S is around 48-49 tons. It does not exceed 50 tons. I don't think even T-90MS crosses 50 tons.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Off-topic Post are moved to :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/members-corner/6419-chit-chat-thread-291.html

 

[Austin]

I am not talking about 93 improvements but tank deign itself, Arjun MK-1 deign is not very different from MK-2, Deign flaws of Arjun mk-1 are still in MK-2, Where as T-90S have flaws but T-90MS have additional deign flaw, Upgrading T-90S to T-90MS is not Buying T-90MS as whole now this is a different issue, discussed here

The Design of T-90MS on a fundamental scale is no different to T-90S , the visual difference is due to use of K6 tiles , side armour and more ERA below that it remains the same therefore you can upgrade the T-90S to MS standard , difference would be T-72 and T-90 , you cant upgrade the T-72 to T-90 because its truly different including its turret design....what you are left with then is bare bone chassis because even the engine is different.

I am sure when we see the final Arjun Mk2 we will see the same difference but not big enough that the existing Mk1 cant be upgraded to Mk2 standard

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Design of T-90MS on a fundamental scale is no different to T-90S , the visual difference is due to use of K6 tiles , side armour and more ERA below that it remains the same therefore you can upgrade the T-90S to MS standard , difference would be T-72 and T-90 , you cant upgrade the T-72 to T-90 because its truly different including its turret design....what you are left with then is bare bone chassis because even the engine is different.

I am sure when we see the final Arjun Mk2 we will see the same difference but not big enough that the existing Mk1 cant be upgraded to Mk2 standard

@Austin,

Arjun MK-1 have some flaws like its sight placement, Big mantel, partially protected turret side, These issues are overlooked in Arjun MK-2 upgrade which is sad, A complete upgrade should have been like Leo- A4 evolution upgrade..

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Offtopic:

I have given the link where i explained and before me other explained the serious flaw in T-90MS, T-90MS turret is not same as T-90S, T-90MS turret deign comes with its own flaw which was not in T-90S turret, In other way T-90MS is better than T-90S, What i heard that Indian Gov is utalising T-90MS technology in T-90S for example the APU which is not built in house in same way we may see T-90MS era and other sophisticated equipment in T-90S..

PS. I have taken deep look at T-90MS turret in Defexpo 2012, so does inside, I have posted the pics in the given link, please see those...

 

[Damian]

@Austin

The Design of T-90MS on a fundamental scale is no different to T-90S , the visual difference is due to use of K6 tiles

No such thing like K6 tiles exist, T-90MS dynamic protection is 4S23 Relikt at front, and possibly 4S24 at turret sides. 4S22 Kontakt-5 is not used as obsolete.

 

[Austin]

Kunal , keeping what is known about Tank design in mind still i would be cautious to label the Arjun frontal turret or T-90 slight bump as some fundamental flaw in tank design , for all we know these were designed as part of some trade off , for all we know these flaws might be applicable under some conditions something the tank designer did not find it too critical to change .....so lets keep this flaw argument where it is unless we have some stastics on hits applicable in indian conditions.

What was the latest DRDO APFSDS that VK Saraswat spoke off that was under works ? He mentioned the current APFSDS was 450 mm and the newer one under development was giving 550 or 600 KE ?

Damian point taken.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal , keeping what is known about Tank design in mind still i would be cautious to label the Arjun frontal turret or T-90 slight bump as some fundamental flaw in tank design , for all we know these were designed as part of some trade off , for all we know these flaws might be applicable under some conditions something the tank designer did not find it too critical to change .....so lets keep this flaw argument where it is unless we have some stastics on hits applicable in indian conditions.

What was the latest DRDO APFSDS that VK Saraswat spoke off that was under works ? He mentioned the current APFSDS was 450 mm and the newer one under development was giving 550 or 600 KE ?

Damian point taken.

AFAIK the big mantel of Arjun does have a trade off with new capability as per GSQR but that cause is obsolete, The tank turret needs redesigning or Add on kit at weak points, The weak-points have no excuse in my view , they needed to be rectified..

About the new APFSDS is most probably IMI deign rods..

I can be Wrong here..

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Also

I should add, There is a HEAT round also under development based on CL-20 explosive..

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Off-topic:

T-90MS slight bump is big and not protected completely by ERA..

 

[Austin]

AFAIK the big mantel of Arjun does have a trade off with new capability as per GSQR but that cause is obsolete, The tank turret needs redesigning or Add on kit at weak points, The weak-points have no excuse in my view , they needed to be rectified..

They would probably add an ERA over there we will see when the final Arjun Mk2 configuration is reveled.

The Side and back are more important to protect , hopefully they would add ERA there and anti-RPG grills.

About the new APFSDS is most probably IMI deign rods..

VKS mentioned its indigenous found the interview link

Why can't we make such a simple thing? We used to make it. Why did the Army go outside buying and why are we short?

When we were doing 425 or 400 and production was on, the Army decided that we should go for a higher penetration capability, 600 mm, and they wanted to do it urgently because this was a post-Kargil requirement. So they went for import. And that import has unfortunately not fructified due to various reasons. Now because we realise that there is going to be a gap, we have already upgraded this (FSAPDS) to 500.

So the current Arjun APFSDS is 400-425 mm , the new one is 500 mm and the Army needs and DRDO is working on 600 mm

I think the 600 mm was NATO/SU APFSDS standard of 80's

T-90MS slight bump is big and not protected completely by ERA..

Any idea by how many inches has the bump been increased over T-90S and how does it affect the over all profile/Silhouette of tank

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They would probably add an ERA over there we will see when the final Arjun Mk2 configuration is reveled.

The Side and back are more important to protect , hopefully they would add ERA there and anti-RPG grills.

They have done nothing as per the picture provided till now, And i doubt they will...

Coz its us thinking they will but they might not think the same..

VKS mentioned its indigenous found the interview

link

So the current Arjun APFSDS is 400-425 mm , the new one is 500 mm and the Army needs and DRDO is working on 600 mm

I think the 600 mm was NATO/SU APFSDS standard of 80's

This is a good chat, It gives a estimate only, But good enough..

If DRDO made a round some what 500mmRHA from 2000m than its something same as 3BM-42 'Mango' which is imported recently..

600mm is close to 3BM-44M that if it exists..

Any idea by how many inches has the bump been increased over T-90S and how does it affect the over all profile/Silhouette of tank

26cm at least as min estimate, another 40cm if you take the MG..

 

[Austin]

No such thing like K6 tiles exist, T-90MS dynamic protection is 4S23 Relikt at front, and possibly 4S24 at turret sides. 4S22 Kontakt-5 is not used as obsolete.

Dont think Kontact-5 is obsolete in true sense , it is not the best though available from russian stable for export.

K-5 will be used for a long time on T-90 and even Arjun Mk2 will use K-5 as ERA.