Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[p2prada]

Bobby started with trust deficit from history, then going rounds and rounds and finally said that arjun was not asked in numbers because of trust, looks like silly excuses, plus he said in start that he has not commanded any arjun tank.

The current regiments moved from Vijayanta to Arjun. It is very obvious they will be happy with a 3rd gen tank. Like a Mig-21 pilot being moved to the MKI. Huge difference.

Then, like I had mentioned many times before, the Arjun does not fit into the logistics chain even today, 12 years after T-90 was inducted. Heck, by the time Arjun Mk2 is inducted T-90 would already have finished half it's life.

Then there was a very important point. Arjun has no spares available. Sure they need greater numbers, but 124+124 tanks are a big number if you consider how big European armies are today.

When they talk of T-90, like I mentioned many times again, when the T-90 was ready, the Arjun was not. So, the "need of the hour" forced IA to look for another tank apart from Arjun. As far as tank lore goes, once a tank is inducted it is never replaced until it cannot run anymore. So, the T-90 is to stay no matter how advanced Arjun becomes form here on.

Arjun crews are asked to come to Chennai and collect spares from the HVF in Avadi. Funny That! Comparatively the entire maintenance setup of the T-90 exists.

As for the trials,

Arjun has better ergonomics, but that is not surprising because the Arjun is the latest while T-90s were configured in 1996.

Arjun had inferior accuracy during the first night but bettered the T-90 the next night. But we already know the Arjun was supposed to have superior accuracy due to better electronics compared to T-90s 1996 custom.

During mobility trials the T-90 and Arjun were equal. So, even T-90 is a desert Ferrari. Only one Arjun messed up and it was human error.

Very important, Arjun's penetration capability using APFSDS is lesser than T-90s. An important point which I had always pointed out since even before the trials were conducted.


Arjun has good fire on the move capability, expected.

The problem is not how the Arjun performed, but RELIABILITY.

Arjun can take a hit from the T-72 at point blank range (so can the T-90).

Arjun failed at logistics, mobility(transport), acceptability etc.

Arjun can only build up these above flaws if inducted in good numbers. But, the Army is looking for a tank which goes beyond Arjun's capabilities.


FMBT will be 48 tons.

At this point, IA is a little ahead of the PA armour. So, PA has closed the gap considerably. However other aspects like mechanized infantry and support is still better than PA.

Both Arjun and T-90 suffered from teething problems and were fixed in time.

One talks about changing goal posts by changing GSQR, but another says the changes in GSQR are valid because of the amount of time Arjun has taken for development. "So, you can't accept something that was made 50 years ago."

Arjun does not fire HEAT... 11:16, second video.

On the future,
FMBT should be lighter but it really depends on requirements. The Brigadier is assuming the FMBT will have lesser protection because of the weight class, but we need to see how it pans out.

All this stuff has already been discussed and most of it I already mentioned in this very forum.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nice debate..

Downloaded.. :thumb:

 

[Austin]

Nice and Informative debate .....Indeed its puts down to rest the claim made by media specially the likes of livefist and Ajai Shukla that T-90 performance was very poor in trials , very mischief and deliberate subervision of facts .......if they didnt knew it due to classified nature of trials they should have put that on record rather than coming with cock and bull stories.

We know T-90 and Arjun both have performed equally well and both have their strength and weakness that can be rectified in both tanks .......Arjun Mk2 should take care of its shortcoming and T-90MS should bring it up to equal level.

Logistics seems to be the key reason why Army has been reluctant on Arjun tank besides the delay and constantly changing GSQR. I think Army will have to worked with CVRDE its OEM to see how to improve its logistics.

FMBT looks like the new mantra but 48 T tank will be bringing it to T-90MS level and then FMBT might end up competing with it and this may have its own consequences ......hopefully Army/CVRDE looks into this before they close on FMBT.

Hopefully FMBT will have greater logistics commonality if it is suppose to replace T-72 and work in tandem with Arjun/T-90 ...... keeping a common caliber gun should be one problem less ......working with NATO and Russian standard is not helping us in any way nor is it helping logistics ......they should work on FMBT with the primary role of having standardisation and commonality with T-90 tank in what ever way possible so that the army can use existing logistics and spares.

Hopefully the Army does not come up with some weird GSQR in future for 60 plus ton tank when it knows it has no logistics to support such adventure ....the blame should go to the Army in equal amount for the state Arjun is in.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

that T-90 performance was very poor in trials , very mischief and deliberate subervision of facts ......

We know T-90 and Arjun both have performed equally well and both have their strength and weakness that can be rectified in both tanks .......

Arjun Mk2 should take care of its shortcoming and T-90MS should bring it up to equal level....

FMBT looks like the new mantra but 48 T tank will be bringing it to T-90MS level and then FMBT might end up competing with it ..

Hopefully the Army does not come up with some weird GSQR in future for 60 plus ton tank when it knows it has no logistics to support such adventure ...

During the whole debate no one said T-90S preformed poor but indeed said, Arjun night firing were superior to T-90S, In other fields both preformed equally well..

Arjun MK-2 is improved MK-1, Where T-90MS story is different..

FMBT is a 60 ton tank without Auto-loader, With auto-loader it will be a 48-52ton tank, Its not something very different from now what IA have..

 

[sayareakd]

what if auto loader get jammed ??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

what if auto loader get jammed ??

Try to repair or Get back to workshop otherwise the tank is in serious danger..

 

[sayareakd]

Try to repair or Get back to workshop otherwise the tank is in serious danger..

sir does manual loader has this type of problem, BTW i was told that Arjun can fire 8 round in minute.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

sir does manual loader has this type of problem, BTW i was told that Arjun can fire 8 round in minute.

oma

Its the same as saying what if the automatic machine gun gets jammed compared to the bolt action rifle.

In the end the machine has farless provability of failure.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

sir does manual loader has this type of problem, BTW i was told that Arjun can fire 8 round in minute.

If the loader is absent others in the tank will tank his place to fire the round..

In Auto-loader 8 rnds per min too..


-------------------------------------------------


But in both case tank have to go for safety..

 

[Damian]

what if auto loader get jammed ??

All good autoloader designs have a manual backup in case of mechanism failure, so it is still possible to load ammunition in autoloader cassettes. You can also manually load such gun in case of complete autoloader mechanism failure preventing use of manual backup (hand cranks)... however both solutions increase time of loading and decrease rate of fire.

However currently used autoloader designs (or designs avaiable but not used in any vehicle) are such reliable, that using manual backup is very rare.


BTW The T-90S used by Indian Amy have one serious problem with it's FCS, lack of MRS device. We could here that one of guests in this problem said that lack of MRS or faulty calibrated MRS can cause a drop in accuracy.

T-90S can be retrofitted with MRS, T-90MS have one with it's newer FCS Kalina. But even with older FCS, MRS device still can be used.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90S can be retrofitted with MRS, T-90MS have one with it's newer FCS Kalina. But even with older FCS, MRS device still can be used.

You mean by this FCS..

 

[sayareakd]

 

[Damian]

Article seems to be full of... mistakes.

Can someone explain me how Arjun with a power to weight ratio of 24 hp/t surpass M1 Abrams with power to weight ratio of (avarage) 24,5 hp/t? Or maybe author lives in alternative reality?

Additional point is that when Diesel lost approx 100HP for propelling it's ventilators, Gas Turbine do not loss significant power on this. And there is a difference.

Nominal power of Arjun engine is max 1400HP (minus ~100HP), and M1 Gas Turbine is governed 1500HP with maximum 2000HP. It is a clear sign of weak knowledge or intended manipulation of author.

Not to mention that vehicle in the same weight class with weaker engine is just incapable to have better power to weight ratio.

I completely understand patriotism, but as a person that is also writing articles about tanks, I feel strong disgust to people just simply writing such things in their articles.

Also as for research and development time, there is another mistake. Authors seems to have really weak knowledge about non Indian tanks designs (their R&D history). He confuses the combined development time of MBT-70, XM803 and XM1/M1 Abrams and the fact that first two designs were overcost. In fact development time of M1 Abrams was really short and there were no cost overruns due to demand from congress to decrease vehicle price, designers achieved a initial price for a tank below 1mln USD. Same goes for Leopard 2 that was slightly more expensive around 1mld USD at that time.

I would read this carefully and try find other mistakes done by the author. But by know, article looks weak in my eyes, no profesionall and non impartial in it's comparission part.

However after reading it's Arjun history part and issues with the design, it is much better, however not written for people like me, but mostly for the ordinary citizens.


However for me the most important question in case of Arjun is, do DRDO or IA, seek a way to replace current engine with a more powerfull one, with a 1500HP capable to improve to 1800HP level, just like MTU MB873 Ka501 used in Leopard 2?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Interesting Read...

Thanks for sharing..

However for me the most important question in case of Arjun is, do DRDO or IA, seek a way to replace current engine with a more powerfull one, with a 1500HP capable to improve to 1800HP level, just like MTU MB873 Ka501 used in Leopard 2?

Tuesday, 3 January 2012

Business Standard reported yesterday that CVRDE is developing an 1800 Horse Power engine, rather than the 1500 HP needed for a 50-tonne FMBT."CVRDE has a tradition in transmission design. We built a 1500 HP transmission for the Arjun, which was not used because the engine design was changed. We have also built the "aircraft mounted accessory gearbox" that is standard fitment in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. It is 35 kg of magnesium alloy, spinning at 16,800 rpm. This gearbox has successfully completed some 3000 flights," says Sivakumar.

DRDO has launched a "mission mode" project to develop an 1,800 Horse Power (Hp) indigenous engine. Sivakumar says 1500 Hp is sufficient for a 50-tonne tank, but the endemic danger of weight over-runs in a new tank makes a 300 Hp margin prudent.The project will co-opt domestic engineering companies like Kirloskar Oil Engines, BEML, and the Mahindras; research institutions like IITs; and bodies like the Automotive Research Association of India, Pune. An Indian "prime contractor"

Broadsword: FMBT Part II: India’s future main battle tank now grapples with a weight issue

 

[Damian]

Tuesday, 3 January 2012

Business Standard reported yesterday that CVRDE is developing an 1800 Horse Power engine, rather than the 1500 HP needed for a 50-tonne FMBT."CVRDE has a tradition in transmission design. We built a 1500 HP transmission for the Arjun, which was not used because the engine design was changed. We have also built the "aircraft mounted accessory gearbox" that is standard fitment in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. It is 35 kg of magnesium alloy, spinning at 16,800 rpm. This gearbox has successfully completed some 3000 flights," says Sivakumar.

DRDO has launched a "mission mode" project to develop an 1,800 Horse Power (Hp) indigenous engine. Sivakumar says 1500 Hp is sufficient for a 50-tonne tank, but the endemic danger of weight over-runs in a new tank makes a 300 Hp margin prudent.The project will co-opt domestic engineering companies like Kirloskar Oil Engines, BEML, and the Mahindras; research institutions like IITs; and bodies like the Automotive Research Association of India, Pune. An Indian "prime contractor"

Broadsword: FMBT Part II: India's future main battle tank now grapples with a weight issue

This is a good news for IA that new, more powerfull engine will be designed... question is, if it will be designed and if yes, if it will be a reliable engine.

BTW: If they have concerns about vehicle weight, they should start to cooperate with IBD or US DARPA in terms of nanotechnology applications in armor design. IBD reported that their armor designs made with nanotechnology, are lighter by 30-40% than their classic analogs. This weight reduction without sacrificing protection can be perhaps increased in future.

For example IBD addon armor package for Leopard 2 tanks have total weight of only ~700kg's while still being highly efficent composite armor.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This is a good news for IA that new, more powerfull engine will be designed... question is, if it will be designed and if yes, if it will be a reliable engine.

Interesting question, there should be CVRDE guy here to answer ?

 

[Damian]

Interesting question, there should be CVRDE guy here to answer ?

You need to remember that designing a reliable powerpack for a tank is not an easy task. First good example is South Korea, with highly advanced industry and science, they were not capable to design a reliable powerpack for their K2 MBT, so they need to produce German MTU engines on licence, at least for the first batches before their own engine won't be ready.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You need to remember that designing a reliable powerpack for a tank is not an easy task

Why i need to be reminded ? Indeed its a challenging job and people are surely working hard after this, But we dont know how good the project is going there except people there working there, isnt it ?

We dont know how good or bad it is until its out and tested, I dont have to see what SK does, India and SK have lots of difference economically and other important factors..

BTW: If they have concerns about vehicle weight, they should start to cooperate with IBD
For example IBD addon armor package for Leopard 2 tanks have total weight of only ~700kg's while still being highly efficent composite armor.

That depends on GRSQ demands..

IBD leo a4 upgrade is one of the best solution personally..

 

[methos]

For example IBD addon armor package for Leopard 2 tanks have total weight of only ~700kg's while still being highly efficent composite armor.

More like 5 tonnes. They took a basic Leopard 2(A4) (weight ~ 56 tonnes), removed all sideskirts (which should recude the weight by several 100 kg) and then fitted their armour modules. With armour weight increased to 60 tonnes.

 

[Damian]

More like 5 tonnes. They took a basic Leopard 2(A4) (weight ~ 56 tonnes), removed all sideskirts (which should recude the weight by more than 100 kg) and then fitted their armour modules. With armour weight increased to 60 tonnes.

Package for Strv122B was reported to increase weight with only 700kg's, so I assumed that the addon armor should weight only 700kg's.

IBD leo a4 upgrade is one of the best solution personally..

Such addon armor, or in general armor designed with nanotechnology, can be applied to any combat platform.