Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[sayareakd]

MK-2 have two prototypes..

Final version indeed look like that, But i wish same ERA on right side..

Kunal sir if they can do this to T72



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I am sure they can put in ERA on top in short period of time, this will add weight to tank, therefore i dont think all the tanks will have these ERA at the top.

 

[sayareakd]

found other side pic of Arjun MK-II computer generated image

you can see that front right side of the tank does not have ERA.

 

[Damian]

Ok, if this is real, several conclusions from what I seen.

Turret front ERA looks good, better than on computer graphic. Side turret armor is not improved, still storage boxes, but seems to be slightly redesigned.

ERA on glacis plate, yet in my opinion ERA should be extended to the upper edge, currently there is unprotected area. It seems to be based on ERA glacis module on T-90 series, where the same problem exist and is widely criticized by Ukrainians who place more attention for proper ERA coverage.

Side hull is still protected by basic ballistic and non ballistic skirts.

Pity that the other side of vehicle is not visible.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal sir if they can do this to T72

I am sure they can put in ERA on top in short period of time, this will add weight to tank, therefore i dont think all the tanks will have these ERA at the top.

Due to increase of Weight the ERA is not applied there..

Though ERA on other side should be same as the left side, DRDO T-72 ERA tiles should be applied where there is no ERA..

This will enhance survivability of the tank from all sides..

Side turret armor is not improved, still storage boxes, but seems to be slightly redesigned

Damian, I had talks regarding storage boxes, And what i come to know that sometimes they use concreate blocks in these boxes, The blocks are same shape as Boxes..


How much these kind of improvised solution are good ?

 

[sayareakd]

if they can modified the sight then it ERA can come to right front side just like in Leo 2

plus back side and the boxes can have additional protection with louver Panels against RPG and anti tank rockets and missiles, just like in T90MS, as it wont add much weight but are very effective against tandem warhead.

here is the Lover panel mash made by DRDO for BUSK

 

[Damian]

Damian, I had talks regarding storage boxes, And what i come to know that sometimes they use concreate blocks in these boxes, The blocks are same shape as Boxes..


How much these kind of improvised solution are good ?

Sorry Kunal, concrete is useless, as well as it was useless illusion of protection in WWII (some armies experimented with such additional protection then) that just increased unnececary weight, and it was useless weight.

Search how much RHA and how much concrete shaped charges can penetrate and compare data, You will see that adding concrete is just an illusion of protection.

plus back side and the boxes can have additional protection with louver Panels against RPG and anti tank rockets and missiles, just like in T90MS, as it wont add much weight but are very effective against tandem warhead.

Wrong, Slat Armor is effective only against simple, single HEAT warheads fired by RPG's, nothing else, and effectivenes of slat armor is something around 50%.

T-90MS have such protection only at rear, turret sides are protected by ERA (most probably 4S24) behind alluminium cover plates visible from outside.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sorry Kunal, concrete is useless, as well as it was useless illusion of protection in WWII (some armies experimented with such additional protection then) that just increased unnececary weight, and it was useless weight.

Search how much RHA and how much concrete shaped charges can penetrate and compare data, You will see that adding concrete is just an illusion of protection.

I cannot go for the illusion coz in 71 war, Concrete protection from side decreased the effectiveness of HEAT round from 90mm cannons..

Though i can understand its not a strong protection..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have moved the question of Scalieback here:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-191.html

 

[Damian]

I cannot go for the illusion coz in 71 war, Concrete protection from side decreased the effectiveness of HEAT round from 90mm cannons..

Though i can understand its not a strong protection..

Sorry, it is illusion, it does not matter that concrete will decrease effectiveness of HEAT, but You should ask how much and if this decrease will be significant enough so shaped charge jet won't get in to vehicle interior.

BTW, due to fact that projectiles fired from guns need to survive pressure that is high, gun fired HEAT rounds have mostly less penetration capabilities than RPG's or ATGM's with a warhead of the same calliber, there are of course other reasons why this penetrations levels are lower.

 

[Scalieback]

I have moved the question of Scalieback here:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-191.html

Not sure why you did that as I was just coming from a different point answering Damian's assertion about long range tank kills and who commands those tanks.

He is knowledgeable though, I'll give him that

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I moved it because the topic dont fit here, Its better in grand thread of Armour.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sorry, it is illusion.

Illusion it is only when it is believed its a full proof protection in today`s date, When that is not the case so certainly no Illusion..

 

[methos]

The question is how much ERA tiles are at the center front. The mantlet of the Arjun is pretty big, then the gunner's sight is also located at the front of the turret... this already are two large zones where the armour is weakened. On the CGI of the MK. 2 the ERA was only at the sloped part of the turret front, facing from the turret away - so some place (depending on the angle of the ERA tiles) there is also not covered by ERA (at least this was so on the CGI). Then the T-90 would have far better ERA coverage than the Arjun Mk.2, esp. the T-90S Bshima.

 

[sayareakd]

Wrong, Slat Armor is effective only against simple, single HEAT warheads fired by RPG's, nothing else, and effectivenes of slat armor is something around 50%.

Something is better then nothing rule.

 

[Damian]

Something is better then nothing rule.

Might You consider QinetiQ RPGNet, used also on Polish Rosomak M1M in Afghanistan. These seems to be more effective than normal Slat Armor, but exact working mechanism of RPGNet is not known. Still it seems to be not onli lighter, more flexible but also more effective.

 

[Scalieback]

Might You consider QinetiQ RPGNet, used also on Polish Rosomak M1M in Afghanistan. These seems to be more effective than normal Slat Armor, but exact working mechanism of RPGNet is not known. Still it seems to be not onli lighter, more flexible but also more effective.

Seems good and seen vehicles with it on including MRAPs:

 

[Drsomnath999]

weight is the problem plaguing ARJUN so DRDO compromise on armor looks evident from these pics

See only front side of turret has ERA armor

 

[Drsomnath999]

The question is how much ERA tiles are at the center front. The mantlet of the Arjun is pretty big, then the gunner's sight is also located at the front of the turret... this already are two large zones where the armour is weakened. On the CGI of the MK. 2 the ERA was only at the sloped part of the turret front, facing from the turret away - so some place (depending on the angle of the ERA tiles) there is also not covered by ERA (at least this was so on the CGI). Then the T-90 would have far better ERA coverage than the Arjun Mk.2, esp. the T-90S Bshima.

yes thats what it is T-90 has more ERA coverage than ARJUN mk2 ,which means arjun mark 2 has to rely on active protection system to compensate it.

 

[Scalieback]

weight is the problem plaguing ARJUN so DRDO compromise on armor looks evident from these pics

See only front side of turret has ERA armor

Why are you worried about weight? Surely it is power to weight that is the worry? If it weighs more, give it a more powerful powerpack.

 

[Damian]

Well I have a theory why it might be truth that such turret design is done by nececity of reducing vehicle weight but... I suspect I could be eaten by Arjun fans.

Why are you worried about weight? Surely it is power to weight that is the worry? If it weighs more, give it a more powerful powerpack.

Weight is a very big problem. First it is not only mobility issue (power to weight ratio), but also servicability issue, the heavier vehicle the shorter is service life of suspension, engine and transmission, even if these were designed for a heavy vehicle.

Good example is Challenger 2 with TES(H) up-armor kit. It's weight is 74 tons, 74 tons is completely insane in my opinion. I know from some guys from UK, close to racks, that tanks with up-armor kit have problems with engines, transmission blocks and suspension can barely handle such weight, especially in rough terrain.

This is a problem, especially that there are solutions avaiable right know, that with minimum weiht increase, can significantly increase vehicle protection.

Such solutions as composite armors made with use of nanotechnology or modern multilayer explosive reactive armors, especially ones that instead of flyer plates use linear shaped charges like Ukrainian "Knife" and "Duplet" ERA.