Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Damian]

Tank Protection Level site is not reliabale in some estimations and these are only estimations.

In fact statement about point blank range is just not reliabale statement as these estimations, why?

I give an example, besides normal tests on PT-91 armor here in Poland, there were also "simulation" tests, when modified DM33A1 APFSDS penetrator was fired from 600m to simulate hit at ~2000m, how it was modified? Just by using weaker propelant charge.

We don't know absolutely nothing about these point blank firings, we don't know if ammunition was modified, what hit's angle there were etc.

But if tests were fair, then on the other hand we can suspect that all composite armors are stronger than we thought and all these estimations are as reliabale as Baghdad Bob statements when US Army tanks were driving in Baghdad.

So there 3 possible explanations:

1) tests were unfair.
2) composite armor is stronger than all estimations shows.
3) ammunition penetration values are overestimated.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

So it seems that Kanchan design is based on Burlington armor principles, this means that Kanchan is mostly optimized against HEAT warheads not APFSDS ammunition,
By the way, You don't know how much RHA is used in Kanchan armor, because RHA can be used as outer and back plates, but also as internal plates in composite blend itself.

That Depends on the material used for different purposes..

"As the projectile hits the armor, it faces compression because of the RHA, and then it faces decompression because of the composite. When the projectile passes through several such sandwiched layers, it breaks up the APFDS or HEAT shot. "

Not much is mentioned here, But tests with AP specially proved that the Kanchan is deigned for both threads....

 

[Damian]

Burlington also protected against KE projectiles but was specialized to mainly protect against HEAT projectiles.

It is not so easy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra,
I will try to answer the question asked to me.
The ceramic tiles when hit,are not just get broken but turned to dust.So they will not remain intact even if encased(as in all composite armor).That's the biggest problem associated with and that's why moder armor developers(including the DRDO)use micro fibre filaments to reinforce the ceramic tiles to try to keep them intact to a certain extent.

Thank you for your explanation.

Because both tanks use completely different composite armor, then projectile will react with armor differently.

Ok so I guess there is a gray area about exactly what armour is used in Arjun. So we will let this rest. Kunal has made an interesting post, but the information is rather schematic.

No. It is designed such way because front turret armor can be hit at 0 degrees from turret center axis up to 30+ degrees from turret center axis.

This is why front turret armor is angled in both axes ti increae it's thickness at most predictible hit angles.

Does this apply to Arjun turret as well?

I don't know how simpler explain this.

Well my question is basically why isn't Arjun's turret like Abrams and all I am hearing is that it is sloped in the azimuthal dimension and that there is nothing wrong with its geometry. Strangely, no one is answering my question as to why Arjun's turret is not designed like Abrams.

Ok, I'll rephrase myself.

Premises:

• Modern munitions will not ricochet.
• Sloping armour increases effective thickness.
• Sloping armour is for hit probability.
• Both Arjun and Abrams have outer metal armour, regardless of what is inside.

Therefore, if Arjun's armour was sloped like Abrams, would it have been better than what it is right now? Let us say hit probability for Abrams and Arjun is same?

 

[navkapu]

Arjun Tank is well protected better than any India has if the Armour is slanted with each hit more ceramic tiles would be broken ...... and it can take many hits in battle more than any Armour I know of what DRDO did with kanchan is impressive. Guys in tank warfare whats important is how many hits you can take kanchan has taken point blank hits from T72 years back and with no damage its gun is good in fact very good I was shocked to see its accuracy (SHOCKED) ...... To Kill it in Battle is difficult ....... I would be very worried if i was sitting in a T90. I have seen well protected tanks been ripped off in firing trials (AMMO is good as well ... i would like to be inside a arjun if at war)

 

[pmaitra]

Arjun Tank is well protected better than any India has if the Armour is slanted with each hit more ceramic tiles would be broken ...... and it can take many hits in battle more than any Armour I know of what DRDO did with kanchan is impressive. Guys in tank warfare whats important is how many hits you can take kanchan has taken point blank hits from T72 years back and with no damage its gun is good in fact very good I was shocked to see its accuracy (SHOCKED) ...... To Kill it in Battle is difficult ....... I would be very worried if i was sitting in a T90. I have seen well protected tanks been ripped off in firing trials (AMMO is good as well ... i would like to be inside a arjun if at war)

Thank you. You and Storm Shadow have a nice way of explaining things that are easily comprehensible.

Just to clarify, Arjun turret has been designed keeping in mind hit probability from directions that are different from those on which Abrams has been designed. Is that correct?

Also, Abrams, which uses composite layered armour will also suffer the same fate like you mentioned (more ceramic tiles will be hit) because of the sloping turret?

Thank you for your patience in answering my questions.

 

[Storm shadow]

@pmaitra,
Yeah,the Abrams will suffer from same problem.That's why the modern composite armors are modular in nature for fast repair.But according to Damian,the newer versions of M1s do not use ceramic tiles to a big extent but uses rubber and other inert dynamic armor.So the effect will most probably not same as Kanchan armor.The Arjun MkII will reportedly use a hybrid armor developed by HEMRL.It will use multiple ceramic and rubber layers encased in carbon composite,glass reinforced plastic,kevlar and Tu steel.So basically it will be an intigrated NERA-Ceramic armor.No one knows the exact composition though.

 

[Storm shadow]

@Damian,
I don't think that the rounds were mofied.Because the South Koreans are now claiming that their K 2 armor defeated multiple K 276 rounds from L 55 gun at mere 500 meter range.Now that can very well be over exagrated but can also be true.We can't confirm.

 

[Damian]

Does this apply to Arjun turret as well?

Yes.

But because turret use different design and different armor, results will be different.

Well my question is basically why isn't Arjun's turret like Abrams and all I am hearing is that it is sloped in the azimuthal dimension and that there is nothing wrong with its geometry. Strangely, no one is answering my question as to why Arjun's turret is not designed like Abrams.

Because Arjun turret is designed like Leopard 2 turret, because Germans were helping DRDO designers to design Arjun, however there are several weak points taken from Leopard 2 design, like main sight placement, huge gun mantle. Of course advantage of Arjun turret is that there is more space inside because armor is not angled from vertical axis, while in M1 series there is less space near turret roof.

Ok, I'll rephrase myself.

Premises:

• Modern munitions will not ricochet.
• Sloping armour increases effective thickness.
• Sloping armour is for hit probability.
• Both Arjun and Abrams have outer metal armour, regardless of what is inside.

Therefore, if Arjun's armour was sloped like Abrams, would it have been better than what it is right now? Let us say hit probability for Abrams and Arjun is same?

Yes in my opinion with turret designed similiar like M1, Arjun will have superior armor protection than currently, mainly due to very small gun mantle and because main sight in such turret design is placed completely behind front armor and goes outside through turret roof eliminating completely front armor weak zone.

@Damian,
I don't think that the rounds were mofied.Because the South Koreans are now claiming that their K 2 armor defeated multiple K 276 rounds from L 55 gun at mere 500 meter range.Now that can very well be over exagrated but can also be true.We can't confirm.

If yes this means that modern composite armors, at least western type is stronger than popularly belived, and this is a reason why west never bothered to design heavy ERA to support main armor over frontal arc.

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Thank you. I guess that answers my question.

 

[Storm shadow]

@Damian,
You are right in that Arjun MkI's gunners main sight acts as a shot trap and weakens the front turret.Hope CVRDE will fix this issue in upcoming MkII.HEMRL is reported to be participating in the development and their hybrid armor(multiple rubber and ceramic layers encased in composite materials and tungsten steel) has been cleared for production last year.There is a very high chance that this module will go into Arjun MkII.But one thing I would like to ask-the Centurion MkVII had protection of 220mm RHA at gun mantel while 180mm at other part of front turret,so how can the gun mantel be a weak spot??PLEASE clear my doubt.

 

[Damian]

But one thing I would like to ask-the Centurion MkVII had protection of 220mm RHA at gun mantel while 180mm at other part of front turret,so how can the gun mantel be a weak spot??PLEASE clear my doubt.

In many WWII tanks, gun mantle mask was also front armor of turret, behind gun mantle there was just huge opening for main gun elements, traverse etc.

In modern MBT's gun mantle is not part of front armor, and because modern composite armor is still rather heavy, gun mantle is non armored (only thin RHA) or use less dense and simpler composite armor... so in modern MBT's it is weak zone.

 

[Storm shadow]

@Damian,do you have any idea about possible maximum bore pressure the Rheinmetall L/55 can endure????
THANX.

 

[Damian]

I think it depends on used ammunition, and such data is not provided to public... at least I don't have such infos in books and military press articles, if I find some I will post.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think it depends on used ammunition, and such data is not provided to public... at least I don't have such infos in books and military press articles, if I find some I will post.

Its the amount of the pressure that can be endured by the gun, Every gun have a limiting pressure mark above that it explodes..
Arjun gun have limits upto 612mpa - 800mpa, Any ammo making above that inside a gun may result fatal for the crew..

It must be available..

 

[SPIEZ]

Those people would not have commented if they knew Arjun has over 60-80% imported content.

Can you please tell me about the components which are imported. I would also like to know why we are not able to produce it ourselves

 

[Damian]

@ Kunal Biswas.

Army Guide - Rh-M-120 L55, Gun

They say here that pressure in L55 is higher by 500 bars than in L44, so know we only need to find L44 values.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Your posting 80s technology over here man!