Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pack leader]

@Kunal wave series rws can use 12.7 or 14.5 machine gun
the idf simply uses the Rafael Samson series rws instead of the imi wave rws series

 

[Godless-Kafir]

None because Polish light tank is based on Universal Combat Platform Anders not CV90 platform that is Swedish design, it was only tested in Poland but decision was made to design our own platform.

However UCP Anders can be also equipped with Polish made RWS Kobuz that can be armed also in 12,7mm heavy machine gun or 40mm automatic grenade launcher.

Ya i meant to say Anders, i got confused between the two. However there was an article that there was some interest to joint develop it with poland and later i guess they went their own way.

Altair - Polski czołg z Indiami

 

[Damian]

Everything depends on Indian goverment, if Indian goverment want Anders then ok, but Indian goverment also should remember that Anders is not purely light tank, it is universal combat platform, so India could have purchase licence for Anders family of vehicles and manufacture on their own light tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personell carriers, self proppeled howitzers, seplf proppeled anti aicraft systems, armored recovery vehicles etc. everything on one platform.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal 12,7mm machine guns are not past or obsolete. You should look at US and Israeli experience with using these weapon in anti infantry and anti material roles, and hey, US is using RWS than can handle not only recoil of 7,62mm machine gun but also 12,7mm machine gun and 40mm automatic grenade launcher.

@Damian

What ranges you get most Anti-tank Infantry.. ?

What is the ammo capacity of 7.62X51mm MG & a 12.7mm ammunition box?

Main Gun is multi purpose weapon with different rounds, All 7.62mm is dreaded for all kind of soft vehicles..

@Kunal wave series rws can use 12.7 or 14.5 machine gun
the idf simply uses the Rafael Samson series rws instead of the imi wave rws series

I know, May be coz wave is mainly for export, giving all orders to one product makes delays for customers both foreign and domestic..

Everything depends on Indian goverment, if Indian goverment want Anders then ok, but Indian goverment also should remember that Anders is not purely light tank, it is universal combat platform, so India could have purchase licence for Anders family of vehicles and manufacture on their own light tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personell carriers, self proppeled howitzers, seplf proppeled anti aicraft systems, armored recovery vehicles etc. everything on one platform.

India`s BEML signed for MGS system only, The Armour protection is planned to increase with addition of ERA and slat Armour..

Anders will mainly face 100mm rounds from PL-2 and ATGMS..

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Everything depends on Indian goverment, if Indian goverment want Anders then ok, but Indian goverment also should remember that Anders is not purely light tank, it is universal combat platform, so India could have purchase licence for Anders family of vehicles and manufacture on their own light tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personell carriers, self proppeled howitzers, seplf proppeled anti aicraft systems, armored recovery vehicles etc. everything on one platform.

No i think during development there was some talks for JV but i think India will go in for the Abhay IFV. I guess that is on the drawing board still.

 

[Damian]

@Damian

What ranges you get most Anti-tank Infantry.. ?

What is the ammo capacity of 7.62X51mm MG & a 12.7mm ammunition box?

Main Gun is multi purpose weapon with different rounds, All 7.62mm is dreaded for all kind of soft vehicles..

12,7mm is more effective in anti material role than 7,62mm, it is more effective anti sniper weapon, and have longer range.

In US.Army at least standard load in M1 tanks is 11,400-12,000 7,62x51mm rounds + ~1000 12,7x99mm rounds.

For example with current configuration M1A2SEP takes 1 coaxial 7,62mm machine gun, one coaxial 12,7mm heavy machine gun mounted on gun mantle, 1 12,7mm heavy machine gun on pintle mount or RWS for TC and one 7,62mm machine gun on pintle mount for loader.

Coax 7,62mm machine gun takes ~2800 to 4000 ready rounds (rest is stored), coaxial 12,7mm machine gun have ~100-200 ready rounds, same for TC, loader machine gun takes 100 ready rounds.

US.Army made such configuration because not every target is worth main gun rounds, but also 7,62mm ammunition is not allways as effective as 12,7mm ammunition.

All of these are based on real combat experience.

No i think during development there was some talks for JV but i think India will go in for the Abhay IFV. I guess that is on the drawing board still.

It's India decision, but components unification or even platform unification is desired from logistic chain point of view.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

12,7mm is more effective in anti material role than 7,62mm, it is more effective anti sniper weapon, and have longer range.

Coax 7,62mm machine gun takes ~2800 to 4000 ready rounds (rest is stored), coaxial 12,7mm machine gun have ~100-200 ready rounds, same for TC, loader machine gun takes 100 ready rounds.

US.Army made such configuration because not every target is worth main gun rounds, but also 7,62mm ammunition is not allways as effective as 12,7mm ammunition.

What u talk abt is suppresive fire from 50cal mounted on any platform, 12.7mm effectiveness is better but as per battle conditions one decides what prefers better, Anti-tank hunting teams at most ranges at 500-300 or less meters, 7.62mm is better for that, Sniper is not tanker main concern on open desert and semi desert areas but if necessary Main gun is used for that purpose as it have longest range and more kill probability, Just like in CT operation we use RL once know the location of Sniper. Also more ammo means less reloading on RCWS, Tanker can stay in the tank for long time rather expose himself coming out for reloading..

That is the doctrine followed here..

 

[ALBY]

Are the arjun tanks compatable with APAM rounds developed by Israel?

 

[Damian]

No, APAM is 105mm, it's 120mm analog, Kalanit is only for smoothbore guns.

 

[sayareakd]

No, APAM is 105mm, it's 120mm analog, Kalanit is only for smoothbore guns.

any idea how LAHAT was fired from Arjun ???

 

[ALBY]

any idea how LAHAT was fired from Arjun ???

@ Sya sir it is compatable with any type of 120mm gun.Which is the best gun rifled one or smooth bore?
Can any one please tell why the Arjuns armoured turret is not slant, as in experiments it was proven that vehicles with 30 or 60 degree slant armour are more resistant to anti tank attacks than a 90 degree straight armour.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ Sya sir it is compatable with any type of 120mm gun.Which is the best gun rifled one or smooth bore?
Can any one please tell why the Arjuns armoured turret is not slant, as in experiments it was proven that vehicles with 30 or 60 degree slant armour are more resistant to anti tank attacks than a 90 degree straight armour.

Smooth-bore is better coz it have higher service time..

Arjun Armour is not slant coz Army didn't ask nor DRDO take measures coz the Kanchan was able to deal with Shells in IA..

 

[pmaitra]

Arjun Armour is not slant coz Army didn't ask nor DRDO take measures coz the Kanchan was able to deal with Shells in IA..

It is great that somebody mentioned this and this has been at the back of my head.

Why didn't DRDO or Army even think of sloping armour? Its advantages have been known since the times of the T-34. I could see one reason why; increase in weight of the turret and consequently, the tank. I do think that such an increase would have been nominal

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Smooth-bore is better coz it have higher service time..

Arjun Armour is not slant coz Army didn't ask nor DRDO take measures coz the Kanchan was able to deal with Shells in IA..

Every tank in the world has slope armour, i really wonder what the chaps at DRDO are thinking!!

 

[Damian]

Burt Arjun have sloped turret armor at front, just as Leopard 2A1/A4.

Guys You really don't know and don't see that armor is sloped?

I give You a hint, don't look at turret of both mentioned tanks from front or sides, look from above, armor is angled from turret center line, not from vertical.



Blue line is turret center line/axis, red is front armor angle.

any idea how LAHAT was fired from Arjun ???

Probably it need to be fited with special rotation rings to prevent spin, ah and LAHAT is 105mm so it needs also small sabot.

Its advantages have been known since the times of the T-34.

And I hope that You know that these advantages are not to ricochette enemy ammunition hits but to increase armor thickness without increasing weight.

Besides this modern ammunition allmost not ricochette.

 

[pmaitra]

Burt Arjun have sloped turret armor at front, just as Leopard 2A1/A4.

Guys You really don't know and don't see that armor is sloped?

I give You a hint, don't look at turret of both mentioned tanks from front or sides, look from above, armor is angled from turret center line, not from vertical.



Blue line is turret center line/axis, red is front armor angle.

From the top? Yes. Arjun will deflect the shell sideways and could hit a neighbouring vehicle. Abrams will, however, deflect sideways as well as upwards.

Here is the Arjun:

Here is the Abrams:

 

[Damian]

You don't understand. Modern ammunition will not be deflected, modern ammunition is not deflecting from sloped armor.

M1 Abrams have such sloped armor because it needs to provide excellent frontal protection not only with hits at 0 degrees from turret center axis but also with hits up to 30 degrees from turret center axis in front turret armor.

 

[pmaitra]

You don't understand. Modern ammunition will not be deflected, modern ammunition is not deflecting from sloped armor.

M1 Abrams have such sloped armor because it needs to provide excellent frontal protection not only with hits at 0 degrees from turret center axis but also with hits up to 30 degrees from turret center axis in front turret armor.

Ok so if I understand you correctly, sloped armour no longer provides an advantage because modern ammunitions do not deflect? In other words, Abrams' armour does not provide any advantage over Arjun's armour if hit by modern ammunition?

 

[Damian]

You still don't understand. Because modern ammunitions is not deflected by sloping, modern composite armor is sloped for different reason.

If You want thicker armor but without increasing weight by really making it thicker, then You slope armor, so at most predictible hit angles, armor is much thicker for hitting round that it is in reality.

As I said above M1 Abrams have such sloped armor because it needs to provide excellent frontal protection not only with hits at 0 degrees from turret center axis but also with hits up to 30 degrees from turret center axis in front turret armor.

Do You understand this? because with my english I doubt that I can explain this easier.

Ok different way, at 0 degrees from turret center axis M1A1/A2 Abrams front turret armor is ~900-960mm thick, at 30 degrees from turret cetner axis this same armor is ~800mm thick but if You add angle it should be around ~820-840mm thick at this angle.

I hope that this is understandabale enough.

And taking in to consideration that Arjun design is based on Leopard 2, then Arjun front turret armor is ~800-840mm thick at 0 degrees from turret center axis, and ~700-740mm thick at 30 degrees from turret center axis... if Arjun Mk1 turret is based on Leopard 2 turret also with armor thickness.

 

[pmaitra]

You still don't understand. Because modern ammunitions is not deflected by sloping, modern composite armor is sloped for different reason.

If You want thicker armor but without increasing weight by really making it thicker, then You slope armor, so at most predictible hit angles, armor is much thicker for hitting round that it is in reality.

As I said above M1 Abrams have such sloped armor because it needs to provide excellent frontal protection not only with hits at 0 degrees from turret center axis but also with hits up to 30 degrees from turret center axis in front turret armor.

Do You understand this? because with my english I doubt that I can explain this easier.

Ok different way, at 0 degrees from turret center axis M1A1/A2 Abrams front turret armor is ~900-960mm thick, at 30 degrees from turret cetner axis this same armor is ~800mm thick but if You add angle it should be around ~820-840mm thick at this angle.

I hope that this is understandabale enough.

And taking in to consideration that Arjun design is based on Leopard 2, then Arjun front turret armor is ~800-840mm thick at 0 degrees from turret center axis, and ~700-740mm thick at 30 degrees from turret center axis... if Arjun Mk1 turret is based on Leopard 2 turret also with armor thickness.

I understand most of what you said except why Arjun is fine without sloping armour. It is sloping in azimuth, not sloping in altitude, while Abrams is sloping in both.

Arjun's armour (assuming thickness normal to the armour surface is 700-740 mm):

• Azimuth: 00 deg, Altitude: 00 deg - 700.00 to 740.00 mm
• Azimuth: 30 deg, Altitude: 00 deg - 808.29 to 854.48 mm
• Azimuth: 30 deg, Altitude: 30 deg - 933.33 to 986.67 mm

Simple, for every change in any one dimension (azimuthal or altitudinal) angle theta radians, given thickness of armour d, effective thickness: d/sine(pi - theta).

Hope I made sense:

Now please tell me why is unsloped armour in Arjun better than a hypothetical sloped armour for Arjun? This is in the altitudinal dimension. Kindly explain.