AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

Superdefender

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
1,207
Likes
1,085
INDIA's Indigenous fighter aircarft programme: what we learnt from Past
Tuesday, November 10, 2015




By Ranjan Kumar Parida
The criticisms are not new, the development is slow and they say time is constant here like a black hole circling over India. Many shortfalls and many waivers but still to see the bird on IAF’s hand, yes am talking about HAL Tejas (LCA), will take you back to 1960’s with up and downs in Indian aerospace industry and finally a glimpse of hope with a big order and future development plan.

Major world powers have capability to design, develop and manufacture fighter aircraft indigenously. Technically, this would include all major components - aero-engines, radar, aircraft design, metallurgy, weapons and sensors. Currently only USA, Russia, France and UK have these capabilities and are followed closely by Germany, Italy, China and Sweden.

Background
Good start but poor follow-up has continued to challenge India’s desire to master aerospace technology. India’s desire to build its own fighter jet began well with the HF-24 Marut program. The project was approved in 1957 and the first prototype flew in 1961 - a mere four years later. The first squadron went operational in 1967. However, the program encountered a premature end in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the IAF, Government and HAL. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed inexperience and strategic carelessness during HF-24 Marut development and operational life. The end result was withering away of precious knowledge gained over the development. During the same period, HAL shifted its focus to production of MiG-21s under license.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1983 in order to replace aging MiG-21s manufactured during 1970's and 80's, as most of them were expected to be phased out in the 1990s. The indigenous design and development of LCA was sanctioned in 1983 and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) was constituted in June 1984. IAF issued requirement in October 1985 with a projected requirement of 220 aircrafts (200 fighters and 20 trainers), to be inducted by 1994.

Why LCA, as opposed to MCAs (Rafale, Eurofighter) or HCAs (Sukhoi 30 Mki)?
This concept of LCA has been a source of much study and research to achieve performance requirements at affordable cost. This became more feasible in the jet age as emphasis shifted to getting the same performance with relatively lower thrust engine. The Gnat aircraft, which the IAF flew effectively in 1965 and 1971 wars, was a light weight fighter whose performance in its category was excellent, at minimal cost. This left a lasting impression on IAF and hence the decision for LCA.

What went wrong? Or did anything go wrong, at all?
Prima facie, the perceived delay in the LCA project can be blamed on the lack of co-ordination between user (IAF), designer (ADA), manufacturer (HAL) and the Government, which made it impossible to deliver the LCA project in time. And one wrong was done more over the other – clubbing of Kaveri engine project with LCA. Kaveri engine got delayed because of India’s lack of experience in building turbofan engines. India did tie-ups with unreliable American companies at a time of not-so-good relations, and nuclear tests resulted in sanctions, which pushed back the project by few more years. From LCA decision being taken 1983, till the final operational clearance in Q1 2016 is 33 years – which seems very long. But after removing 4 years for funding gap (from 1989, when project definition was finished, till 1993, no funds were made available to LCA project) and 4 more for sanction issues, LCA project took 25 years. Ideally, world over a fighter jet project takes more than 20 years.

To build a fourth generation fighter aircraft from scratch with a countrywide aerospace ecosystem and research, testing and certification facilities in less than three decades is, by any standards, remarkable technology leapfrog. Anywhere in the world it would draw generous praise but in India, thanks to media attention with questionable intent. Even while mentioning reasons for delays in the program, DM Manohar Parikar agreed in Parliament that lack of trained engineers, infrastructure, including test facilities had played a major role.

How good is HAL Tejas (LCA) and where it headed from here?
Tejas test pilots continue to believe that the aircraft is more versatile than MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat), MiG-27 and Jaguar (primarily ground strike aircraft), and all variants of the MiG-21. They even say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force’s early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder. Deliveries of combat standard units of Tejas Mk-I began on 17 January 2015, with final operational clearance (FOC) expected Q1 2016. In a major breakthrough IAF recently ordered 120 HAL Tejas. IAF wants the final version should have advanced (AESA) radar, air to air refueling, BVR missiles and electronic jammers to block enemy radars.

Future Developments
ADA is also working on an improved version, HAL Tejas Mk-II, with greater capability based on Indian Navy’s prolonged requirements. Looking into higher drag on water surface HAL Tejas Mk-II will be powered with GE F-414 engines that produce 98kN of peak thrust. Apart from engine, Tejas Mk-II will feature upgraded avionics, more advanced radar and longer combat radius.

Meanwhile a nation surrounded with two aggressive neighbors can’t afford to have just fourth generation fighter. The Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, one of the fighter J-20 going to be in series production from next year onwards and intended to export to friendly nations. While India realized the situation back in 2008 and started a JV with Russia to develop fifth generation fighter (FGFA) but lack of co-ordination between the nations stalled the project sometime back and IAF now wants to buy Russian version of FGFA T-50 on Government to Government agreement.

Meanwhile IAF with his local partner ADA wants to develop an indigenous fifth generation fighter (AMCA). At the moment the project is out of definition phase and entering to funding phase. AMCA is a much bigger program compared to LCA, in LCA the country leapfrogged from nowhere to fourth generation fighter aircraft. In case of AMCA while the LCA platform will help us, however, our scientist needs to crack number crucial technology like advance radar, Stealth technology and high power engine, currently USA and Russia possesses the technology and China somehow successful. To make the project successful we need larger Research and development base with serious funding upfront.

Now, the good news
In the process of building an indigenous fighter aircraft, India has almost solved the puzzle of fighter aircraft building. With favorable conditions, and proper planning, the successor of Kaveri engines will hopefully be ready by the time India is ready to produce the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). The LCA project has built India’s capabilities in fighter aircraft production from ground up. India can repeat the same success story with AMCA, only this time faster. As they say, it is only hard the first time!


Source Link: http://www.orissadiary.com/ShowOriyaColumn.asp?id=62729
 

Superdefender

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
1,207
Likes
1,085
More Names:
___________

HAL Pisach (Ghost)
HAL Chadak (Lightening)
HAL Jahlad (Killer)
HAL Ghatuk (Merciless)
HAL Ghotak (Horse)
HAL Chakrabaat (Typhoon)
HAL Chandrakant (Night)
HAL Chiranjibi (Immortal)
HAL Gidhad (Vulture)
HAL Chatrapati (King)
HAL Daitari (Lord Vishnu)
 

MKM

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
129
Likes
132
Country flag
More Names:
___________

HAL Pisach (Ghost)
HAL Chadak (Lightening)
HAL Jahlad (Killer)
HAL Ghatuk (Merciless)
HAL Ghotak (Horse)
HAL Chakrabaat (Typhoon)
HAL Chandrakant (Night)
HAL Chiranjibi (Immortal)
HAL Gidhad (Vulture)
HAL Chatrapati (King)
HAL Daitari (Lord Vishnu)
Tomi Bongla ashchhe?
HAL Pisach (Ghost)-Pishach
HAL Chadak (Lightening)-didn't know such word exist. other similar words are Vajrapaat/Tadit
HAL Jahlad (Killer)- too bad, used for bad person
HAL Ghatuk (Merciless)-didn't know such word exist, aren't you talking about Ghatak?
HAL Ghotak (Horse)
HAL Chakrabaat (Typhoon)-Chakravaat
HAL Chandrakant (Night)-means moonstone, Chandrakanta means night(meaning of both are loved by moon first is for male second is for female which may be night or moonlight)
Suryakant means Jasper, Suryakanta means his wife Sangya/Sanjna
HAL Chiranjibi (Immortal)-Chiranjeevi means long-lived, Immortal-Amar(Omor/Amor whatever you call)
HAL Gidhad (Vulture)- Giddh
HAL Chatrapati (King)-Chhatrapati
HAL Daitari (Lord Vishnu)-Daityari

I won't mind taking any word from any language till it's Indian, meaning must be good.
 

sasum

Atheist but not Communists.
New Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
1,435
Likes
761
Naamkaran karte raho, plane ka to koi naamo-nishaana nahi hai....
Btw, I may offer a few translation:
Pisach-> Ghoul
Jahlad -> Executioner
Gidhad -> Wolf
Ghatuk-> Ambusher
Chandrakant-> Moon-face
 

Superdefender

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
1,207
Likes
1,085
@MKM , mu gote Odia pua ate (I am a Odia boy). I have no Hindi dictionary and converting the words with my own poor English knowledge. So please bear with me.


All meaning of words are correct except "Gidhad". That was my fault and should be "Giddh". Some words have different meaning too. No, Ghatak is different. "Ghatuk" means man with no mercy.
 

MKM

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
129
Likes
132
Country flag
Naamkaran karte raho, plane ka to koi naamo-nishaana nahi hai....
Btw, I may offer a few translation:
Pisach-> Ghoul
Jahlad -> Executioner
Gidhad -> Wolf
Ghatuk-> Ambusher
Chandrakant-> Moon-face
Jallad is offensive, I will go against this to SC.
Wolf is Bhediya
Jackal=> Gidad/Siyar(Don't know whether Siyar is Sanskrit word or not but it is a Hindi word).
Chandrakant => Loved by moon(moonstone), never heard about moon-face.
@MKM , mu gote Odia pua ate (I am a Odia boy). I have no Hindi dictionary and converting the words with my own poor English knowledge. So please bear with me.


All meaning of words are correct except "Gidhad". That was my fault and should be "Giddh". Some words have different meaning too. No, Ghatak is different. "Ghatuk" means man with no mercy.
We are discussing languages here & we don't have any update on AMCA from many months, also namkaran ke liye panditji kaise rahenge?
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
Naamkaran karte raho, plane ka to koi naamo-nishaana nahi hai....
Btw, I may offer a few translation:
Pisach-> Ghoul
Jahlad -> Executioner
Gidhad -> Wolf
Ghatuk-> Ambusher
Chandrakant-> Moon-face
Why do you think there would be any new update each and every day? For gods shake, its a plane not a pizza, where a new topping would be tried each and every day :). Just keep calm and keep your finger cross.
 

sasum

Atheist but not Communists.
New Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
1,435
Likes
761
Why do you think there would be any new update each and every day? For gods shake, its a plane not a pizza, where a new topping would be tried each and every day :). Just keep calm and keep your finger cross.
I find your reaction weird. The world-over, our DRDO and Defence PSUs are known for their inaction or very little action. Even when they have finished a designated project, it is so delayed, that the product has already lost much of its relevance. Please go thru the CAG reports about our much-vaunted defence projects - both finished & ongoing. I have no bias.
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
I find your reaction weird. The world-over, our DRDO and Defence PSUs are known for their inaction or very little action. Even when they have finished a designated project, it is so delayed, that the product has already lost much of its relevance. Please go thru the CAG reports about our much-vaunted defence projects - both finished & ongoing. I have no bias.
Agreed. In both the cases you couldn't expect to hear regularly. If it has been shunned, then you would come to know after a year or two and if its been worked on you could expect something only after a couple of months. Previously it has been a routine to flaunt even a rivet fixture in front of media. But off late we have seen that much of the developments are kept under wraps. Take the case of K4 testing or Tejas and LCH itself. Are you coming across every new developments which are taking place?
 

Superdefender

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
1,207
Likes
1,085
More Names:
___________

HAL Dahak (Inflamation)
HAL Tabiz (A Locket for protection)
HAL Vidyut (Electricity)
HAL Tapan (Sun)
HAL Tamoghn (Sun/Fire)
HAL Tapak (Sun)
HAL Tarak (Saviour)
HAL Tuhin (Ice/Snow)
HAL Tejiyaan (More Radiant)
HAL Trata (Saviour)
HAL Tridib (Sky/Heaven)
 

MKM

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
129
Likes
132
Country flag
More Names:
___________

HAL Dahak (Inflamation)
HAL Tabiz (A Locket for protection)
HAL Vidyut (Electricity)
HAL Tapan (Sun)
HAL Tamoghn (Sun/Fire)
HAL Tapak (Sun)
HAL Tarak (Saviour)
HAL Tuhin (Ice/Snow)
HAL Tejiyaan (More Radiant)
HAL Trata (Saviour)
HAL Tridib (Sky/Heaven)
Sir, kuchh bhi...
Better try this..
 

SilverSabre

New Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
26
Likes
14
INDIA's Indigenous fighter aircarft programme: what we learnt from Past
Tuesday, November 10, 2015




By Ranjan Kumar Parida
The criticisms are not new, the development is slow and they say time is constant here like a black hole circling over India. Many shortfalls and many waivers but still to see the bird on IAF’s hand, yes am talking about HAL Tejas (LCA), will take you back to 1960’s with up and downs in Indian aerospace industry and finally a glimpse of hope with a big order and future development plan.

Major world powers have capability to design, develop and manufacture fighter aircraft indigenously. Technically, this would include all major components - aero-engines, radar, aircraft design, metallurgy, weapons and sensors. Currently only USA, Russia, France and UK have these capabilities and are followed closely by Germany, Italy, China and Sweden.

Background
Good start but poor follow-up has continued to challenge India’s desire to master aerospace technology. India’s desire to build its own fighter jet began well with the HF-24 Marut program. The project was approved in 1957 and the first prototype flew in 1961 - a mere four years later. The first squadron went operational in 1967. However, the program encountered a premature end in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the IAF, Government and HAL. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed inexperience and strategic carelessness during HF-24 Marut development and operational life. The end result was withering away of precious knowledge gained over the development. During the same period, HAL shifted its focus to production of MiG-21s under license.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1983 in order to replace aging MiG-21s manufactured during 1970's and 80's, as most of them were expected to be phased out in the 1990s. The indigenous design and development of LCA was sanctioned in 1983 and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) was constituted in June 1984. IAF issued requirement in October 1985 with a projected requirement of 220 aircrafts (200 fighters and 20 trainers), to be inducted by 1994.

Why LCA, as opposed to MCAs (Rafale, Eurofighter) or HCAs (Sukhoi 30 Mki)?
This concept of LCA has been a source of much study and research to achieve performance requirements at affordable cost. This became more feasible in the jet age as emphasis shifted to getting the same performance with relatively lower thrust engine. The Gnat aircraft, which the IAF flew effectively in 1965 and 1971 wars, was a light weight fighter whose performance in its category was excellent, at minimal cost. This left a lasting impression on IAF and hence the decision for LCA.

What went wrong? Or did anything go wrong, at all?
Prima facie, the perceived delay in the LCA project can be blamed on the lack of co-ordination between user (IAF), designer (ADA), manufacturer (HAL) and the Government, which made it impossible to deliver the LCA project in time. And one wrong was done more over the other – clubbing of Kaveri engine project with LCA. Kaveri engine got delayed because of India’s lack of experience in building turbofan engines. India did tie-ups with unreliable American companies at a time of not-so-good relations, and nuclear tests resulted in sanctions, which pushed back the project by few more years. From LCA decision being taken 1983, till the final operational clearance in Q1 2016 is 33 years – which seems very long. But after removing 4 years for funding gap (from 1989, when project definition was finished, till 1993, no funds were made available to LCA project) and 4 more for sanction issues, LCA project took 25 years. Ideally, world over a fighter jet project takes more than 20 years.

To build a fourth generation fighter aircraft from scratch with a countrywide aerospace ecosystem and research, testing and certification facilities in less than three decades is, by any standards, remarkable technology leapfrog. Anywhere in the world it would draw generous praise but in India, thanks to media attention with questionable intent. Even while mentioning reasons for delays in the program, DM Manohar Parikar agreed in Parliament that lack of trained engineers, infrastructure, including test facilities had played a major role.

How good is HAL Tejas (LCA) and where it headed from here?
Tejas test pilots continue to believe that the aircraft is more versatile than MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat), MiG-27 and Jaguar (primarily ground strike aircraft), and all variants of the MiG-21. They even say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force’s early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder. Deliveries of combat standard units of Tejas Mk-I began on 17 January 2015, with final operational clearance (FOC) expected Q1 2016. In a major breakthrough IAF recently ordered 120 HAL Tejas. IAF wants the final version should have advanced (AESA) radar, air to air refueling, BVR missiles and electronic jammers to block enemy radars.

Future Developments
ADA is also working on an improved version, HAL Tejas Mk-II, with greater capability based on Indian Navy’s prolonged requirements. Looking into higher drag on water surface HAL Tejas Mk-II will be powered with GE F-414 engines that produce 98kN of peak thrust. Apart from engine, Tejas Mk-II will feature upgraded avionics, more advanced radar and longer combat radius.

Meanwhile a nation surrounded with two aggressive neighbors can’t afford to have just fourth generation fighter. The Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, one of the fighter J-20 going to be in series production from next year onwards and intended to export to friendly nations. While India realized the situation back in 2008 and started a JV with Russia to develop fifth generation fighter (FGFA) but lack of co-ordination between the nations stalled the project sometime back and IAF now wants to buy Russian version of FGFA T-50 on Government to Government agreement.

Meanwhile IAF with his local partner ADA wants to develop an indigenous fifth generation fighter (AMCA). At the moment the project is out of definition phase and entering to funding phase. AMCA is a much bigger program compared to LCA, in LCA the country leapfrogged from nowhere to fourth generation fighter aircraft. In case of AMCA while the LCA platform will help us, however, our scientist needs to crack number crucial technology like advance radar, Stealth technology and high power engine, currently USA and Russia possesses the technology and China somehow successful. To make the project successful we need larger Research and development base with serious funding upfront.

Now, the good news
In the process of building an indigenous fighter aircraft, India has almost solved the puzzle of fighter aircraft building. With favorable conditions, and proper planning, the successor of Kaveri engines will hopefully be ready by the time India is ready to produce the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). The LCA project has built India’s capabilities in fighter aircraft production from ground up. India can repeat the same success story with AMCA, only this time faster. As they say, it is only hard the first time!


Source Link: http://www.orissadiary.com/ShowOriyaColumn.asp?id=62729
INDIA's Indigenous fighter aircarft programme: what we learnt from Past
Tuesday, November 10, 2015




By Ranjan Kumar Parida
The criticisms are not new, the development is slow and they say time is constant here like a black hole circling over India. Many shortfalls and many waivers but still to see the bird on IAF’s hand, yes am talking about HAL Tejas (LCA), will take you back to 1960’s with up and downs in Indian aerospace industry and finally a glimpse of hope with a big order and future development plan.

Major world powers have capability to design, develop and manufacture fighter aircraft indigenously. Technically, this would include all major components - aero-engines, radar, aircraft design, metallurgy, weapons and sensors. Currently only USA, Russia, France and UK have these capabilities and are followed closely by Germany, Italy, China and Sweden.

Background
Good start but poor follow-up has continued to challenge India’s desire to master aerospace technology. India’s desire to build its own fighter jet began well with the HF-24 Marut program. The project was approved in 1957 and the first prototype flew in 1961 - a mere four years later. The first squadron went operational in 1967. However, the program encountered a premature end in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the IAF, Government and HAL. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed inexperience and strategic carelessness during HF-24 Marut development and operational life. The end result was withering away of precious knowledge gained over the development. During the same period, HAL shifted its focus to production of MiG-21s under license.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1983 in order to replace aging MiG-21s manufactured during 1970's and 80's, as most of them were expected to be phased out in the 1990s. The indigenous design and development of LCA was sanctioned in 1983 and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) was constituted in June 1984. IAF issued requirement in October 1985 with a projected requirement of 220 aircrafts (200 fighters and 20 trainers), to be inducted by 1994.

Why LCA, as opposed to MCAs (Rafale, Eurofighter) or HCAs (Sukhoi 30 Mki)?
This concept of LCA has been a source of much study and research to achieve performance requirements at affordable cost. This became more feasible in the jet age as emphasis shifted to getting the same performance with relatively lower thrust engine. The Gnat aircraft, which the IAF flew effectively in 1965 and 1971 wars, was a light weight fighter whose performance in its category was excellent, at minimal cost. This left a lasting impression on IAF and hence the decision for LCA.

What went wrong? Or did anything go wrong, at all?
Prima facie, the perceived delay in the LCA project can be blamed on the lack of co-ordination between user (IAF), designer (ADA), manufacturer (HAL) and the Government, which made it impossible to deliver the LCA project in time. And one wrong was done more over the other – clubbing of Kaveri engine project with LCA. Kaveri engine got delayed because of India’s lack of experience in building turbofan engines. India did tie-ups with unreliable American companies at a time of not-so-good relations, and nuclear tests resulted in sanctions, which pushed back the project by few more years. From LCA decision being taken 1983, till the final operational clearance in Q1 2016 is 33 years – which seems very long. But after removing 4 years for funding gap (from 1989, when project definition was finished, till 1993, no funds were made available to LCA project) and 4 more for sanction issues, LCA project took 25 years. Ideally, world over a fighter jet project takes more than 20 years.

To build a fourth generation fighter aircraft from scratch with a countrywide aerospace ecosystem and research, testing and certification facilities in less than three decades is, by any standards, remarkable technology leapfrog. Anywhere in the world it would draw generous praise but in India, thanks to media attention with questionable intent. Even while mentioning reasons for delays in the program, DM Manohar Parikar agreed in Parliament that lack of trained engineers, infrastructure, including test facilities had played a major role.

How good is HAL Tejas (LCA) and where it headed from here?
Tejas test pilots continue to believe that the aircraft is more versatile than MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat), MiG-27 and Jaguar (primarily ground strike aircraft), and all variants of the MiG-21. They even say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force’s early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder. Deliveries of combat standard units of Tejas Mk-I began on 17 January 2015, with final operational clearance (FOC) expected Q1 2016. In a major breakthrough IAF recently ordered 120 HAL Tejas. IAF wants the final version should have advanced (AESA) radar, air to air refueling, BVR missiles and electronic jammers to block enemy radars.

Future Developments
ADA is also working on an improved version, HAL Tejas Mk-II, with greater capability based on Indian Navy’s prolonged requirements. Looking into higher drag on water surface HAL Tejas Mk-II will be powered with GE F-414 engines that produce 98kN of peak thrust. Apart from engine, Tejas Mk-II will feature upgraded avionics, more advanced radar and longer combat radius.

Meanwhile a nation surrounded with two aggressive neighbors can’t afford to have just fourth generation fighter. The Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, one of the fighter J-20 going to be in series production from next year onwards and intended to export to friendly nations. While India realized the situation back in 2008 and started a JV with Russia to develop fifth generation fighter (FGFA) but lack of co-ordination between the nations stalled the project sometime back and IAF now wants to buy Russian version of FGFA T-50 on Government to Government agreement.

Meanwhile IAF with his local partner ADA wants to develop an indigenous fifth generation fighter (AMCA). At the moment the project is out of definition phase and entering to funding phase. AMCA is a much bigger program compared to LCA, in LCA the country leapfrogged from nowhere to fourth generation fighter aircraft. In case of AMCA while the LCA platform will help us, however, our scientist needs to crack number crucial technology like advance radar, Stealth technology and high power engine, currently USA and Russia possesses the technology and China somehow successful. To make the project successful we need larger Research and development base with serious funding upfront.

Now, the good news
In the process of building an indigenous fighter aircraft, India has almost solved the puzzle of fighter aircraft building. With favorable conditions, and proper planning, the successor of Kaveri engines will hopefully be ready by the time India is ready to produce the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). The LCA project has built India’s capabilities in fighter aircraft production from ground up. India can repeat the same success story with AMCA, only this time faster. As they say, it is only hard the first time!


Source Link: http://www.orissadiary.com/ShowOriyaColumn.asp?id=62729
I came across this post of yours today and can't fathom the lack of understanding of defence procedures and projects of Mr. Ranjan who wrote the article. Initially I thought of highlighting a few inconsistencies and gaps in the article but by the time I finished it I gave up the idea as I find author's research very rudimentary and he has no idea about defence projects or any complex project management. So I brushed aside the article as a sub-standard piece of junk you come across the news pieces in general.

No offence to you, but I guess before you share such articles in your eagerness, please step back and analyse what the reporter is trying to imply.

After all the doom and gloom the article highlighted about the HAL's operations and pathetic delays and process maturity I give some analogies to which you may be able to appreciate the point I am making.

We all know the maturity of our IT services sector and are proud of it and many of us have seen companies like TCS, Infosys, HCL and Wipro become the giants they are today in front of our eyes in matter of 1-2 decade. Now imagine a whole aircraft industry with only 1 player in the country HAL. Healthy & Competition fosters rapid advancements and process maturity. What 5-10 big IT firms achieved in 2 decades a single player will take forever to reach there. In that context HAL's achievements are laudable.

Regarding delays, any project management team sets a project for a stipulated time and money resources, but defence projects have major dependencies on the political policy making. Marut got stuck in the embargo that came into picture after India's Nuclear test. almost half of the Maruts were not used due to lack of engines and spare parts available for India.

So IAF couldn't do much with Marut even though intention was there. Please also keep in mind, India chose to work on LCA because India's past experience & capability was to work only on a Light configuration aircraft. Please check the aircraft comparisons at below links.

Marut - http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=366
LCA - http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=861

HAL still doesn't have the skills and capability know how to develop and manage an aircraft with a high thrust engine. A high thrust engine needs a stringent and robust airframe with even more complex fly by wire controls, that makes the equation even more complex.

Just imagine for upgrading GE Engine from F404 to F414, HAL is tying up with SAAB to improvise on LCA's performance and engines integration.

HAL is still far away from working on an indigenous MCA or HCA planes. The projects are underway in tie ups with Russia and SAAB but without foreign hand holding we can't complete such complex projects.

The biggest mistake I will take from IAF is that the negligence and destruction of Maruts airframes, which could have been used now after getting the experience from LCA, as all rest structural traits are more or less comparable, but as we never took care of those airframes now we don't even have the frames to be reused.

I am by no means being critical of you, but just reflecting my points over Rajan's article which unnecessarily put blames and finger pointing on HAL & IAF.I am a proud Indian who believe in constructive criticism.

Jai Hind
 

pmaitra

New Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,600
@SilverSabre,

Mr. Parida appears to be well informed. He is also a member of this forum, although not very active these days.

Whether his research is rudimentary or not, is best established by actually countering his points, instead of making a proclamation. The idea is to have both sides of the story. You should present your side.

Coming to India IT giants, giants, they are; cutting edge, they are not - not even closely. If you think about it, the Indian Postal Department is also a giant. Building 5th generation aircraft takes a lot of quality, and in the field of IT, none of the Indian companies come anywhere close. If you look at the top software products (not services), almost all of them are non-Indian.

You are correct about healthy competition. We need the private sector to compete with HAL. Whether this is feasible or not, is a debate that might as well go out of scope of this thread.
 

SilverSabre

New Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
26
Likes
14
@SilverSabre,

Mr. Parida appears to be well informed. He is also a member of this forum, although not very active these days.

Whether his research is rudimentary or not, is best established by actually countering his points, instead of making a proclamation. The idea is to have both sides of the story. You should present your side.

Coming to India IT giants, giants, they are; cutting edge, they are not - not even closely. If you think about it, the Indian Postal Department is also a giant. Building 5th generation aircraft takes a lot of quality, and in the field of IT, none of the Indian companies come anywhere close. If you look at the top software products (not services), almost all of them are non-Indian.

You are correct about healthy competition. We need the private sector to compete with HAL. Whether this is feasible or not, is a debate that might as well go out of scope of this thread.
I categorically said IT services firms. I know we lack our presence in IT products space due to lack of R&D and investment. But in services side we do have pretty mature process.
 

SilverSabre

New Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
26
Likes
14
I categorically said IT services firms. I know we lack our presence in IT products space due to lack of R&D and investment. But in services side we do have pretty mature process.
Apologies if I hurt some sentiments but I did countered his point of why LCA and not MCA or HCA. I know my responses here are not relevant to the thread so I cut them short here.
 

HariPrasad-1

New Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2016
Messages
9,645
Likes
21,138
Country flag
INDIA's Indigenous fighter aircarft programme: what we learnt from Past
Tuesday, November 10, 2015




By Ranjan Kumar Parida
The criticisms are not new, the development is slow and they say time is constant here like a black hole circling over India. Many shortfalls and many waivers but still to see the bird on IAF’s hand, yes am talking about HAL Tejas (LCA), will take you back to 1960’s with up and downs in Indian aerospace industry and finally a glimpse of hope with a big order and future development plan.

Major world powers have capability to design, develop and manufacture fighter aircraft indigenously. Technically, this would include all major components - aero-engines, radar, aircraft design, metallurgy, weapons and sensors. Currently only USA, Russia, France and UK have these capabilities and are followed closely by Germany, Italy, China and Sweden.

Background
Good start but poor follow-up has continued to challenge India’s desire to master aerospace technology. India’s desire to build its own fighter jet began well with the HF-24 Marut program. The project was approved in 1957 and the first prototype flew in 1961 - a mere four years later. The first squadron went operational in 1967. However, the program encountered a premature end in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the IAF, Government and HAL. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed inexperience and strategic carelessness during HF-24 Marut development and operational life. The end result was withering away of precious knowledge gained over the development. During the same period, HAL shifted its focus to production of MiG-21s under license.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1983 in order to replace aging MiG-21s manufactured during 1970's and 80's, as most of them were expected to be phased out in the 1990s. The indigenous design and development of LCA was sanctioned in 1983 and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) was constituted in June 1984. IAF issued requirement in October 1985 with a projected requirement of 220 aircrafts (200 fighters and 20 trainers), to be inducted by 1994.

Why LCA, as opposed to MCAs (Rafale, Eurofighter) or HCAs (Sukhoi 30 Mki)?
This concept of LCA has been a source of much study and research to achieve performance requirements at affordable cost. This became more feasible in the jet age as emphasis shifted to getting the same performance with relatively lower thrust engine. The Gnat aircraft, which the IAF flew effectively in 1965 and 1971 wars, was a light weight fighter whose performance in its category was excellent, at minimal cost. This left a lasting impression on IAF and hence the decision for LCA.

What went wrong? Or did anything go wrong, at all?
Prima facie, the perceived delay in the LCA project can be blamed on the lack of co-ordination between user (IAF), designer (ADA), manufacturer (HAL) and the Government, which made it impossible to deliver the LCA project in time. And one wrong was done more over the other – clubbing of Kaveri engine project with LCA. Kaveri engine got delayed because of India’s lack of experience in building turbofan engines. India did tie-ups with unreliable American companies at a time of not-so-good relations, and nuclear tests resulted in sanctions, which pushed back the project by few more years. From LCA decision being taken 1983, till the final operational clearance in Q1 2016 is 33 years – which seems very long. But after removing 4 years for funding gap (from 1989, when project definition was finished, till 1993, no funds were made available to LCA project) and 4 more for sanction issues, LCA project took 25 years. Ideally, world over a fighter jet project takes more than 20 years.

To build a fourth generation fighter aircraft from scratch with a countrywide aerospace ecosystem and research, testing and certification facilities in less than three decades is, by any standards, remarkable technology leapfrog. Anywhere in the world it would draw generous praise but in India, thanks to media attention with questionable intent. Even while mentioning reasons for delays in the program, DM Manohar Parikar agreed in Parliament that lack of trained engineers, infrastructure, including test facilities had played a major role.

How good is HAL Tejas (LCA) and where it headed from here?
Tejas test pilots continue to believe that the aircraft is more versatile than MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat), MiG-27 and Jaguar (primarily ground strike aircraft), and all variants of the MiG-21. They even say it can take on the Pakistan Air Force’s early F-16 variants and outclass the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder. Deliveries of combat standard units of Tejas Mk-I began on 17 January 2015, with final operational clearance (FOC) expected Q1 2016. In a major breakthrough IAF recently ordered 120 HAL Tejas. IAF wants the final version should have advanced (AESA) radar, air to air refueling, BVR missiles and electronic jammers to block enemy radars.

Future Developments
ADA is also working on an improved version, HAL Tejas Mk-II, with greater capability based on Indian Navy’s prolonged requirements. Looking into higher drag on water surface HAL Tejas Mk-II will be powered with GE F-414 engines that produce 98kN of peak thrust. Apart from engine, Tejas Mk-II will feature upgraded avionics, more advanced radar and longer combat radius.

Meanwhile a nation surrounded with two aggressive neighbors can’t afford to have just fourth generation fighter. The Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, one of the fighter J-20 going to be in series production from next year onwards and intended to export to friendly nations. While India realized the situation back in 2008 and started a JV with Russia to develop fifth generation fighter (FGFA) but lack of co-ordination between the nations stalled the project sometime back and IAF now wants to buy Russian version of FGFA T-50 on Government to Government agreement.

Meanwhile IAF with his local partner ADA wants to develop an indigenous fifth generation fighter (AMCA). At the moment the project is out of definition phase and entering to funding phase. AMCA is a much bigger program compared to LCA, in LCA the country leapfrogged from nowhere to fourth generation fighter aircraft. In case of AMCA while the LCA platform will help us, however, our scientist needs to crack number crucial technology like advance radar, Stealth technology and high power engine, currently USA and Russia possesses the technology and China somehow successful. To make the project successful we need larger Research and development base with serious funding upfront.

Now, the good news
In the process of building an indigenous fighter aircraft, India has almost solved the puzzle of fighter aircraft building. With favorable conditions, and proper planning, the successor of Kaveri engines will hopefully be ready by the time India is ready to produce the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). The LCA project has built India’s capabilities in fighter aircraft production from ground up. India can repeat the same success story with AMCA, only this time faster. As they say, it is only hard the first time!


Source Link: http://www.orissadiary.com/ShowOriyaColumn.asp?id=62729
As I had commented on LCA thread, what we missed here while praising or criticizing Tejas is that ADA and HAL converted this plane into a multi role fighter which was conceived as a humble interceptor carrying 2 ton load and speed of mach 1.5. The platform still offers a huge potential to improve. Recently HAL on its website increased the payload MTOW from 13300 Kg to 13500 kg. I expect a slash in weight and aerodynamic improvement.
 

garg_bharat

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
5,078
Likes
10,138
Country flag
in the field of IT, none of the Indian companies come anywhere close. If you look at the top software products (not services), almost all of them are non-Indian.
There are Indian software products which work and are quite mature. The size of Indian market is small; and access to foreign markets is limited. As domestic market grows, the space for local software products will grow too.

Overseas customers do not pay Indians for bad quality. Indians survive because of quality.
 

sasum

Atheist but not Communists.
New Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
1,435
Likes
761
Coming to India IT giants, giants, they are; cutting edge, they are not - not even closely. If you think about it, the Indian Postal Department is also a giant. Building 5th generation aircraft takes a lot of quality, and in the field of IT, none of the Indian companies come anywhere close. If you look at the top software products (not services), almost all of them are non-Indian.
That is the thing. These people don't even realise that day in day out they are using Microsoft, Adobe, Google, Twitter etc. none of which is owned by these so called desi software giants. Ignorance is bliss. If you show them the mirror, they dub you Marxist (sic) ! And when ignorance meets arrogance, the cocktail becomes self-destructive.
 

cannonfodder

New Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
1,570
Likes
4,426
Country flag
People here need to visit microsoft, google, apple, facebook, amazon and qualcomm headquarters in US. What happens when Indians go abroad?? Do their brains grow out suddenly.... Indian IT is not cutting edge that has more to do with lack of R&D and prevalent education system, no risk taking. Additionally things don't change suddenly.
 

pmaitra

New Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,600
There are Indian software products which work and are quite mature. The size of Indian market is small; and access to foreign markets is limited. As domestic market grows, the space for local software products will grow too.

Overseas customers do not pay Indians for bad quality. Indians survive because of quality.
It is not about the size. It is about the quality.

That is the thing. These people don't even realise that day in day out they are using Microsoft, Adobe, Google, Twitter etc. none of which is owned by these so called desi software giants. Ignorance is bliss. If you show them the mirror, they dub you Marxist (sic) ! And when ignorance meets arrogance, the cocktail becomes self-destructive.
Ha ha ha, yeah. Reminds me of Erdogan. You should see his claims about Muslims sending rockets and discovering America. India is moving in the same direction. We invite scientists from all over the world and brag about the Flying Chariot and Vimana Shastra.

Why are we even negotiating Rafale and FGFA, if we already have the technology of the Flying Chariot?

Height of delusion and narcissism, or perhaps, mental affliction. If they drive over a nail and the tire deflates, they'll accuse the nail of being a Marxist.

On a related note, have you heard of the city called Ranchi? o_O
 

Articles

Top