AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[aero_sp]

AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

Aircrafts like FGFA and Su 30 MKI falls on Heavy category, see F 22's PW 119 delivers more than 300 kN , same FGFA also gets more than 300 kN with AL 41 FP.

But IAF's medium category AMCA needs a slow downed low weight and Low thrust engine..

Yes. My question is same why IAF require medium fighter

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[Abhijeet Dey]

Yes. My question is same why IAF require medium fighter

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Yes it like IAF going for highly expensive Rafale instead of license built Su-30 MKI.

 

[Pulkit]

Friends I fail to understand why IAF wants weight to be restricted to 25 ton. If there are higher thrust proven engines are available which will be able ro support 30 to 35 ton air craft. Higher weight will give higher load and range. What is the logic behing testricting our capacity.

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Thats still a mystery .....
Why they want medium category :
1)Heavy category are difficult to maintain ,availability is usually a issue and operational cost is far more compared to the light or medium a/c.
2)Light aircraft has very limited operational capability and for many operation we need heavy a/c and as its too expensive medium comes into picture....

Yes. My question is same why IAF require medium fighter

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a example i read some where .
If you want to send aircraft against JF17 it will be Tejas MK1 or MK2 or Medium (AMCA) .
MK1 MK2 are sufficient to beat JF17 anyday just to avoid surprises and confirm victory you can send AMCA but you cannot risk SU.


It was mirage performance during kargil which actually made IAF wanting for medium aircraft.

 

[Pulkit]

Yes it like IAF going for highly expensive Rafale instead of license built Su-30 MKI.

did not understand what you meant here and its relevance?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

i think india was asking for TOT in F414. US will never give that
same with EJ 200

what about kaveri the K9+ programme and the K10 programme.

i think india was asking for TOT in F414. US will never give that
same with EJ 200

what about kaveri the K9+ programme and the K10 programme.

actually we have tot but india wanted a share of research collaboration for drdo in the project which as per reports rejected by americanS

 

[aero_sp]

Thats still a mystery .....
Why they want medium category :
1)Heavy category are difficult to maintain ,availability is usually a issue and operational cost is far more compared to the light or medium a/c.
2)Light aircraft has very limited operational capability and for many operation we need heavy a/c and as its too expensive medium comes into picture....




a example i read some where .
If you want to send aircraft against JF17 it will be Tejas MK1 or MK2 or Medium (AMCA) .
MK1 MK2 are sufficient to beat JF17 anyday just to avoid surprises and confirm victory you can send AMCA but you cannot risk SU.


It was mirage performance during kargil which actually made IAF wanting for medium aircraft.

On the front of maintenance cost I can say that it does not make any difference if you manage a 25 T or 35T category aircraft that is because the system complexity and duel engine configuration is same for both category air crafts. N i bet the maintenance cost of rafel must be higher than SU30. In case of AMCAit will go higher as it will include fifgth generation elements tobe maintained.
Yes for sure there will be marginal cost saving per sortie due ro lower fuel consumption. But then you are sacrificing huge amount of capacity superiority. What if tomorrow Pak gets J20 or J31. How will you manage it. Is the 25 T category aircraft will be sufficient, or yhen we will again cry for more capable FGFA. And if this is the possiblty why not develop our won fightet today it self more capable than FGFA?

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[SajeevJino]

Yes. My question is same why IAF require medium fighter

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It's come in Every aspects.

Firstly the cost, off set infrastructure, performance improvement, Medium size hangers, we already have the FGFA for Heavy Strikes and dominance, Its based on strike Purpose, Low flying and Precession strikes

 

[SajeevJino]

a example i read some where .
If you want to send aircraft against JF17 it will be Tejas MK1 or MK2 or Medium (AMCA) .
MK1 MK2 are sufficient to beat JF17 anyday just to avoid surprises and confirm victory you can send AMCA but you cannot risk SU.


It was mirage performance during kargil which actually made IAF wanting for medium aircraft.

Tell me what if PAF dispatch it's JF 17 near to the Punjabi or Rajastani Borders. you think IAF will sends the LCA MK 1 and 2 for cost issues ..!!

 

[SajeevJino]

actually we have tot but india wanted a share of research collaboration for drdo in the project which as per reports rejected by americanS

who told you It's rejected ... program delayed

 

[SajeevJino]

On the front of maintenance cost I can say that it does not make any difference if you manage a 25 T or 35T category aircraft that is because the system complexity and duel engine configuration is same for both category air crafts. N i bet the maintenance cost of rafel must be higher than SU30. In case of AMCAit will go higher as it will include fifgth generation elements tobe maintained.
Yes for sure there will be marginal cost saving per sortie due ro lower fuel consumption. But then you are sacrificing huge amount of capacity superiority. What if tomorrow Pak gets J20 or J31. How will you manage it. Is the 25 T category aircraft will be sufficient, or yhen we will again cry for more capable FGFA. And if this is the possiblty why not develop our won fightet today it self more capable than FGFA?

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do you know why the western fighters in IAF has the highest service availability rate, why IAF has bunch of spare stocks only for Miarge and Jaguar fleet ..!

 

[aero_sp]

do you know why the western fighters in IAF has the highest service availability rate, why IAF has bunch of spare stocks only for Miarge and Jaguar fleet ..!

Sir, still my doubts ate not clear. Please provide some link or literature which will establish necessity medium category out of small and heavy category aircrafts

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[SajeevJino]

Sir, still my doubts ate not clear. Please provide some link or literature which will establish necessity medium category out of small and heavy category aircrafts

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Please drop the Sir..

will post the link of ASR or AMCA once it is released.. the early 2010 ASR is not valid since it's major characteristics are changed,

Key points of 2010 ASR

1 ) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight .

2 ) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.

3) AESA Radar

4) Semi – Stealth is not an option , IAF wants it to be fully Stealthy aircraft with low RCS .

5 ) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it more stealthier

6 ) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars,Engines,Avionics)

 

[Pulkit]

Tell me what if PAF dispatch it's JF 17 near to the Punjabi or Rajastani Borders. you think IAF will sends the LCA MK 1 and 2 for cost issues ..!!

Then are you asking FGFA should be sent up against JF 17 in future?
it is not just they cost but the strategic importance of an aircraft as well.

Firstly it was a example I read somewhere .
second I agreed with it.
You have to counter it with a superior one but you cannot just send your Main aircraft everytime a copy is sent towards you.

 

[Pulkit]

On the front of maintenance cost I can say that it does not make any difference if you manage a 25 T or 35T category aircraft that is because the system complexity and duel engine configuration is same for both category air crafts. N i bet the maintenance cost of rafel must be higher than SU30. In case of AMCAit will go higher as it will include fifgth generation elements tobe maintained.
Yes for sure there will be marginal cost saving per sortie due ro lower fuel consumption. But then you are sacrificing huge amount of capacity superiority. What if tomorrow Pak gets J20 or J31. How will you manage it. Is the 25 T category aircraft will be sufficient, or yhen we will again cry for more capable FGFA. And if this is the possiblty why not develop our won fightet today it self more capable than FGFA?

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N i bet the maintenance cost of rafel must be higher than SU30.

Elaborate

This is what I think:
FGFA will be inducted in IAF and take over the responsibility of Su .
You cannot plan to have a light aircraft of 5th gen due to reasons like cost effectiveness and efficiency.
the next possible aircraft is a medium one which we are designing/planning to design.

You are already working on a Heavy Fifth gen which will be staying for 40 years once inducted .
Designing same config are targeting another aircraft in another 15 years is an economic disaster.

FGFA can be upgraded when required .

I do agree we can have our own fifth gen heavy but that will be needed or must be planned 25 years from now.
by then who knows 6th 7th how many gen will be there??

 

[SajeevJino]

Then are you asking FGFA should be sent up against JF 17 in future?
it is not just they cost but the strategic importance of an aircraft as well.

I never said like that.. either Su 30 MKI, or the MiG 29 will be sent to intercept even if they send their
F 7's

Firstly it was a example I read somewhere .
second I agreed with it.
You have to counter it with a superior one but you cannot just send your Main aircraft everytime a copy is sent towards you.

yawn .. which is main aircraft.. deployment based on the borders will send the Interceptors.. Not the selected Fighters,, if pakis sending a fighter near to our borders in Rajastan, we scrambles fighters from nearest Air base, Jodhpur has MiG 29 and Su 30 MKI .. so they will dispatched to scramble the enemy aircraft.. you should know why LCA series won't be deployed in front line bases

 

[Pulkit]

I never said like that.. either Su 30 MKI, or the MiG 29 will be sent to intercept even if they send their
F 7's

yawn .. which is main aircraft.. deployment based on the borders will send the Interceptors.. Not the selected Fighters,, if pakis sending a fighter near to our borders in Rajastan, we scrambles fighters from nearest Air base, Jodhpur has MiG 29 and Su 30 MKI .. so they will dispatched to scramble the enemy aircraft.. you should know why LCA series won't be deployed in front line bases

You just don't fly Su for the role of interceptor or for that case Mig 29 even.
That was the role performed by the Mig 21s mainly .
They were the horses of IAF making one sortie after another.

If we have send Su every time why we even need rafale then lets get all Su

you send Su 30 or Mig 29 when you want to have confrontation but when it comes to interception its just a check made so that the aircraft can go back to its own fly zone or you can say chased away to it and for it Tejas is great.

Actually I do not know why Tejas (LCA) wont be deployed in front line bases?

In the words of our DM Mr Manohar parrikar Tejas will replace Mig21 which means yes they will be stationed near border as well.

 

[SajeevJino]

You just don't fly Su for the role of interceptor or for that case Mig 29 even.
That was the role performed by the Mig 21s mainly .
They were the horses of IAF making one sortie after another.

If we have send Su every time why we even need rafale then lets get all Su

you send Su 30 or Mig 29 when you want to have confrontation but when it comes to interception its just a check made so that the aircraft can go back to its own fly zone or you can say chased away to it and for it Tejas is great.

Actually I do not know why Tejas (LCA) wont be deployed in front line bases?

In the words of our DM Mr Manohar parrikar Tejas will replace Mig21 which means yes they will be stationed near border as well.

I Can;t get what you wrote above.. Simply I say nearby airbase will dispatch a Interceptor fighter to scramble enemy Fighters near Border, sometimes it would be Su 30 sometime MiG 29, maybe MiG 21 too .. It's depend upon the deployed fighter in the designated bases

 

[Pulkit]

I Can;t get what you wrote above.. Simply I say nearby airbase will dispatch a Interceptor fighter to scramble enemy Fighters near Border, sometimes it would be Su 30 sometime MiG 29, maybe MiG 21 too .. It's depend upon the deployed fighter in the designated bases

yes it do depend of the availability of aircraft and the response time.

Just a query... Is only one kind of A/C is stationed at one base?

 

[SajeevJino]

yes it do depend of the availability of aircraft and the response time.
Just a query... Is only one kind of A/C is stationed at one base?

Mostly one or two kind of Combat Jets..

Lets take the Adampur AFB in Punjab, it has two sqn of MiG 29 ( Sqn 223, Sqn 47 ) both from western command 8th wing.. there is no more fighter models in that base only Mig 29's

same goes for others too

 

[ersakthivel]

It might looks funny.. but some credit should go to A.K Antony.

He didn't took any decision in his carrier as a DM.. not even MMRCA !! So now, Parrikar had option to reduce MMRCA bill to support LCA.

I think we already have the ToT in certain area's of both F 404 and F 414, but co develop re engineering talks just halted..

Those Engine ToT is not comes with 100%, but some limited area's only.

Same applies to the EJ 200 .



No idea ..let some other will clear our doubts @ersakthivel

Eurojet or GE 414 will do for prototyping.

But if AMCA has to be meaningful , we have to further develop K-9 kaveri version.

We now have a working kaveri engine which was tested for 3000 hours til now. Once testing reaches 400 hours it will be certified for flight trials in a twin engine fighter.

It does not have a SCB tech or high OPR margins. By adding SCB and improving on Turbine entry temp and operating pressure ratio we can get a 100 Kn plus engine with a decade, if proper efforts are undertaken.

Now there are reports that SCB tech was validated a few months ago,

because the present GE-414 EPE plus of 110 plu Kn that is being considered for Super hornet upgrade came from the Ge-404 line of 80 KN.

SO the same line of development can be had on k-9 to get AMCA engine. But for that AMCA should be a light weight design in twin engine fighter to be on the safer side like Mig-29 was.