AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Khagesh]

The fact that an Indian American woman is heading DARPA seems like data-point against the desirability of hiring Indians who have been exposed to the west. Once back in India how do we know they will not push the interests of those they had earlier collaborated with.

Indian MIC should ideally be built on Indian scientific expertise, all born and brought up, here in India, with only carefully watched professional interaction being the only exposure allowed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The former Government had its own policies to restrict number of scientist, This has only changed very recently ( 2-3 months back ) ..

So many Indians are working as scientists all over the world. Why doesn't Indian govt use some mechanism to tap that potential? After all, American DARPA is headed by an Indian American woman.

 

[grampiguy]

The fact that an Indian American woman is heading DARPA seems like data-point against the desirability of hiring Indians who have been exposed to the west. Once back in India how do we know they will not push the interests of those they had earlier collaborated with.

Indian MIC should ideally be built on Indian scientific expertise, all born and brought up, here in India, with only carefully watched professional interaction being the only exposure allowed.

Hahahaha...contrary to what you say, overseas Indians tend to become highly nationalists, due to the distance from motherland. They don't move back to India because they feel powerless to bring about any change there. Don't forget that even father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi, was also an overseas Indian.

Compare it to China, which is actively seeking to bring back its nationals who have studied in western universities. Most of these returned Chinese have gone ahead to build mega achievements inside China and given tough competition to westerners. So much so that now American/Australian govts are putting restrictions against certain students in their sensitive and crucial research labs.

A state is made up of people and if you don't trust your own people, there is no bottom to that endless pit. Its very similar to arguments put up by DPSUs and OFBs that only they are patriots and all private companies are traitors. Quite funny, no doubt.

 

[Khagesh]

Hahahaha...contrary to what you say, overseas Indians tend to become highly nationalists, due to the distance from motherland. They don't move back to India because they feel powerless to bring about any change there. Don't forget that even father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi, was also an overseas Indian.

Compare it to China, which is actively seeking to bring back its nationals who have studied in western universities. Most of these returned Chinese have gone ahead to build mega achievements inside China and given tough competition to westerners. So much so that now American/Australian govts are putting restrictions against certain students in their sensitive and crucial research labs.

A state is made up of people and if you don't trust your own people, there is no bottom to that endless pit. Its very similar to arguments put up by DPSUs and OFBs that only they are patriots and all private companies are traitors. Quite funny, no doubt.

I may have given you the impression that I doubt every NRI. Sorry about that. I have in some other post said that, not all inside India are worthy of trust and not all outside India are fit for rejection.

But some places only one compromised person can play havoc. As it is, merely with the talent hired and employed in India, our agencies have to work hard to keep people under control. There are cesspools in the net which clearly show that DPSU and Indian research establishments are not exactly sealed tight and there are significant security risks. You can find these out yourself with simple googling. Under such a situation it is too risky to hire people from outside India. One bad example and all the good work is going to go down the tube.

Above all else India produces engineers in very large numbers and there is absolutely no shortage of talent.

I would rather prefer entity to entity formalized cooperation instead of allowing full access to individuals who have not remained within the system forever and grown with it. This is the model chosen till now and its working well.

Just IMHO.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Sorry posted it in wrong section .

 

[cobra commando]

March 7, 2015: India has approached Russia to partner it on certain critical technologies for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). Top sources tell SP's that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has asked Russia for assistance in developing thrust vectoring and certain other technologies on the concept fifth generation jet platform. There has been steady progress in the programme following the basic design freeze. The ADA has opened discussions with turbofan houses in the US, Russia and Europe for what it believes need to be 110 kN engines in twin configuration for the AMCA. The engines will specifically need to support supercruise. The ADA has indicated to engine manufacturers that modifications could potentially be a joint effort in country, involving the DRDO and other agencies if necessary. Either way, the ADA has ambitiously aimed at producing up to four prototypes, with the first rolling out in 2019. As the ADA recently set down as the aircraft's profile and definition, "The AMCA is being designed as a stealth, medium weight, twin engine, multimission aircraft with a swing-role capability. Among the advanced technologies that confer stealth capabilities are serpentine air intakes, internal weapons bays, radar absorbing structure (RAS), radar absorbing materials (RAM), frequency selective surface radome and conformal air data probes. The avionics system features integrated modular architecture supporting NCW capabilities, advanced pilot- vehicle interface, pilot associate and integrated vehicle health management. The integrated flight and propulsion control system will combine the traditional flight control functions with thrust vectoring and engine control functions."
Russia to partner in AMCA Technologies - SP’s Exculsive

 

[Victor3]

What is so hard to make a invisible plane? Im civilian and i do not know exacly how they do it but..... about shape.... well you can simply make a angled empty body and try it whit a radar and then make another body then compare results and make bodies that give best radar echo. And about composite materials well you just take a lot of materials and verify its behaviour whit radar waves. Using ofcourse more complex materials from 2 3 elements created at different temperatures and added whit chemicals. Even by succesive tryings in wich change the amout of one or other material could be obtained good results. Lets think can be done a huge project in wich all materials in world can be mixed just changing the proportion. All this if you dont know the chemistry laws.... After that you make the avionics and so on. And what is so hard to make a aircraft body that gives best looping and speed and reduced drag? Just make succesive tryings whit different shapes and perfect the shapes that give right performance. Reduce or increase wingspan by 10 cm at every trying and you get best shape.

 

[Victor3]

AMCA could be better used whit a awacs like? Rather than tejas. Someone said that tejas could carry electronics. Awacs like too. Only problem would be awacs like are slow compare to aircrafts.

 

[Victor3]

Mi

I would ideally look at AMCA and Tejas II working together, like a Hunter-killer team.
I do not limit Tejas II to just air defence and interception, but also to secondary air superiority, where it is able to accompany AMCA over enemy territory. AMCA is a stealth plane and has all attributes of being stealth by design, but Tejas can be VLO due to its size and also use good jammers (similar to one in SPECTRA) and be electronically stealth.

Thus section of AMCA and Tejas II can work together in better symbiotic way, where Tejas benefits from the long range and more powerful AMCA radar to target, where as it remains stealthy and does not emit.

But due to lower cost of operation, Tejas can be used more for regular flying and regular sorties.

For AMCA its more of getting and developing the avionics, and hence the development of it should be much faster.

AMCA is a stealth striker not a fighter. Tejas can be (depending on enemy missiles) easily shoot down. Then the enemys interceptors could shoot him. Ofcourse all depending on own missile and electronics. If AMCA succesfully reach enemy teritory in stealth then tejas could be use later. But in modern war you start whit destroying enemy land AA. This would be made whit surface to surface and sea to surface missiles. After that a vulnerable striker like AMCA could interfere. Depends how far from striker the missiles fly in this the plane could safely launch missile from distance and retreat. Since india has a lot of satellites gps guidance instead of laser targeting could be used. First of all the intelligence must say if enemy has patrol air fleet then or come whit striker or whit tejas one for bombing other for intercept.

 

[saik]

some of the common components I can think are
- stores management and common weapons array
- common communications
- common pods/built ins for IRST, FLIR, radar LRUs, (perhaps only the number of T/R modules differ)
- common mission computing
- common FLO
- common structural assembly components - composites etc
- paint/skins [not the shape, but materials]
- sensors/actuators, shape memory alloys, etc,
- common FDAEC engine!
- common jigs/size and shape adjustable assembly lines
-think about designs and production engineering /concurrent lines

 

[akshay m]

AMCA Stealth Fighter Update from Aero India 2015

The design of the AMCA scale model displayed at Aero India 2015 was identical to the design of the AMCA scale model displayed at Aero India 2013. This wasn't the case during earlier shows - Aero India 2011 AMCA design differed from the 2009 design, and the 2013 design differed from the 2011 design.

As far as the ADA is concerned, the current AMCA design is final, having been tested to full satisfaction in a supersonic wind tunnel in the US. (At the time of Aero India 2013, the design had only been tested in a subsonic wind tunnel in India.)

Going by the displayed design, AMCA will


Feature two engines without thrust vectoring, relying exclusively on high power to weight ratio for super-maneuverability.
Not have all aspect stealth - engine nozzles are not shaped, though ADA intends to minimize IR signature of the engine exhaust.
Be a single seat fighter.


ADA is all set to roll with the AMCA project, but the IAF isn't impressed with the aircraft's current feature set. The service has drawn up very detailed and ambitious PQSR which includes all aspect stealth, super-maneuverability through thrust vectoring and twin seats.

ADA is confident that it can redesign the AMCA for all aspect stealth, twin-seats and thrust vectoring, but points out that these capabilities would push up costs and stretch timelines. ADA is in the process of responding to the IAF PSQRs with feature wise cost and time frame implications.

(No twin seat stealth fighter has been developed so far because adding a second seat reduces stealth.)

Thrust vectoring is likely to be conditional on Russian willingness to transfer technology.

In view of the differences between ADA and the IAF, it maybe a while before AMCA staff requirements are finalized. Hopefully, the IAF will challenge ADA with realistic performance and timeline requirements, not doom the project by asking for the moon as it sometimes tends to do.

Meanwhile, IDP sentinel has learn't that LRDE has been tasked with developing a conformal X-band AESA for the AMCA, which means that the pilot will be able to track and engage threats not just in the front quarter, but also on either side.

Clearly, it's not just the IAF that needs a reality check.Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: AMCA Stealth Fighter Update from Aero India 2015

 

[Dharmateja]

As far as the ADA is concerned, the current AMCA design is final, having been tested to full satisfaction in a supersonic wind tunnel in the US. (At the time of Aero India 2013, the design had only been tested in a subsonic wind tunnel in India.)

Fulltoo facepalm. I can't comprehend how anyone can even contemplate doing such a thing? Why not just give blueprints of the aircraft and be done with the charade? If you don't have a windtunnel.. you build one here or wait until it is built.

 

[nrj]

Put that AMCA aside and build basic engineering infrastructure first.

 

[myana]

Builidng of Wind tunnel required for model evaluation are underway

DRDO plans 10 centres to drive high-end technologies | Business Standard News

It is looking at setting up more establishments in and around Hyderabad with an investment of around Rs 1,500 crore. The ministry of defence undertaking has already acquired 100 acre at Nagarjuna Sagar for setting up a systems and component testing facility, while works on hypersonic and transonic wind tunnel facilities at Shamirpet and a radar cross-section measurement facility at Dundigal, both on the outskirts of Hyderabad, are under way.

"The tunnels facility, the second in the country with the first being in Bangalore, should be operational in three years from now, while the radar cross-section unit will be up and running within a year," Chander said.
According to avinash chander it will take another 3 to operationalize.

We are already late in building 5th Gen If we wait 3 more years to for windtunnels to start and then design AMCA by the time its design gets finalized 6th generation planes will be flying.

Coming to the point of American knowing the design details any person who has attended AeroIndia would have got complete information about the Plane's exterior design what really matters is the plane's skin and coating to minimize the reflection, radar, avionics and ECM pods or LRUs that go into that. These info cannot be concluded by wind tunnel models.
They still can know some characteristics like plane aerodynamic behavior at subsonic and supersonic speeds. But we have to deal with it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Budget allocation for Air-force, Source Broadsword ..

 

[aero_sp]

Budget allocation for Air-force, Source Broadsword ..

I think this allocation is for next 15 years

 

[akshay m]

GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Russian JSC Rosoboronexport/JSC Klimov have entered into a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint development of Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle for future generation aero-engine applications.

MoU was signed during Aero India-2015 held in Bengaluru during 19-22 February 2015. Dr K Tamilmani, DS, DG (Aero), DRDO and Dr CP Ramanarayanan, OS, Director, GTRE and the Russian team were part of the memorandum of understanding (MoU).

According to Sources close to idrw.org Klimov have offered to develop thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology based on the universal KLITV (KLImov Thrust Vector) technology which can be customised for fitment on any jet engines.

Sources also informed that thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology offered can be matted with engines of any OEM's even if engines are from United states. India will commence development work on Homegrown 5th generation fighter aircraft project which as per IAF request will have thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN).

India is yet to select engines for AMCA, but Russians have assured India that even if India selects American or European engines for AMCA Project, they can customise it for their engines. While Europeans have developed their own TVN technology for Eurojet EJ200 engines and Americans to have their own technology.GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle | idrw.org

more info about the KLITV
JSC "Klimov" - Trust vertoring nozzle
@Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel
could this used on the tejas mk2 as well??
will it be worth the changes in FCS and time required?

 

[ersakthivel]

GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle

more info about the KLITV
JSC "Klimov" - Trust vertoring nozzle
@Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel
could this used on the tejas mk2 as well??
will it be worth the changes in FCS and time required?

I think it can be used on any engine that is assembled or designed in india.

the deal seems to be tech oriented and not tied to any particular engine type.

So we can use this thrust vectoring tech on any engine including the new one for AMCA and even on present and future Kaveri versions.

 

[Zebra]

GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle

more info about the KLITV
JSC "Klimov" - Trust vertoring nozzle
@Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel
could this used on the tejas mk2 as well??
will it be worth the changes in FCS and time required?

Anyway, MATV.........................................

please watch it @ 2:00

 

[Zebra]

F-16 MATV Extended Video (Rare Footage)

Uploaded on May 16, 2008, by StargateAddictSL