AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Kaveri Engine

He types a lot of nonsense. Don't take him seriously. There is a reason why all senior members simply ignore him.

Maybe. I cannot find that out. I have been following his posts on Armour threads which appeared impressive & he appears very well-versed with the craft. He also appears to have some first-hand experience of Indian MBT's. Maybe, he is not into aviation as you have said.

AMCA is on hold. They have moved all their manpower into LCA program because of a new unrealistic deadline which they are hoping to meet before Anthony saar leaves office.

So, in your opinion, is it good or bad ? Can LCA meet this clearance deadline ? If it does, it would great for expediting the programme, right ?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

I did mention that it was put on hold Officially unofficially they can do what ever they want. Executive cannot overrule political elected masters. It will send bad example. Hope you understand what i am saying.

Sir, Is there any official news quoting any official by name to this effect?

Most of the sources are quoting unnamed defence ministry officials, which is not authentic, In case a minister or high ranking defence ministry official by name has said so, it can be accepted.

Also there are not much of design and development work left to be done on LCA mk-1. What needs to be quickened is the phase of testing, which is not the job of scientists but that of the quick reaction team formed by DRDO chief comprising of some ADA officials and HAL officials to this effect.

I think not every scientist at ADA is a member of this QRT. And they may be designing AMCA. SInce they have received their third revised ASR from IAF just an year ago, most of the job to be done by the design team must be in the realm of theory ,i.e the project definition phase nothing related to manufacturing activity as of yet.

So no one can say whether even this project definition phase too has been stopped and those members were also put on the LCA mk-1 QRT team, which is highly unlikely , because simply saying there is not much design and development left to be done in LCA IOC -1 to IOC -2 that needs the entire ADA establishment to work on it.

Why I am saying this confidently is each and every news report saying

1. that there is a design flaw in LCA ai intake that stops the fighter from reaching it's designated AOA of 24 degrees ,

2. And it's STR could not reach the IAF specification because of it's over weight ,

3. cannot cross the sound barrier at sea level because it has massive drag,

4,It's landing wheels have serious design issues


have all been conclusively proved as BS till now , because the MOS for defence himself saying that LCA has reached the design STR and has got the approval of IAF just a few days back.

Media reports (Ind.Exp.) that the GOI /MOD is "happy" with progress on the aircraft being developed,LCA and IJT,notwithstanding the 3 decade time taken.The MoS DM speaking to reporters said that good progress had been made in the last 6 months after the IAF had hauled up HAL and the ADA for the delays.Issues regarding "wheels and overheating of brakes" had been rectified.IOC now expected Nov-2013 and FOC-Dec. 2014. The Minister said that the IOC for the IJT may be delayed by a "month or two".On FGFA cost escalation

Even if we ignore the obvious spin by the MOS ," good progress had been made in the last 6 months after the IAF had hauled up HAL and the ADA for the delays ", it is obvious if the original design is not correct these "good progress in the past 6 months" can not be made.

Some journos magnify some one-off problem in a separate platform as a program wide design disaster according to their own fancy most of the times.

Why ? As an Engineer i myself know that most of the problems that they have been tom tomming would have been solved at design phase in wind tunnel in itself.

No Design engineer worth his salt will go on an expansive prototype and PV, LSP program , before studying and resolving all such debilitating problems during the design phase itself. SO reports like the one above are written by people who have no knowledge of design process in a big R& D program.

It is like saying that Benz decided to build the world's most luxurious car and due to the flaws in design process it ended up as a tractor.

Even LCA mk-2 is entering the build phase already , So there is not much designing to do even in mk-2 by now.

Most of the delays in LCA program can be attributed


to the late funding which came in only in 1993 due to India's economic crisis,

New demands from IAF for higher weight , more launch stress inducing Air to Air missile which led to redesigning of the entire wing structure in FSED phase-II,

and slow production of PVs and LSPs due to the sanctions as V. K. Saraswath himself told so. These are one off events all ganging up to slow the fighter

 

[sayareakd]

@ersakthivel, well you are right that news report that AMCA is put on hold is by unnamed official, nothing official about it, but do expect these type of things in matter of defence. But if you take this news with what is going on with LCA and all the statements made by Antony for IOC 2 and FOC and the subsequent rush which was shown by the new DRDO chief and the new fasten up test schedule of LCA points to this fact only that they are now fully concentrating on LCA and reverse meaning is that AMCA is officially put on hold. Ofcouse R&D is continues process and it should never be out on hold.

I think what they want to do is to finish of LCA fast so it will be inducted fast, then go for next fighter that is AMCA.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

Maybe. I cannot find that out. I have been following his posts on Armour threads which appeared impressive & he appears very well-versed with the craft. He also appears to have some first-hand experience of Indian MBT's. Maybe, he is not into aviation as you have said.



So, in your opinion, is it good or bad ? Can LCA meet this clearance deadline ? If it does, it would great for expediting the programme, right ?

Even if you put all the Aeronautical Engineers in the world on LCA team , there is no way you can make up for the delays in funding and sanctions that and new demands from IAF which are the reason for 50 percent of it's 3 decades development team.

Simple truth is that there is no major design work pending in LCA. All finished and freezed. What requires to be speeded up is the liasion between HAl-ADA -IAF combine , so that the test flight program progresses fast without any delay. And if there are any minor tweaks if needed to be done should be done faster and not to be delayed due to inter department wrangling which so far stalled the LCA program.

Whatever the minister's statement that they gave the deadline and so on are only motivated towards scoring political brownie points for the government .

If at all the UPA wanted LCA to finish faster , the time to concentrate was in their first term , Not now,

Also . I am no tank expert. But I am a mechanical Engineer and passed 6 exams on production drawing and Perspective drawing and with the kind of knowledge that is floating on the net , I just couldnot put up with the BS thrown in that thread by few posters posing to be defence professionals.


Since all their mischief is exposed , now these guys are quiet. So I won't be posting there anymore if those guys keep quiet .

Same is the case in LCA -III closed and the LCA-IV thread here. I am astonished that people who don't have even the basic knowledge about how the design process of such basic things as Lawnmower thrusting out to say because of bad design and inexperience of the ADA LCA is stuck at mach 1.4, It can not cross Mach 1 at sea level, It's STR can not even exceed 17 Deg And it's AOA is stuck at 16 Deg,so on and so forth.

Even in mk-1 the LCA has far exceeded so much of it's original ASR requirement laid out in the article by Retires Airmarshal cum HAL chief - MSD WOOLLEN in ADA Tejas website and in mk-2 it will reach so close to Grippen- NG .

I know most of those bogus claims made by the so many people was due to the ignorance of those guys who don't even know the conceptualization -- project definition- Tech demo-prototype - testing-Limited series production-Full stream production cycle of Product development.

I know that If LCA has problems in air intake and drag issues,it cannot reach the AOA of 24 Deg and STR specified by IAF.

LCA was the first fighter in the world to be built using a new software program and during the design phase itself designers know what is the effective drag, what is the capacity of the air intake and what AOA and STR will it reach once it gets it's FOC.Simply it is not like lets design some airframe with some air intake and some engine, test flight it and lets see what top speed it achieves with what AOA and STR.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, well you are right that news report that AMCA is put on hold is by unnamed official, nothing official about it, but do expect these type of things in matter of defence. But if you take this news with what is going on with LCA and all the statements made by Antony for IOC 2 and FOC and the subsequent rush which was shown by the new DRDO chief and the new fasten up test schedule of LCA points to this fact only that they are now fully concentrating on LCA and reverse meaning is that AMCA is officially put on hold. Ofcouse R&D is continues process and it should never be out on hold.

I think what they want to do is to finish of LCA fast so it will be inducted fast, then go for next fighter that is AMCA.

http://newindianexpress.com/cities/...oncern-over-FDI/2013/05/18/article1595071.ece

LCA Variants

On the current status of the naval variant of light combat aircraft (LCA), Saraswat said the programme is on track.

By the end of this year, the skyjump of the naval LCA will be done from the shore-based test facility at Goa.

On the Air Force variant of LCA, the DRDO chief said the second production aircraft is currently under construction. The Air Force variant is based on fourth generation technology.

Close to 2,000 sorties have already been completed, he pointed out.

Advanced Aircraft

Saraswat said the project on advanced medium-combat aircraft is in the design stage.

"After this we will approach the government which will take an year's time. There are three major technologies being developed by the DRDO for the same.

"Once clearance is issued, we hope to start the production soon. No decision was taken by the DRDO or HAL or Defence Ministry to give up project," he said.

This report dates back to 18th MAY 2013. And it clearly expresses continuity as far AMCA design is considered. No put on Hold statement of any unnamed defence ministry official(there is no guarantee that an officer like that even exists in reality) is credible before this official statement.

So according to him they will approach the government for funding only next year after three needed techs are developed.By the time they approach the GOI for funding IOC-II will be over by long time. Then all and the sundry journos quoting top secret MOD sources can claim their reports are true.

Compare this to the New DRDO cheif statement which said we will finish AMCA in 12 years time. if it is put on hold how will make such a claim?truth is that a quick reaction team comprising the officials of ADA, HAL and IAF is formed to save the project from inter departmental stalling which was the hallmark of the program.

I am not a wee bit impressed by Antony's foaming and frothing regarding achieving the deadline for IOC-2 in time. It is all a political gimmick knowing fully well that the status of the program has advanced enough , so that once IOC-2 is completed , they can boast it was all due their unwavering effort.

Since LSP-7 and 8 have joined the team , it is only natural that we have some increased pace in flight testing in July. Because in earlier years the flight test team was short of these two new platforms which emerged after an year of grounding of the flight test program to redesign the entire fuel lines after a leak in one platform and for the adjustment of pilot seat height(with a new HMD the height of the pilot exceeded the height of the seat leading to safety issues in emergency bailouts. ) .

The year's delay was used to incorporate all the minor redesigns that needed to be done after a decade of flight test program so that LSP-8 is now closest to production model.

SO both the delay in the last few years and quickening in the last month have nothing to do with the spin put forth by the officials.

If at all the GOI and MOD was so serious the time to quicken the pace was in 2004. Not now.

 

[sayareakd]

DRDO chief expresses concern over FDI - The New Indian Express


This report dates back to 18th MAY 2013. And it clearly expresses continuity as far AMCA design is considered. No put on Hold statement of any unnamed defence ministry official(there is no guarantee that an officer like that even exists in reality) is credible before this official statement.

hope you are right, R&D should not be put to hold. in late 1980s and 1990 when US put pressure on us to stop work on Agni, Unofficially project continued.

 

[ersakthivel]

hope you are right, R&D should not be put to hold. in late 1980s and 1990 when US put pressure on us to stop work on Agni, Unofficially project continued.

R& D work for AMCA will never stop for speeding up LCA. because there is no point in disturbing one important long term program for speeding up a program that is almost close to finish .most of the acivity on LCA has now shifted to HAL's hands, This was indicated by ADA chief V. K. Saraswath himself in an interview.

Antony has promised 1500 cr to HAL for a new modern production line for tejas , since most of the HAL production line is not considered modern enough for a speedy roduction of Tejas as per ADA chief. Whether this money has been delivered or not, We don't now.

There were also few reports that the freezed design of composite body parts was given to TATA ADVANCED MATERIALS for 40 air frames from some open sources, we have to verify whether this is true or not. So not much design work is pending in LCA mk-1 that needs the disbanding of the AMCA team.

http://www.aame.in/2012/06/stealth-version-of-india-light-combat.html

Dr. V.K Saraswat, presently the Scientific Advisor to India's Defence Minister, delivered a keynote address at the recently held Aerospace Forum in Sweden that concluded on the 3rd of June, this year. Titled, 'Vision for India's Future Aerospace and Defence', he spoke of some of big ticket Aerospace development projects currently underway or are to commence shortly.

Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.

"Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy than the current Mk. 2 version, which is due to fly in the next two years with the General Electric F414 engine and be ready for operational trials in 2016. The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."

Some design of new tech for AMCA project is going on from 2002 itself when it had a name of MCA. Since the present AMCA is different from the original one , The DRDO chief himself has said that most of the tech developed for MCA will be put on LCA-mk-3. Again we don't know if anything by the name of LCA-mk-3 exists or not.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

The AMCA program does not require a 120KN engine. The current EJ-200 alone will suffice as far as thrust is concerned.



These things change. I suppose we will know when we will. I am not familiar with this requirement anyway.



He types a lot of nonsense. Don't take him seriously. There is a reason why all senior members simply ignore him.

AMCA is on hold. They have moved all their manpower into LCA program because of a new unrealistic deadline which they are hoping to meet before Anthony saar leaves office.

He types a lot of nonsense. Don't take him seriously. There is a reason why all senior members simply ignore him.

Who are the senior members? Fake tank sages like Miltarysta ,Damian and Dejawolf perhaps,,,,,,,,,

You can go to the Arjun MBT thread to see how their dirty linen is washed up and hung for everyone to see.

I can do without your jaundiced critique, Keep your wise counsel to yourself.

It's been long time, Since I replied to you. And let this be the last.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Kaveri Engine

Maybe. I cannot find that out. I have been following his posts on Armour threads which appeared impressive & he appears very well-versed with the craft. He also appears to have some first-hand experience of Indian MBT's. Maybe, he is not into aviation as you have said.

When he first came into the forum he said he was in the aeronautics stream and he was working in the nanotechnology field. Which didn't make sense. Then in his posts to Decklander he said he designs aircraft. Now in another post he said he is a mechanical engineer. I have never seen a bigger retard than him.

I still remember his stubborn self posting that IAF requirement for LCA was with 2 tons payload like the Mig-21. He didn't understand simple terms like CAS(Calibrated Air Speed) and confusing it to terms like Close Air Support. He doesn't know anything about aircraft, tanks and basically anything about the military.

His tank thread posts are nonsense. The others are wasting time on him. Some have already put him on the ignore list. The more of his posts you read, the less educated you get. He doesn't know anything. Period. I though he would have improved over time, but he hasn't. Recently he has only been repeating what I said earlier. The gyan I gave him nearly two years ago, he repeated on Decklander and that gave him a clean chit. When he added his own gyan to what he thought the LCA should be, it failed.

So, in your opinion, is it good or bad ? Can LCA meet this clearance deadline ? If it does, it would great for expediting the programme, right ?

Yes, putting the AMCA on hold is a good thing.

Anyway LCA cannot realistically meet the deadline, I mean FOC. It is too much in too little time. However I don't know how much resources DRDO has added on to the program after the new deadlines have been set. It is a political move anyway. Anthony wants credit before the country goes to the polls. I just hope IAF requirements are not shortchanged again, like it is happening with IOC-2.

But yeah, if the deadline is met AMCA will start early. The reason why Decklander and myself are against AMCA as it is is because IAF will later change the requirements again since the threat perception will most probably change again by 2030. Meaning we will have just another 5th gen aircraft in 2030 when we have a similar aircraft in 2022. Its importance will reduce by then. IAF will induct piecemeal numbers and ask for the next best thing. It is better if ADA unilaterally ups the ante, like they did with LCA in the 90s, and offers to build something better.

Anyway, the delay is overall a good thing for AMCA considering the engine design is delayed. Any engine design should be taken up well before the aircraft is ready to be designed. This delay gives time for GTRE to catch up. They need to find a development partner in time for the AMCA.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Kaveri Engine

DRDO
^^ Click on Form & Spec 1 link on this page.

Thanks. I didn't know about the 780mm requirement. No wonder the K-10 won't go on LCA.

The current EJ 200 shall not suffice in terms of thrust that is being looked at.

The 75KN to 110KN requirement is too large. It would mean an aircraft between F-16B60 and EF-2000, maybe more. The current EJ-200 should suffice as a Block 1 engine as is the case with PAKFA. When an AMCA Mk2 is made, a stage 2 K-10 can be used.

This 75/110KN must be a margin for development, not the thrust range for production engine. Many developers may have engine designs that give out different thrust with that 780mm diameter. So any of those designs may be chosen or I suppose the developer may choose what engine they will decide to bid with depending on their capability. The higher the thrust the more capable AMCA's final design will be. So I suppose GTRE may have their fingers crossed on what they get. I am just speculating here.

Meaning, the French and the English have more experience with 75-110KN class engines of 1 ton weight while the Americans and Russians seem to have focussed their current resources on a higher class of engines of 1.5 tons weight. So this margin allows the Europeans to compete with real engines while the Americans and Russians can compete with designs of the class we need. Would be great if Saturn makes a smaller version of the Item 30 for AMCA. Bigger deal for them, better technology for us and a faster design to production cycle than other competitors.

 

[ersakthivel]

K-10 won't go on LCA mk-2 , according to ADA,

If the K-10 won't go on AMCA then why is the GOI holding talks with snecma and talking about issuing global tenders for K-10 Joint development?

I am sure K-10 is not a tech demo engine without an aircraft in mind.

Then from where will the AMCA engine come?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

@ TrueSpirit

Maybe. I cannot find that out. I have been following his posts on Armour threads which appeared impressive & he appears very well-versed with the craft. He also appears to have some first-hand experience of Indian MBT's. Maybe, he is not into aviation as you have said.



So, in your opinion, is it good or bad ? Can LCA meet this clearance deadline ? If it does, it would great for expediting the programme, right ?

When he first came into the forum he said he was in the aeronautics stream and he was working in the nanotechnology field. Which didn't make sense. Then in his posts to Decklander he said he designs aircraft. Now in another post he said he is a mechanical engineer. I have never seen a bigger retard than him.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/introductions-greetings/44890-hi-i-am-e-r-sakthivel.html

Link above is my introduction thread.

I never said I am from aeronautics stream,

I never said I am from nano technology field,

I never said I design any aircraft to decklander,

Since the retard who posted such misinformation is a bunkum in all the fields mentioned above, it is no wonder that he thought of me as a great aeronautical expert, nanotechnology expert and fighter designer all rolled into one!!!!!!!!!

I never thought that a person can stoop to such low level ,to posting BS about me,

or

If he has the integrity level of the lowest common denominator in this society , he should quote my posts quoting the same.

From the outset in my introduction thread itself , I have mentioned what is my career, And he should not act like he has never read it.

Of course that retard is mightily displeased that most of bogus claims he made like

1. LCA 's AOA is stuck at 16 Deg ,

2. It's top speed stuck at mach 1.4

3. Wing loading is related to passenger aircraft,

4. And a couple of Mig-21s will take down a squadron of Tejas LCA

5.And grippen won't be able to use Meteor to it's full range.

6. And only "Heavy class fighters can fire long range missiles and light fighters like Teja won't be able to fire 120 km range BVRs",

7.And multi ejector racks will produce drag only in Tejas and not in grippen,

8. LCA cannot go supersonic at sea level,

9, A long range BVR cannot take mid course correction after getting target info from a surrogate craft other than the the fighter that launched it,

10. And the 50 km tracking radar range UPGRADED MIG-21 BISONS are much more effective modern fighter than the 120 km tracking radar range Tejas,



were busted by me point by point with authentic source quotes.

Infact the only reason I started posting in this forum is to counter such unfathomable hatred filled lies about LCA program

SO I understand some of the pent up senile anger built up. But putting words into my mouth because of the insult suffered is another shameless act in a row of retard level he normally conducts here.

Since I was no fighter designer as he falsely implicates , I made a few errors like mistaking calibrated airspeed as close air support speed and , SInce LCA was a replacement for MIG-21 , the initial ASR was may have 2 ton weapon load.

But I corrected them and I was the one who posted the first authentic link to Air marshal MSD Wollen's original ASR specs with authentic link in this forum,

Untill then he was simply kite flying like that original ASR might have been say this or that parameter and LCA has fell short by such and such parameter all total BS.

The original ASR of LCA mentioned a top speed of mach 1.5(LCA even before IOC dids mach 1.6 ), an STR of 17 deg(LCA has crossed this )

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

Maybe. I cannot find that out. I have been following his posts on Armour threads which appeared impressive & he appears very well-versed with the craft. He also appears to have some first-hand experience of Indian MBT's. Maybe, he is not into aviation as you have said.



So, in your opinion, is it good or bad ? Can LCA meet this clearance deadline ? If it does, it would great for expediting the programme, right ?

I still remember his stubborn self posting that IAF requirement for LCA was with 2 tons payload like the Mig-21. He didn't understand simple terms like CAS(Calibrated Air Speed) and confusing it to terms like Close Air Support. He doesn't know anything about aircraft, tanks and basically anything about the military.

His tank thread posts are nonsense. The others are wasting time on him. Some have already put him on the ignore list. The more of his posts you read, the less educated you get. He doesn't know anything. Period. I though he would have improved over time, but he hasn't. Recently he has only been repeating what I said earlier. The gyan I gave him nearly two years ago, he repeated on Decklander and that gave him a clean chit. When he added his own gyan to what he thought the LCA should be, it failed.

Also the original ASR never mentioned that LCA should carry 120 km range BVR , but LCA can do it now,Original never mentioned that it has so and so RCS and so ITR , But according to test pilot reports even within restricted flight envelope due to testing, it still handles sharper than Mirage-2000.

He had been insisting that because the engine was starved of air the AOA of LCA was stuck at 16 deg. Since I have studied project definition-prototype development discipline , I knew pretty well , that such basic mistakes would not happen and finally I was proved right , since LCA has now cleared 24 deg AOA and slated for 26 deg during FOC with a puny additional air intake.

He said the LCA is hobbled by unresolvable drag issue and it will never go supersonic at sealevel, and finally on flutter test, in the process of pulling out of a engine powerless dive from 4KM LCA crossed mach 1 and infact achieved the same sea level top speed as that of SU-30 MKI and MIG-29 in hot indian condition,

So after running out of issue he started abusing the Moderator Kunal Biswas who asked him to back his claims with proof,(since I have quoted authentic link in both the ADA Tejas-III and ADA Tejas -IV threads to debunk his bogus claims) . So he quit posting there in disgust.

Much worse for him LCA mk-2 is going to better all the above parameters by another 10 or 20 percent for sure.

And what is happening on the Arjun MBT thread is hilarious entertainment . Most of the fake tank experts who posted useless lies about Arjun are now totally silent after being throughly exposed with undeniable proof . The retard himself was one among them a while before and after seeing the way wind is blowing , he quietly hung up his boots on Arjun Mbt thread.

Thanks to the blessings of almighty above, I had the better sense to not to accept a single sentence of his so called ,"GYAN", he tried to drill into my head.He still considers himself that the stuff he post is "Gyan " speaks volumes about his intellectual honesty.

Since I know something basic on technical front I was saved from being another headless chicken here,


I don' really need the improvement he hints at, namely accepting stupid lies as truths without questioning it.

 

[SATISH]

Instead of wasting money in AMCA right now it must be spent wisely in the development of our own engine. That is the right way to go. I will give atleast 3 years of lull period for the designing of the AMCA. Anyways we will be getting the FGFA by 2020. So $5 billion pumped in and strict deadlines must be imposed and a engine capable of powering a fifth generation aircraft must be made.

 

[ersakthivel]

Instead of wasting money in AMCA right now it must be spent wisely in the development of our own engine. That is the right way to go. I will give atleast 3 years of lull period for the designing of the AMCA. Anyways we will be getting the FGFA by 2020. So $5 billion pumped in and strict deadlines must be imposed and a engine capable of powering a fifth generation aircraft must be made.

Then WHy are the chinese flying J-20 and J-31 with russian engines?

Shouldn't they also follow the line advocated by you and stopped the development of J-20 and J-31 still ,"they produce an engine that can power the J-20 by infusing 5 billion dollars and imposing strict deadlines? "


Logic demands that just like we did on LCA by having an american engine as a back up, we should develop AMCA based on K-10 and have either Eurojet or GE or French engine as an adequate back up , just like the chinese did and that is what is going to happen.

It is not a wise option to sit tight with no 5th gen airframe development activity while waiting for engine for another decade.
because the branches that deliver the 5th gen or 4th gen engine and the 5th gen airframe or separate and do their own work in their own field.

Or ADA should design AMCA based on a twin K-10(with lower thrust expectations closer to the K-9 , if higher thrust can not possibly achieved with in a decade) and IAF and HAL to be allowed to go after their own 5th gen engine cum fighter program as they wish like they do in US where they ask two separate entities to develop prototypes after giving the funding.

This will free ADA from the incremental demand escalation from IAF and IAF and HAL do not have to blame ADA for their induction delays , because based on the,"monumental design R&D " they shared with the SUKHOI design beruea on PAKFA develpment, they will have a 5th gen locally produced fighter indepenadat of ADA's interference.

IMHO we don't need a 5th gen engine to power any so called 5th gen fighter, chinese realized this and are going to fly their J-20s and J-31s with old 4th russian engines.because if they wait for locally produce 5th gen engine they will wait forever.Same is the case for India.

SO reason demands that we tailor the AMCA not according to fancy janes defence specs by IAF but at the level of country's engine tech capacity.

We can reduce the range or payload without compromising on STR , ITR and supercruise aspects. I am sure such an AMCA can comprise about 50 percent of our 5th gen fleet and will defend the home air space and give close air support to IA in border wars because it can be produced and inducted in high numbers due to low cost.

Why? Because we already have K-9 developed and air frame designing capacity thanks to LCA.
The remaining 50 percent can be PAKFA or the design to be developed by the IAF-HAL combine.This how nations leverage available tech for national security and also build viable aerospace industry with active private participation.

If IAF could dfend indian air space against china and pakistan with 400 odd very low tech MIG-21, 23, and JAGs , the 50-50 AMCA -any other imported or IAF-HAL 5h gen fighter fleet can do ten times better.

 

[rvjpheonix]

If the new max diameter is 780 mm the kaveri k9 or k10 just won't fit in. What will we use as an engine for amca? The ej 200 is longer than both kaveri and m 88. So will GTRE make a new engine? Or will we be definitely going for a foreign option? Can we fit the ej 200 on the amca because it is said to be around the size of a rafale to f 16 and also needs space for internal weapons.

 

[Twinblade]

Re: Kaveri Engine

Thanks. I didn't know about the 780mm requirement. No wonder the K-10 won't go on LCA.

The 75KN to 110KN requirement is too large. It would mean an aircraft between F-16B60 and EF-2000, maybe more.

In terms of dimensions and MTOW, it should be somewhere between MiG-29K/MiG-35 and super hornet, considering which 75/110KN engines don't seem excessive.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

EJ 200 design has a growth potential of as much as 30%, however it requires some serious funding to achieve those levels. The proposed 75/110 KN Kaveri has to have those thrust levels from the outset with a minimum of 5% growth potential. A very very ambitious call considering that it has to finish static testing within 5 years of selection of development partner ~ 2018. It has to be an entirely new design as the inlet dia has been reduced from 910 mm to a maximum of 780mm, which means if the airframe is being designed keeping 75/110 KN kaveri in mind, using M-88 (900 mm) and GE-414 (890mm) for preliminary testing till the engine is ready is out of the question as they would be significantly wider. The only engine they can use off the shelf would be EJ 200 with its 737mm dia.

Also the tender mentions that it is for BLISK FAN , and the inlet dia mentioned is that of BLISK FAN. We need to clarify whether the outer lip of the engine which sucks the air in will have a slightly much bigger dia than at the stage of Bliskfan.

IMHO , it the outer air inlet and casing surrounding the Blisk fan may measure more than the dia of Bliskfan itself.

SO it is still possible that this tender is for a new BLISKFAN of K-10,However we need clarification on this aspect.

it is not mentioned as max 780 mm. it is mentioned as 780 mm approximate in the constraint column and ,"as needed by the designer" in value column..

SO some clarity is needed on whether the 780 mm is minimum or maximum .

The 910 mm is the engine dia of K-9. And this 780 mm is a constraint for BLISKFAN max inlet dia(we don't know whether it is max or min) with exact value to be specified by the DRDO later.

If we know what is the max inlet dia of K-9 compressor fan it will help of course.

Regards.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Kaveri Engine

In terms of dimensions and MTOW, it should be somewhere between MiG-29K/MiG-35 and super hornet, considering which 75/110KN engines don't seem excessive.

n July 2007, GTRE divided Kaveri program into two separate programs. They are K9+ Program and K 10 Program. K9+ Program is a program to prove concept of complete design and gain hand-on experience of aircraft engine integration and flight trials to cover a defined truncated flight envelope prior to the launch of production version of K10 Standard engine. While K 10 Program is a Joint Venture (JV) partnership with a foreign engine manufacturer. K 10 program engine will be final production standard Kaveri engine and shall have less weight and more reheat thrust along with certain other changes to meet the original design intent

So further development of K-9+ is not just an academic exercise .It will cut th flight trial and development time of K-10.As it will cover a defined truncated flight envelope prior to the launch of production version K-10.

And according to all available opensource information it is a version of the GTX kaveri that is going to power the AMCA.

And even the development of K-9+ is expected to shorten the development and flight testing time of K-10 according to open source info.

 

[p2prada]

If the new max diameter is 780 mm the kaveri k9 or k10 just won't fit in. What will we use as an engine for amca? The ej 200 is longer than both kaveri and m 88. So will GTRE make a new engine? Or will we be definitely going for a foreign option? Can we fit the ej 200 on the amca because it is said to be around the size of a rafale to f 16 and also needs space for internal weapons.

We aren't talking about LCA here. The K-10 has been officially disqualified for LCA. K-9 is too underpowered, so no chance for it to be used on LCA. LCA has a good engine in the F-414 anyway.

GTRE will make a new engine called K-10. However for this to happen we will need a foreign development partner who can develop the core and transfer the technology required to manufacture the engine inhouse.

The 780mm diameter is for K-10.

AMCA is still in the design stage, so it can be designed to handle any engine they want it to. EJ-200 apparently fits the bill because of the size and thrust requirements.

Instead of wasting money in AMCA right now it must be spent wisely in the development of our own engine. That is the right way to go. I will give atleast 3 years of lull period for the designing of the AMCA. Anyways we will be getting the FGFA by 2020. So $5 billion pumped in and strict deadlines must be imposed and a engine capable of powering a fifth generation aircraft must be made.

One of the reasons why the program has been put on hold. The delays will give other R&D units to catch up with AMCA's prototype design stage. No point getting a bird flying in the air without an engine or radar. This will give GTRE time to develop the radar too.

In terms of dimensions and MTOW, it should be somewhere between MiG-29K/MiG-35 and super hornet, considering which 75/110KN engines don't seem excessive.

According to ADA it is a F-16B60/Rafale sized fighter. 16 to 18 tonnes loaded weight. 4 tonnes fuel load. 2 tonnes internal bay load. 20 odd tonnes MTOW. I suppose empty weight would be 9-11 tonnes. I would say the fuel load may be a bit small.

SP's Aviation - SP’s Exculsive

With aerodynamic design optimisation near complete, the AMCA's broad specifications are final. The aicraft will have a weight of 16-18 tonnes [16-18 tons with 2-tons of internal weapons and four-tonnes of internal fuel with a combat ceiling of 15-km, max speed of 1.8-Mach at 11-km.

SH is way too heavy at 14.5 tonnes empty. AMCA won't be a F-35/SH sized fighter. We know that FGFA will be a 34 tonne MTOW aircraft. So there won't be any point in inducting another 30 tonne aircraft.

75-80KN engines will effectively put AMCA in the Rafale T/W category while 110KN will put it in the FGFA league. So I suppose ADA is looking at something in between with a 90KN engine or what is planned for Rafale F4 maybe. The 110KN requirement may take care of weight gains in the program, if it decided to exceed EF-2000 empty weight specs. Something that wasn't catered for in the LCA program. We will simply have to wait for GTRE to choose its foreign partner and negotiate a deal. That's at least 2 years away from happening anyway.