AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[drkrn]

AMCA is alive and kicking. The project is in Avionics development phase (RADAR -> no idea. Only talking about 40 antenna elements and communication system requirement). RCS calculation has been started.

welcome to dfi

 

[rohit b3]

AMCA is alive and kicking. The project is in Avionics development phase (RADAR -> no idea. Only talking about 40 antenna elements and communication system requirement). RCS calculation has been started.

Can I know your source?

And has the design been frozen?

 

[dvdiyen]

Can I know your source?

And has the design been frozen?

The avionics design has been frozen to a certain extent and antenna simulation with the platform has started. Antenna prototype development has been given a go ahead. About the structural changes it remains the same as of now.

 

[Decklander]

The avionics design has been frozen to a certain extent and antenna simulation with the platform has started. Antenna prototype development has been given a go ahead. About the structural changes it remains the same as of now.

Can you pls elaborate and name even one DRDO agency which can do RCS calculations? I have tried them all and none has this facility. They have anechoic chambers only for missiles and small UAVs. They are themselves looking for a software to do RCS calculations. Only IISc has a software licensed from FEKO. They too are trying to develop one of their own with limited success.
HCL has one anechoic chamber in Chennai and most DRDO work is done there. RCI, Imarat and NAL claim to have this facility but they have no expertise in RCS measurement of an aircraft. I can't share the details here but I have it all in writing from them.

 

[p2prada]

@Decklander

They are building all this now. By the time they start working on it and gain experience it will take years.

RCS measurement is still for small models, large scale work is yet to begin.
RCS measurement should be done on 1:1 scale models or, even better, the actual aircraft.

I think ISRO has the most hands on capability in RCS measurements, but it is not military oriented.
DRDO is useless in comparison. They don't have the kind of funds or the manpower to invest in a RCS facility. IAF won't fund all this for them either.

But all of this matches the timeline, more or less, if AMCA is to fly in 2020. HAL is building new facilities for FGFA too.

Anyway, I have a list somewhere of new RCS facilities coming up across the country, I will mail it to you once I find it. Surprisingly it is all being handled by a private firm based in India.

 

[dvdiyen]

Can you pls elaborate and name even one DRDO agency which can do RCS calculations? I have tried them all and none has this facility. They have anechoic chambers only for missiles and small UAVs. They are themselves looking for a software to do RCS calculations. Only IISc has a software licensed from FEKO. They too are trying to develop one of their own with limited success.
HCL has one anechoic chamber in Chennai and most DRDO work is done there. RCI, Imarat and NAL claim to have this facility but they have no expertise in RCS measurement of an aircraft. I can't share the details here but I have it all in writing from them.

I totally agree with the anechoic chamber part. I think there is one in Bangalore (NAL) and one near the tank factory in AVADI.
I can't name the lab which is working on RCS. I am not entitled to.
There was a meeting held by Dr. Gosh group a month back and a vendor (I am not entitled to name) was selected and a defence lab was entrusted to carry out the RCS calculation. As far as RCS for the physical airframe itself I have no idea. I was talking about RCS using solvers.

IISC too are trying to build there own software for RCS.

 

[dvdiyen]

@Decklander

They are building all this now. By the time they start working on it and gain experience it will take years.

RCS measurement is still for small models, large scale work is yet to begin.
RCS measurement should be done on 1:1 scale models or, even better, the actual aircraft.

I think ISRO has the most hands on capability in RCS measurements, but it is not military oriented.
DRDO is useless in comparison. They don't have the kind of funds or the manpower to invest in a RCS facility. IAF won't fund all this for them either.

But all of this matches the timeline, more or less, if AMCA is to fly in 2020. HAL is building new facilities for FGFA too.

Anyway, I have a list somewhere of new RCS facilities coming up across the country, I will mail it to you once I find it. Surprisingly it is all being handled by a private firm based in India.

Perfect!!
8~10 years is the time line for AMCA and AURA.

 

[Decklander]

@Decklander

They are building all this now. By the time they start working on it and gain experience it will take years.

RCS measurement is still for small models, large scale work is yet to begin.
RCS measurement should be done on 1:1 scale models or, even better, the actual aircraft.

I think ISRO has the most hands on capability in RCS measurements, but it is not military oriented.
DRDO is useless in comparison. They don't have the kind of funds or the manpower to invest in a RCS facility. IAF won't fund all this for them either.

But all of this matches the timeline, more or less, if AMCA is to fly in 2020. HAL is building new facilities for FGFA too.

Anyway, I have a list somewhere of new RCS facilities coming up across the country, I will mail it to you once I find it. Surprisingly it is all being handled by a private firm based in India.

Who will know it better than I do? For last four months I have tried to get the RCS measured for my Model and went to everyone in India. Finally I got it done but from external agency software.

 

[Decklander]

Perfect!!
8~10 years is the time line for AMCA and AURA.

Now tell me why are we making a fool of whole of India by stating that RCS of LCA is lowest of all fighters in IAF? When you can't calculate and have no such facility, than where did you do it and what is the basis of those claims? use of composites does not make an ac LO.

 

[sayareakd]

I totally agree with the anechoic chamber part. I think there is one in Bangalore (NAL) and one near the tank factory in AVADI.
I can't name the lab which is working on RCS. I am not entitled to.
There was a meeting held by Dr. Gosh group a month back and a vendor (I am not entitled to name) was selected and a defence lab was entrusted to carry out the RCS calculation. As far as RCS for the physical airframe itself I have no idea. I was talking about RCS using solvers.

IISC too are trying to build there own software for RCS.

Hi and welcome to DFI.
in future dont give name of groups, etc, just discuss in general way.
thanks.

 

[sayareakd]

Now tell me why are we making a fool of whole of India by stating that RCS of LCA is lowest of all fighters in IAF? When you can't calculate and have no such facility, than where did you do it and what is the basis of those claims? use of composites does not make an ac LO.

sir you have point, but they can get it down from abroad or ISRO facility.

 

[Decklander]

sir you have point, but they can get it down from abroad or ISRO facility.

Even ISRO does not have this facility. There is none in India. This software is controlled by the govts of the nation as a national secret and subject to govt sanction. What I got done was from a freelancer org and even their RCS measurement is indicative but not true.
Only Americans & British have it and that is subjected to very very strong controls.
I have been quietly reading posts here from members who have claimed various RCS for LCA. Can you recall my last post about LCA thread? What they do not know is that LCA defies the very basics of stealth shaping by having diff angles for its wing itself due to compound delta design. It has a huge tailplane and its nose itself is flat before the intakes with nothing to suppress the bottom fuselage and even nothing to suppress the external attachments. Mark my words, LCA has higher RCS than MIG-29 in intercept profile with AAMs.
I have challanged the NAL & HAL and they went quite on the subject and asked me to go to GOI for security clearance before they can communicate with me further. I sent them my highest security clearance documents and they fell silent.
LCA has allowed two generations to earn their pension and now the third generation also has more than 50% people who are children of these retired pensioners. You do not know how bad it is in DRDO & HAL. EARN PENSION AND ---- INDIA IS THE MOTTO OF HAL.

 

[dvdiyen]

Who will know it better than I do? For last four months I have tried to get the RCS measured for my Model and went to everyone in India. Finally I got it done but from external agency software.

The rcs of lca was calculate using fotran code written specifically for lca. The rcs code developed uses a ray bouncing technique . The fotran code was developed in1996. What more info do you need. No defense organization will part with rcs code developed. Do you know even the software vendors used to deny rcs functionality way back in 1999. It was xfdtd who brought rcs calculation software first to India.

 

[sayareakd]

The rcs of lca was calculate using fotran code written specifically for lca. The rcs code developed uses a ray bouncing technique . The fotran code was developed in1996. What more info do you need. No defense organization will part with rcs code developed. Do you know even the software vendors used to deny rcs functionality way back in 1999. It was xfdtd who brought rcs calculation software first to India.

this is what is official

 

[Decklander]

I can post tons of data to deny what has been posted here. The direct ray bouncing tech does not compute creeping waves which is one of the biggest RCS factors of LCA. It also does not take into consideration the geometric profile of an ac which are extremely important. The ray bouncing tech is like putting mirrors all along the ac and than lighting it up to see as to where all the reflections go. This is most rudimentary and flop system of calculating RCS. The wave propagation of RF transmissions and their ability to bend and transform based on frequency can't be calculated by this method.
Lastly, pls do not try to teach me anything. I am an idiot who just busted few crores of his money in chasing a stupid dream with no knowledge of aerodynamics or science of fluids and RF transmissions. I hope this will satisfy you. I read posts here and laugh my guts out probably just the way you guys do after reading my posts.

 

[angeldude13]

I can post tons of data to deny what has been posted here. The direct ray bouncing tech does not compute creeping waves which is one of the biggest RCS factors of LCA. It also does not take into consideration the geometric profile of an ac which are extremely important. The ray bouncing tech is like putting mirrors all along the ac and than lighting it up to see as to where all the reflections go. This is most rudimentary and flop system of calculating RCS. The wave propagation of RF transmissions and their ability to bend and transform based on frequency can't be calculated by this method.
Lastly, pls do not try to teach me anything. I am an idiot who just busted few crores of his money in chasing a stupid dream with no knowledge of aerodynamics or science of fluids and RF transmissions. I hope this will satisfy you. I read posts here and laugh my guts out probably just the way you guys do after reading my posts.

sir i've seen that all these big aviation players like boeing,lockheed martin and eurofighter etc have a team of extremely experienced fighter pilots who help these scientists with the details of there combat experience and sometimes these pilots even design some parts of the plane.
i have never heard such things happening in hal

 

[Twinblade]

i have never heard such things happening in hal

In that case you'd have to read/hear/see more Just an example: ex USN and IN aviators being involved in naval Tejas project.

 

[sayareakd]

sir i've seen that all these big aviation players like boeing,lockheed martin and eurofighter etc have a team of extremely experienced fighter pilots who help these scientists with the details of there combat experience and sometimes these pilots even design some parts of the plane.
i have never heard such things happening in hal

HAL has made LCA pilot friendly because of the inputs by test pilots.

 

[ersakthivel]

I can post tons of data to deny what has been posted here. The direct ray bouncing tech does not compute creeping waves which is one of the biggest RCS factors of LCA. It also does not take into consideration the geometric profile of an ac which are extremely important. The ray bouncing tech is like putting mirrors all along the ac and than lighting it up to see as to where all the reflections go. This is most rudimentary and flop system of calculating RCS. The wave propagation of RF transmissions and their ability to bend and transform based on frequency can't be calculated by this method.
Lastly, pls do not try to teach me anything. I am an idiot who just busted few crores of his money in chasing a stupid dream with no knowledge of aerodynamics or science of fluids and RF transmissions. I hope this will satisfy you. I read posts here and laugh my guts out probably just the way you guys do after reading my posts.

Radar uses the principle of receiving radio waves bouncing back after hitting an object directly .
Waves that creep along the surface of the object have no ways of going back to the receiver and providing exact location of the fighter to enemy's fire control radar.

So there is nothing wrong in calculating RCS based on the principle of treating radio waves in the same way as that of light wave,

Since both have so many things in common .

Even if waves bend and transform there is no way they can go back to the receiver of the enemy fighter.

After this technique what plays the most important part is the top stealth coatings and high amounts of composites on airframe which play a part in RCS reduction.

If you have any source or material to prove creeping waves on LCA's surface can be collected and collated by enemy fire control radars , please post.

 

[dvdiyen]

I can post tons of data to deny what has been posted here. The direct ray bouncing tech does not compute creeping waves which is one of the biggest RCS factors of LCA. It also does not take into consideration the geometric profile of an ac which are extremely important. The ray bouncing tech is like putting mirrors all along the ac and than lighting it up to see as to where all the reflections go. This is most rudimentary and flop system of calculating RCS. The wave propagation of RF transmissions and their ability to bend and transform based on frequency can't be calculated by this method.
Lastly, pls do not try to teach me anything. I am an idiot who just busted few crores of his money in chasing a stupid dream with no knowledge of aerodynamics or science of fluids and RF transmissions. I hope this will satisfy you. I read posts here and laugh my guts out probably just the way you guys do after reading my posts.

I am not here to teach anything. You might be a stalwart in RCS.
I am just saying that RCS for LCA was calculated using ray bouncing technique for a 1:1 model of LCA considering diffraction effects and shadowing effects way back in 1996 and lot of water has flow through Ganges since then and I say that RCS for LCA must have been calculated using efficient codes (C codes too exist). I am just answering your previous post saying that you cannot find even a single person working in RCS and deny the fact that no defense organization has a solver to solve for RCS.