AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

ersakthivel

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Only DDM (Deshi Dork Media) is putting AMCA on hold with the help of some ghost,"unnamed Ministry of defence officials".

As far as V.K. Saarswath is concerned that three critical techs for it re being developed and AMCA is in DESIGN phase with no put on hold, Once full design configuration is complete in a year's time they will approach the Government for funding. SO there is no news report quoting any official with name on this,"put on hold pov".

Even the new DRDO chief Avinash chander has said that with the infra and experience gained in LCA ADA will finish AMCA in 12 years time. He did not say AMCA is put on hold.What is done is , he has put together inter deparmental Quick reaction Team with HAL-ADA-IAF personnel to quicken the pace of flight tests.
Also other than K-10 Kaveri no other engine has been identified as it's power source.

People are making out that all of AMCA design team is disbanded and put on this QRT. There is no source for such claims.
 

SATISH

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Then WHy are the chinese flying J-20 and J-31 with russian engines?

Shouldn't they also follow the line advocated by you and stopped the development of J-20 and J-31 still ,"they produce an engine that can power the J-20 by infusing 5 billion dollars and imposing strict deadlines? "


Logic demands that just like we did on LCA by having an american engine as a back up, we should develop AMCA based on K-10 and have either Eurojet or GE or French engine as an adequate back up , just like the chinese did and that is what is going to happen.

It is not a wise option to sit tight with no 5th gen airframe development activity while waiting for engine for another decade.
because the branches that deliver the 5th gen or 4th gen engine and the 5th gen airframe or separate and do their own work in their own field.

Or ADA should design AMCA based on a twin K-10(with lower thrust expectations closer to the K-9 , if higher thrust can not possibly achieved with in a decade) and IAF and HAL to be allowed to go after their own 5th gen engine cum fighter program as they wish like they do in US where they ask two separate entities to develop prototypes after giving the funding.

This will free ADA from the incremental demand escalation from IAF and IAF and HAL do not have to blame ADA for their induction delays , because based on the,"monumental design R&D " they shared with the SUKHOI design beruea on PAKFA develpment, they will have a 5th gen locally produced fighter indepenadat of ADA's interference.

IMHO we don't need a 5th gen engine to power any so called 5th gen fighter, chinese realized this and are going to fly their J-20s and J-31s with old 4th russian engines.because if they wait for locally produce 5th gen engine they will wait forever.Same is the case for India.

SO reason demands that we tailor the AMCA not according to fancy janes defence specs by IAF but at the level of country's engine tech capacity.

We can reduce the range or payload without compromising on STR , ITR and supercruise aspects. I am sure such an AMCA can comprise about 50 percent of our 5th gen fleet and will defend the home air space and give close air support to IA in border wars because it can be produced and inducted in high numbers due to low cost.

Why? Because we already have K-9 developed and air frame designing capacity thanks to LCA.
The remaining 50 percent can be PAKFA or the design to be developed by the IAF-HAL combine.This how nations leverage available tech for national security and also build viable aerospace industry with active private participation.

If IAF could dfend indian air space against china and pakistan with 400 odd very low tech MIG-21, 23, and JAGs , the 50-50 AMCA -any other imported or IAF-HAL 5h gen fighter fleet can do ten times better.
Well you want the Indian defence industry to be like the CHinese? I think the J 20 and J 31 are nothing more that tech demonstrators which spawned out from Industrial espionage. It is no where comparable to something that I would like to see in the IAF. Fancy Janes specs of IAF is what is required to fight a real war.
 

Twinblade

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According to ADA it is a F-16B60/Rafale sized fighter. 16 to 18 tonnes loaded weight. 4 tonnes fuel load. 2 tonnes internal bay load. 20 odd tonnes MTOW. I suppose empty weight would be 9-11 tonnes. I would say the fuel load may be a bit small.

SP's Aviation - SP�s Exculsive


SH is way too heavy at 14.5 tonnes empty. AMCA won't be a F-35/SH sized fighter. We know that FGFA will be a 34 tonne MTOW aircraft. So there won't be any point in inducting another 30 tonne aircraft.

75-80KN engines will effectively put AMCA in the Rafale T/W category while 110KN will put it in the FGFA league. So I suppose ADA is looking at something in between with a 90KN engine or what is planned for Rafale F4 maybe. The 110KN requirement may take care of weight gains in the program, if it decided to exceed EF-2000 empty weight specs. Something that wasn't catered for in the LCA program. We will simply have to wait for GTRE to choose its foreign partner and negotiate a deal. That's at least 2 years away from happening anyway.
According to the latest reports, the MTOW would be ~ 27 tons. The superhornet reference was an obvious mistake and meant for aspect ratio not weight and size (*cough* saturday night alcohol *cough*). It is going to be a very long-ish fighter for its width, very much in MiG-29 category as far as length, weight and thrust are concerned.
 

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Re: Kaveri Engine

Yes, putting the AMCA on hold is a good thing.

Anyway LCA cannot realistically meet the deadline, I mean FOC. It is too much in too little time. However I don't know how much resources DRDO has added on to the program after the new deadlines have been set. It is a political move anyway. Anthony wants credit before the country goes to the polls. I just hope IAF requirements are not shortchanged again, like it is happening with IOC-2.

But yeah, if the deadline is met AMCA will start early. The reason why Decklander and myself are against AMCA as it is is because IAF will later change the requirements again since the threat perception will most probably change again by 2030. Meaning we will have just another 5th gen aircraft in 2030 when we have a similar aircraft in 2022. Its importance will reduce by then. IAF will induct piecemeal numbers and ask for the next best thing. It is better if ADA unilaterally ups the ante, like they did with LCA in the 90s, and offers to build something better.

Anyway, the delay is overall a good thing for AMCA considering the engine design is delayed. Any engine design should be taken up well before the aircraft is ready to be designed. This delay gives time for GTRE to catch up. They need to find a development partner in time for the AMCA.
Got it. This makes complete sense...
 

TrueSpirit

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Re: Kaveri Engine

Also the original ASR never mentioned that LCA should carry 120 km range BVR , but LCA can do it now,Original never mentioned that it has so and so RCS and so ITR , But according to test pilot reports even within restricted flight envelope due to testing, it still handles sharper than Mirage-2000.

He had been insisting that because the engine was starved of air the AOA of LCA was stuck at 16 deg. Since I have studied project definition-prototype development discipline , I knew pretty well , that such basic mistakes would not happen and finally I was proved right , since LCA has now cleared 24 deg AOA and slated for 26 deg during FOC with a puny additional air intake.

He said the LCA is hobbled by unresolvable drag issue and it will never go supersonic at sealevel, and finally on flutter test, in the process of pulling out of a engine powerless dive from 4KM LCA crossed mach 1 and infact achieved the same sea level top speed as that of SU-30 MKI and MIG-29 in hot indian condition,

So after running out of issue he started abusing the Moderator Kunal Biswas who asked him to back his claims with proof,(since I have quoted authentic link in both the ADA Tejas-III and ADA Tejas -IV threads to debunk his bogus claims) . So he quit posting there in disgust.

Much worse for him LCA mk-2 is going to better all the above parameters by another 10 or 20 percent for sure.

And what is happening on the Arjun MBT thread is hilarious entertainment . Most of the fake tank experts who posted useless lies about Arjun are now totally silent after being throughly exposed with undeniable proof . The retard himself was one among them a while before and after seeing the way wind is blowing , he quietly hung up his boots on Arjun Mbt thread.

Thanks to the blessings of almighty above, I had the better sense to not to accept a single sentence of his so called ,"GYAN", he tried to drill into my head.He still considers himself that the stuff he post is "Gyan " speaks volumes about his intellectual honesty.

Since I know something basic on technical front I was saved from being another headless chicken here,


I don' really need the improvement he hints at, namely accepting stupid lies as truths without questioning it.
Wow..you are just a Mech. Engineer with a different vocation altogether but still, your posts (at least to me) sounded as if from a HVF, Avadi insider or an ADA veteran !!

I am yet to see a civilian as passionate as you when it comes to Defence stuff...More Wows
 

p2prada

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According to the latest reports, the MTOW would be ~ 27 tons. The superhornet reference was an obvious mistake and meant for aspect ratio not weight and size (*cough* saturday night alcohol *cough*). It is going to be a very long-ish fighter for its width, very much in MiG-29 category as far as length, weight and thrust are concerned.
Interesting. Maybe they ended up changing it to a strike aircraft instead of air superiority.
 

ersakthivel

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Well you want the Indian defence industry to be like the CHinese? I think the J 20 and J 31 are nothing more that tech demonstrators which spawned out from Industrial espionage. It is no where comparable to something that I would like to see in the IAF. Fancy Janes specs of IAF is what is required to fight a real war.
Chinese defence industry churns out products according to their capacity and these products gawky as may they seem at first glance will mature and produce a huge mil-industry complex for china. China has already become world's 5th largest arm exporter with no significant edge in any armament tech over india.

meanwhile what is happening here is our local product development is hobbled down by repeatedly moving goal posts siting new developments , all the while buying dubious imported stuff not suited to local condition and bleeding massive forex reserves, making us world's largest arms importer an ugly truth for a nation that produces a nuclear weapon, nuclear propelled sub, super computers , hundred space launches,ballistic misslies.

While all the things mentioned above are produced and fielded giving india a great power status, a repeated lie that india cannot produce a simple tank and a fighter plane is being hammered into indian physique.

While countries like sweeden and swiss export grippens and pliatus all over the world,India which houses one of the largest scientific manpower pools in the wolrd is being made out to be a nation that can not produce a run of the mill tank or 4th gen fighter.

Why?

When we send moon probes why can't we produce a fighter to replace a simple mIg-21 in time?

Reason all the scientific achievements stated above have nothing to do with Service GSQR or ASR.All the above achievements are about converting the scientific capacity of the country into usable products.

But strangely all the while using antiquated T-72 and Mig-21, the torrid co-operation among services and DRDO is the reason for all the shame. If the serveices insist on janes defence specs they are making sure those items are never going to be produced in time because india does not have the tech of US .

But without insisting on these janes defence weekly specs ,chinese armed forces (because no body is going to sell china even the watered down version of those top stuff.) by their by inducting whatever produced by chinese defence industries , are creating a robust infra and design environ for more mature products in the comming decades.

For example for a fighter that was supposed to be limited to the size of MIG-21, Why did IAF put forth such a large Radar requirement on LCA? Initially the dassault consultants were appalled at the radome dia requirement for such a small sized fighter.

Don't they know it would skew the L/D ratio? Why did they change their missile specs for LCA as late as 2004 leading to FSED-2? Don't they know it will delay it further?

If at they wanted such a big radome dia and top of the line air to air missile launching specs, they should have the foresight to see that in 1980s itself , when the Mig-29 arrived in IAF and asked ADA to go for a separate twin engined fighter.

By giving a mirage-2000 + Mig-29 like performance spec for a Mig-21 sized fighter frame , and 2 decades into development asking for heavier weight higher launch stress inducing WVR misisles , the chance for the country to have inducted a truly light fighter to replace the MiG-21 was given the go by.

The same is happening in AMCA. ADA put out a modest 5th gen stealth strike fighter proposal in the name of MCA as a follow up of LCA, which is what logic demands in 2002 itself.

But not satisfied with PAKFA purchase for Russia , IAF couldn't finalize ASR till 2012 nd that too at much more stringent level than that of PAKFA, why?

By simply accepting the limitations of tech level in the country , had we gone ahead with simple MCA , We could have beat the chinese to the 5th gen demo firdt flight.Considering the LCA flew in just seven years from the date of fund release.

These far simpler products would have generated export order form 3rd world countries as well , providing us with much needed money and industrial design infra to develop further.

The right approach is to accept the LCA , AMCA, Arjun in blks version like in F-16 gather experience and demand improvements as it matures.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/07/air-force-at-war-with-hindustan.html

Recently IAf chief has written to MOD that HAL is even unfit to produce a basic trainer for IAF at an economical cost, blithly ignoring the fact that with depreciating rupee the pliatus's lifecycle and upgradation costs will make it at least thrice costlier than the local product!!!!!.,

Why is IAF arguing about financial savings here? That is the job of MOD and Finance ministry.

The IAF has proved itself to be unfit for the job, by first announcing that they will select MMRCA winner based on the total lifecycle cost , which includes spares, service, upgradation spread through out the period of it's service life, and then mysteriously retreating from this evaluation method saying that it is unable to do the calculation after seven years of negotiations.

Now Argentina, Srilanka, Egypt and many other third world countries are exploring the possibilities of buying JF-21. Sure chinese are going to export many MBTs also with many issues.

But India will forever buy these items abroad. Seriously do you think with continuing exorbitantly costly import of few in numbers foreign defence products which bleed precious little forex reserves hammering down the already drowned ruppee,

can India ever hope to hold it's borders against china which has massive forex reserves and locally produced armaments at lower prics and huge numbers, whose currency is appreciating against dollar?
 
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ersakthivel

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According to the latest reports, the MTOW would be ~ 27 tons. The superhornet reference was an obvious mistake and meant for aspect ratio not weight and size (*cough* saturday night alcohol *cough*). It is going to be a very long-ish fighter for its width, very much in MiG-29 category as far as length, weight and thrust are concerned.
Have you confirmed that K-10 has no chance of getting on board AMCA, because of the 780 mm value placed on the constraint column of the max inlet dia for BLISK FAN dia?

Are you sure that engine dia is not different form max inlet dia for BLISK FAN dia?

Regards,
 

Twinblade

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Re: Kaveri Engine

EJ 200 design has a growth potential of as much as 30%, however it requires some serious funding to achieve those levels. The proposed 75/110 KN Kaveri has to have those thrust levels from the outset with a minimum of 5% growth potential. A very very ambitious call considering that it has to finish static testing within 5 years of selection of development partner ~ 2018. It has to be an entirely new design as the inlet dia has been reduced from 910 mm to a maximum of 780mm, which means if the airframe is being designed keeping 75/110 KN kaveri in mind, using M-88 (900 mm) and GE-414 (890mm) for preliminary testing till the engine is ready is out of the question as they would be significantly wider. The only engine they can use off the shelf would be EJ 200 with its 737mm dia.
Thanks. I didn't know about the 780mm requirement. No wonder the K-10 won't go on LCA.
I would like to correct my post here.
Ej-200 Inlet size: 700mm
M-88 Inlet size: 700mm
Rd-33 Inlet size: 740mm
GE-f404 Inlet size: 700mm to 787mm depending on variants.
GE-f414 Inlet Size: 810 mm

Current Kaveri Inlet size: Data unavailable in public domain.

Those interested can use their photoshop skills to measure it, here are some images to set you in the right direction. (hint: the inlet diameter is larger than any of the above engines, way larger)



I choose to remain sceptical about the prospects of AMCA flying with current Kaveri.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: Kaveri Engine

I would like to correct my post here.
Ej-200 Inlet size: 700mm
M-88 Inlet size: 700mm
Rd-33 Inlet size: 740mm
GE-f404 Inlet size: 700mm to 787mm depending on variants.
GE-f414 Inlet Size: 810 mm

Current Kaveri Inlet size: Data unavailable in public domain.

Those interested can use their photoshop skills to measure it, here are some images to set you in the right direction. (hint: the inlet diameter is larger than any of the above engines, way larger)



I choose to remain sceptical about the prospects of AMCA flying with current Kaveri.
GE-404 with inlet size of 700 to 780 depending on the variant simply fitted in the slot meant for Kaveri engine in LCA without any fuselage or air inlet modification.

Also since both GE-404 and K-9 has the same form fit, ADA has recently said that when LCA mk-1s come for engine replacement in 10 years time , they will have the newly developed K-10 available for them.

SO that means the 780 mm constraint given for max inlet dia for the 75/100 kn range BLISK fan matches the inlet dia of GE-404 variants. So it is obvious that it should match the K-9 or K-10 also without any serious doubts.


In your post you have wrongly equated the engine dia of K-9 (910 mm) to the max inlet dia constraint of 780 mm for the BLISK fan in the GTRE tender to arrive at your opinion of mismatch.


So it is obvious that tendered BLISK fan will match the Kaveri air inlet size. There is no doubts about it.

And other than K-10 , ADA has not mentioned any engine for AMCA as far as I know. And the BLISK fan tech ADA seeks for K-10 is now readily available with global engine majors and only sticking point is going to be TOT as is the case with Snecma.

So there is no strong reason to doubt the K-10 going on AMCMA

Measurement can be done only on production drawing and photos like perspective drawing, not on schema with no scale and dimension. Doing so would be a wild goose chase.

And there is no need for it , since from the outset GTRE is looking for new BLISK fan tech to improve the Kaveri engine and the pratt & Whitney engine team that inspected the Kaveri engine has praised it as a world class engine as it already has a thrust to weight ratio of close to 7 in line with some 1990s tech global engines other than the latest 5th gen engines which have far higher TWR .

Any one who read the interview given by the Ex GTRE Director would have known this , since he explicitly metioned that other than the increased weight requirement of Tejas by 1 ton K- 9 has more or less achieved design goals, (with a minor shortage in wet thrust and 100 kg extra weight)

And to improve it further for future needs , we need advanced thermobaric coating tech and high heat withstanding alloys along with latest BLISK fan tech.

IMHO only for this BLISK fan tech GTRE has given a tender with matching inlet of k-9.


So I am sure it is the K-10 that is going to power AMCA.

With no regards,
 
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Dinesh_Kumar

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@ersakthivel.......good post!!

(why did IAf specify...........L/D ratio skewed)

> No they (IAF Directorate) not very good in setting weapon specs- source Indegenisation of Air Launched weapons -

by WinCo s. Bhanoji Rao

> IAF Chief reasonably supportive of HAL and Indian products, but he has many responsiblities and tough

job.Non-support of basic trainer probably due to bad experiences with HTT-32, during certain flights, fuel pump goes

kaput and starves engine of fuel, resulting in stalling....many crashes and rookie pilots died and fleet finally

grounded. HAL support was reportedly s*it at the time, and problem still not solved for Lyncoming Engine with tech

support by HAL. IF prob not solvd on HTT-32, what guarantee it won't recur on HTT-40. If they have solution, why not

solve on existing HTT-32 first?
NAK Browne simply supporting tried and tested platform over uncertain one, support of HAL important, but saving IAF

pilot's life and ensuring security of nation more important!

 
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ersakthivel

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@ersakthivel.......good post!!

(why did IAf specify...........L/D ratio skewed)

> No they (IAF Directorate) not very good in setting weapon specs- source Indegenisation of Air Launched weapons -

by WinCo s. Bhanoji Rao

> IAF Chief reasonably supportive of HAL and Indian products, but he has many responsiblities and tough

job.Non-support of basic trainer probably due to bad experiences with HTT-32, during certain flights, fuel pump goes

kaput and starves engine of fuel, resulting in stalling....many crashes and rookie pilots died and fleet finally

grounded. HAL support was reportedly s*it at the time, and problem still not solved for Lyncoming Engine with tech

support by HAL. IF prob not solvd on HTT-32, what guarantee it won't recur on HTT-40. If they have solution, why not

solve on existing HTT-32 first?
NAK Browne simply supporting tried and tested platform over uncertain one, support of HAL important, but saving IAF

pilot's life and ensuring security of nation more important!
But can't these faults be rectified ?

HAL makes ALH with some degree of success but why are they letting down IAF on basic trainers?

Sure ADA should have made fuel pumps for the LCA which has a good safety record, why can't the HAl approach them for the solution?

Why can't HAl ask ADA or NAL to look into it? Surely even ISRO can chip in they are making fuel pumps for GSLVs and PSLVs,

it won't be impossible for them to resolve with so much expertise here . Why they haven't done it ?
 
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Dinesh_Kumar

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Above good points......I hv no answer

i saw on BR forums, that lycoming engine prob also seen in US, and rectified there. Why not here, dont know...

HAL support not good, maybe?


But can't these faults be rectified ?
 
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ersakthivel

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Above good points......I hv no answer

i saw on BR forums, that lycoming engine prob also seen in US, and rectified there. Why not here, dont know...

HAL support not good, maybe?


But can't these faults be rectified ?
It needs some investigation, simply it is not that state of art that it cannot be locally rectified here. When it is rectified in US why can't it be done here?

HAL support for fuel pumps in Su-30, Jag and Mig-29 are good , then why can't it be good on HTT-30? It's hard to believe that this single factor was responsible for all this.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-al-least-12-benchmarks-trainer-aircraft.html

Some interesting stuff in the above link , why IAf chief is writing letters to stop HAL putting it's own 150 crore into development of HTT-40,You don't need to go far to know what are the reasons behind the sudden flurry of activity on HTT-40 front.
 
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Abhi9

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Corruptions is Rampant.
They say they have to protect the nation. They say security is at stake. The main reason is that neither IAF or IA is in complete support of Indian made weapons. Its wrong to say that all the Brass of IA and IAF is like that. But foriegn weapons involves bribes and to support the babu-brass-ministry joint effort to mooch as much money as it can on one statement. " i need weapons to secure the nation". no bribes in indian weapons and thats why they the most stringent ASQR for indian weapons
 

cloud

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^^^, It doesn't really matter, even if it was a GO, its pace would be too slow at this stage that you can say its on Hold. :p . I mean unless their is some sort of big change at top political view/ or strict restrictions, you wouldn't see it in next 2 decades. I mean our children(for those unmarried) may have the chance on working on those projects.
 

rohit b3

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^^^, It doesn't really matter, even if it was a GO, its pace would be too slow at this stage that you can say its on Hold. :p . I mean unless their is some sort of big change at top political view/ or strict restrictions, you wouldn't see it in next 2 decades. I mean our children(for those unmarried) may have the chance on working on those projects.

Honestly, i was expecting AMCA to have its first flight by 2022 and induction well before 2030, especially after working with the Tejas. A lot of technologies for AMCA is being developed for the Tejas mk2 itself.

But I guess, our Govt. is too smart. They rather spend 20 Bil$ on an imported 4.5th generation jet and 2.5Bil$ in upgrading old Mirage fleets, rather than funding HAL.
 

SajeevJino

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:fyeah:


AMCA comes with Combination of Rafale FGFA and the LCA ..Will called 5+ Gen Fighter
 

dvdiyen

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^^^, It doesn't really matter, even if it was a GO, its pace would be too slow at this stage that you can say its on Hold. :p . I mean unless their is some sort of big change at top political view/ or strict restrictions, you wouldn't see it in next 2 decades. I mean our children(for those unmarried) may have the chance on working on those projects.
AMCA is alive and kicking. The project is in Avionics development phase (RADAR -> no idea. Only talking about 40 antenna elements and communication system requirement). RCS calculation has been started.
 

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