AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[arnabmit]

The aircraft will be larger and more powerful than the Indo-Russian PMF/FGFA??????????

AMCA to be developed in 12-15 years

Published July 10, 2013 | By admin
SOURCE: SP's Special Correspondent

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

I take that as 30-50 years going by DRDO standards...

 

[A chauhan]

The aircraft will be larger and more powerful than the Indo-Russian PMF/FGFA??????????

Nope they are different class fighters.

 

[arnabmit]

Yeah I know that, the M in AMCA is Medium, FGFA is Heavy.

Indian defence journalism is going to the dogs!

Nope they are different class fighters.

 

[A chauhan]

Yeah I know that, the M in AMCA is Medium, FGFA is Heavy.

Indian defence journalism is going to the dogs!

Oh yes you are right I didn't notice that -

..The aircraft will be larger and more powerful than the Indo-Russian PMF/FGFA, and will be a priority stealth strike platform for operations behind enemy air defences...

 

[Snuggy321]

Pfffffffffff even the LM with its decades of exp. and zillion times more funding and better infrastructure and other factors needed more time to develop a 5th gen fighter.

 

[A chauhan]

That should be 20-25 years at maximum I guess.

 

[ersakthivel]

Pfffffffffff even the LM with its decades of exp. and zillion times more funding and better infrastructure and other factors needed more time to develop a 5th gen fighter.

Don't make useless comparison. Do you know the scope of F-35. it's marine version has all the capabilities of vertical landing and take off like Sea harrier.And it has to be stealth with a singe engine at the same time while sharing common parts across all three variants.

So people at LM have to do the job of circus acrobat to pull off everything at the same time. They managed whatever they could .

But AMCA is a simple straight forward normal take off and landing stealth fighter with none of the complexities of the F-35 program.

What is even better is it is being made by people who are no first timers like LCA, All the experience of the LCA control laws ,fcs , composite tech, avionics, air frame experience design and flight test experience will be available to AMCA , which is not the case with LCA.

And even on the engine front the K-9 has come half way across, which is not the case with LCA.

Also no one is going to place sanctions on AMCA program like they did on LCA after the nuclear test by India.

So you cannot judge everything by the same scale.

 

[p2prada]

The project will be on hold for at least another 2 years.

ASR was delivered to ADA sometime in early 2010. It's been more than three years and there will be a two year delay minimum because Anthony wants the LCA to achieve FOC before elections. So I am, hopefully, expecting changes in the ASR that matches up to the 5 year gap and the two year delay. Progress on FGFA may also bring positive changes to AMCA because the first FGFA prototype will be undergoing flight tests by then.

 

[ersakthivel]

Since only preliminary design configuration and wind tunnel model is the only activity going on at present it is quite easy to bluff that AMCA is on hold, which is being done as usual with no official confirmation.


The so called PUT ON HOLD on AMCA is done only across some spurious websites. No official confirmation available to that effect.

FGFA with it's exposed engine blades and radar friendly underbelly design will have the same clean config RCS of Tejas and RAFALE from open source reports available.

The FGFA has no relation to IAF's 5th gen stealth ASR given to AMCA. IAF knows it has to gulp down whatever that will be offered by the sukhoi .

Say it can not go to the russians and demand that if you don't reduce RCS to raptor level we will cancel the project like the way in which they altered the ASR of AMCA again and again.That's why IAF has simply cut down all the twin seat version orders citing unavailability of the twin seat version.

If all of IAF's demands on FGFA has been met then it would have simply converted the twin seat portion of the order into single seat version .This has not happened means that IAF has only limited expectations from the stealth compliance of FGFA.

So IAF understands very well that AMCA is going to be the first true 5th gen stealth that will meet all it's needs.

Different teams are working on AMCA and LCA for years now. And there are no more deep design changes involved in LCA mk-1 , And even LCA mk-2 will be ready in a year. So most of the green field design activity on them would have been finished by now,

What Antony wanted was much better co ordination between ADA and HAL for speedy induction of LCA. And Avinash Chander is setting his sights on this from the increased pace of flight testing.

Never in his interviews did Avinash chander the DRDO chief indicated that AMCA is on hold and all of ADA was working on LCA mk-1 induction. What he said was quick reaction team comprising HAL and ADA guys were formed to quicken the pace of flight testing.

If IAF keeps changing ASR every 5 years ADA can only design AMCA from LEGO building blocks. Calling for another ASR change is trying to scuttle the AMCA project once for all , like the Indian army dithered for three years for the specs of their 50 ton flying FMBT with four men crew and quietly abandoning it for Arjun future evolution.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...06-13/indian-home-grown-amca-alternative-fgfa

The Indian defense ministry's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) showed a large-scale model of the AMCA at Aero India 2013 in February, in Bengaluru. The aerodynamic shape has been considerably refined in comparison to an earlier model exhibited at Aero India 2011, and even more so when compared to a model for wind-tunnel testing shown at Aero India 2009, at which time it was "MCA" without being "Advanced." This provides evidence that AMCA is being developed in parallel with FGFA. DRDO's Aeronautical Development Establishment is leading the AMCA program.

Addressing the next-generation fighter issue, Air Marshall Norman Anil Kumar Browne, the Indian air force chief of staff, declined to compare the AMCA and FGFA, but insisted that "homegrown" projects shall be continued, especially in the area of mission equipment and fighter engines, since "nobody will give us these technologies."

As per the report the three aerodynamic refinements have already happened on AMCA from 2009 to 2013 as per the new ASR demands of IAF. If another is going to happen after 5 years, it only means it will be a simple academic tech demo project, not a realistic operational fighter project with any concrete induction date.

The aerodynamic layout of AMCA has been refined as per the new ASR from IAF. Now if IAF changes it's ASR again all of it is going to be wasted.

how many times the USAF changed the ASR for F-22 and F-35 to much higher level every 5 years citing the availability of new tech from this or that?

How many times the Russian air force changed the ASR of PAKFA?

How many times the chinese airforce changed the ASR for their J-20 and J-31?

Asking for New ASR for AMCA is in effect a ploy for finishing it off in favor of higher number of FGFA numbers.

There is no problem in asking for newer avionics development in parallel and a few bells and whistles that won't stand in the way of the program. But changing the whole ASR is in effect killing the project.

 

[Snuggy321]

Don't make useless comparison. Do you know the scope of F-35. it's marine version has all the capabilities of vertical landing and take off like Sea harrier.And it has to be stealth with a singe engine at the same time while sharing common parts across all three variants.

So people at LM have to do the job of circus acrobat to pull off everything at the same time. They managed whatever they could .

But AMCA is a simple straight forward normal take off and landing stealth fighter with none of the complexities of the F-35 program.

What is even better is it is being made by people who are no first timers like LCA, All the experience of the LCA control laws ,fcs , composite tech, avionics, air frame experience design and flight test experience will be available to AMCA , which is not the case with LCA.

And even on the engine front the K-9 has come half way across, which is not the case with LCA.

Also no one is going to place sanctions on AMCA program like they did on LCA after the nuclear test by India.

So you cannot judge everything by the same scale.

I was talking about the F22.... just look and see when they will even build a prototype

 

[ersakthivel]

I was talking about the F22.... just look and see when they will even build a prototype

DRDO chief Avinash chander says they will finish AMCA in 12 years time thanks to the infra developed for LCA tejas.

Whether you know more than him or not, certainly I don't know more than him to comment on that.

 

[ersakthivel]

A better approach is to develop it in tranches like the TYPHOON or the F-16 in blocks.

Going for all or nothing with ever changing goal post of newer and newer ASRs every three years is simply refusing to learn from the past, and killing the project with slow poison.

http://newindianexpress.com/cities/...oncern-over-FDI/2013/05/18/article1595071.ece

Advanced Aircraft

Saraswat said the project on advanced medium-combat aircraft is in the design stage.

"After this we will approach the government which will take an year's time. There are three major technologies being developed by the DRDO for the same.

"Once clearance is issued, we hope to start the production soon. No decision was taken by the DRDO or HAL or Defence Ministry to give up project," he said.

So this is the official status of AMCA according to DRDO chief. Only people who are posting that AMCA has been put on cold storage have to give some official source from Antony or any other official news agency. Simply quoting unnamed news reports won't do.

So A. K. Gosh who heads the AMCA design team has also been put into cold storage or hawked to LCA mk-1 QRT team?

First metal cut or composite weave is years away, So any one can write any thing on AMCA till then.

If people can provide any source their claim is correct. if not then ,,,,,,,,,

 

[sayareakd]

DRDO chief Avinash chander says they will finish AMCA in 12 years time thanks to the infra developed for LCA tejas.

Whether you know more than him or not, certainly I don't know more than him to comment on that.

with the knowledge they had from LCA they can at least make AMCA airframe fly with two engine in just few years time. Let say at max 4 years.

 

[ersakthivel]

with the knowledge they had from LCA they can at least make AMCA airframe fly with two engine in just few years time. Let say at max 4 years.

Of course once they finalize the design they can do it in four years. Even the LCA which was the first project had it's TD flying in just 7 years in 2001, from the date of finishing the design phase and start of funding for the first two TDs ,for the the first metal cut in 1993.

Even after the second FSED phase which led to redesigned wings on LCA according to newer IAF ASR demands , the LCA attained induction status in just 20 years from the funding after design freeze,

Time for AMCA will justifiably be half than that as DRDO chief claims. But if in between ASR changes happens then the project will drag on. the K-9 will attain flight certification with 80 kn in three years time. then prototype AMCA can use the K-9 for initial flight tests the till the K-10 is completed , like the J-20 using russian engines in prototypes.

Also a very matured team with decades of experience is available for AMCA unlike LCA.

Saint Antony , Mother Sonia, and Knight in shining armor Veerapa Moliy , Prince in waiting Rahul Gandhi team is giving dollar denominated import parity pricing for locally produced natural gas to benefit indian private firms and MNCs , and to increase the local production of natural gas

If they show their same attention by declaring dollar denominated incentive for AMCA design team if the design is finished on a certain date,

it will attract legions of IITians into the design effort and ADA can have the best of the talent pool to choose from, speeding up the project.

For some strange reason our politicians never think about the outgo on foreign exchange for defence imports

happening due to the brain drain by the lure of better life and remuneration abroad,

while they are hell bent on stopping the same on natural gas by rewarding indian and multi national private firms.

How long do they expect the 10 K smart phone wielding new techie crowd to settle for staid government pay and throw away a chance of better pay and better performance linked promotion avenues abroad ?

Why can't just the politicians offer the same to them in india in DRDO and save billions of dollar out go in future defence purchase?

May be they won't get any purchase out of doing such sensible thing on the defence local production front.

 

[Snuggy321]

DRDO chief Avinash chander says they will finish AMCA in 12 years time thanks to the infra developed for LCA tejas.

Whether you know more than him or not, certainly I don't know more than him to comment on that.

DRDO chiefs are know for their big mouths.... with less experience, less technological standards, less infrastructure, less funding etc etc etc than giants like LM.... how do they want to complete it withing 12 years?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is not a difficult task after PMF / FGFA & Rafale F3 are underproduction in India..

IMHO, Avionics matter most for 5gen fighters, What we already have >

1. Manufacturing technology for stealth fighters currently used on Tejas..
2. We have a good supplier of Engines..
3. AESA for Tejas MK2 is almost ready.. ( Information posted in Tejas MK2 thread )

What we will be doing is to make our own architecture based on our own experiences and from foreign partners through TOT..

===================

He is not a big mouth, DRDO people only make claims based on their support from GOV, later GOV pull the plugs to keep flow of Imports for personal gains through numerous scams, And Media goes after DRDO bashing but Majority too afraid to comment on corruptions..

DRDO chiefs are know for their big mouths.... with less experience, less technological standards, less infrastructure, less funding etc etc etc than giants like LM.... how do they want to complete it withing 12 years?

 

[Anony86]

Re: Kaveri Engine

The FAILED talks with Snecma means That even if you buy 20 Billion worth of
equipment ie as we are buying Rafale ; engine Technology is still NOT for Sale

Without a development partner Kaveri will NOT be ready for
another 20 years

Nobody will help us with engine technology

So if we want to make AMCA we have to use AL 41 ie FGFA engines

People all around the world thought the same way when we started the project of LCA, Arjun, Agni Ballistic missile,etc The point is one have to belief in their nations researchers & scientist and give them time to develop as these are most critical technologies. With more than 4 decades of experience France has produced engine which gives only 75KN of thrust.

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: Kaveri Engine

People all around the world thought the same way when we started the project of LCA, Arjun, Agni Ballistic missile,etc The point is one have to belief in their nations researchers & scientist and give them time to develop as these are most critical technologies. With more than 4 decades of experience France has produced engine which gives only 75KN of thrust.

So Mate Suppose in 2025 if AMCA is Held up JUST because of an Indigeneous engine what should we do then

And How will the PROTOTYPES of AMCA be made

Russia is Using SU 35 Engine for PAK FA prototypes
because AL 41 is Not ready yet

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: Kaveri Engine

@ Anony 86

In case of LCA the Prototypes also used GE 404

And finally Kaveri was delinked with LCA because LCA is Ready with IOC 2 And FOC
coming up but Kaveri is Invisible

Same thing will happen with AMCA

History will Repeat itself

K 10 will Not happen BUT AMCA will be ready to go with AL 41