AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[MonaLazy]

If it’s formed by 2024-5 then its right on time. HAL will make the first 2 TDs afaik, the SPV is mostly just for production activities so it’s quite de-risked for the private player

If the private entity makes the prototypes with all the hand holding from DRDO labs and gets paid for it on time- that's also derisked for them. When we get to the end of this decade and China fields it's 6th generation fighter we will be struggling with production line issues on our 5 gen.

Why not involve the industry from the get go? Right now the project pace atleast for AMCA isn't really break neck (with HAL+DRDO is anything ever?) so the partner can ease into production and refine the production processes over the next several years. But no. We'll wake up only when the threat becomes exceptionally dangerous (for now just deriding the J-20 is working out well for us), cr@p our pants and go for emergency purchase of S-600. What if in 10 years stealth is no longer as important, but sensors, EW, precision very very long range missiles etc become key elements of air dominance?

America’s Sixth Generation Fighter Will Emphasise Electronic Warfare Prowess Over Stealth or Speed - Reports

Speculation regarding the capabilities of America’s upcoming sixth generation fighter jet have been widespread for over a decade, and have grown considerably in light

militarywatchmagazine.com

 

[abingdonboy]

If the private entity makes the prototypes with all the hand holding from DRDO labs and gets paid for it on time- that's also derisked for them. When we get to the end of this decade and China fields it's 6th generation fighter we will be struggling with production line issues on our 5 gen.

Why not involve the industry from the get go? Right now the project pace atleast for AMCA isn't really break neck (with HAL+DRDO is anything ever?) so the partner can ease into production and refine the production processes over the next several years. But no. We'll wake up only when the threat becomes exceptionally dangerous (for now just deriding the J-20 is working out well for us), cr@p our pants and go for emergency purchase of S-600. What if in 10 years stealth is no longer as important, but sensors, EW, precision very very long range missiles etc become key elements of air dominance?

America’s Sixth Generation Fighter Will Emphasise Electronic Warfare Prowess Over Stealth or Speed - Reports

Speculation regarding the capabilities of America’s upcoming sixth generation fighter jet have been widespread for over a decade, and have grown considerably in light

militarywatchmagazine.com

Stop the hyperbole, China is definitely doing great things for itself but it has a long way to go.

there’s no private player in India with the kind of production facilities HAL has as of now- not even close. So it makes sense for the first few hand built prototypes/TDs to come directly from HAL and then once all the systems are validated for limited and series production to go to a private player with HAL hand holding(SPV), by then they are basically contract manufacturers. The DRDO itself isn’t even a production agency so like it or not but HAL has to be involved to a large degree to actually to produce these machines unless you want to spend the next 15 years for TATA or Mahindra to figure out the basics

 

[THESIS THORON]

acc to yesterday's savrav jha's ddr episode, the engine project will be completed in 7-8 years

 

[MonaLazy]

Stop the hyperbole, China is definitely doing great things for itself but it has a long way to go.

Continuing to bury your head in the sand is a choice- albeit not a very intelligent one- but i can respect that.

there’s no private player in India with the kind of production facilities HAL has as of now- not even close. So it makes sense for the first few hand built prototypes/TDs to come directly from HAL and then once all the systems are validated for limited and series production to go to a private player with HAL hand holding(SPV), by then they are basically contract manufacturers. The DRDO itself isn’t even a production agency so like it or not but HAL has to be involved to a large degree to actually to produce these machines unless you want to spend the next 15 years for TATA or Mahindra to figure out the basics

???

The whole idea of involving a private entity is to speed things up. If we are going to use HAL now for prototypes knowing their work culture then let's bin this idea of SPV also. It's hypocrisy. Atleast when the gormint gets to work, it's good for the chai-biscuit economy. OTOH if we want to do Aviation 2.0 after the first wave of aero dev in the country thanks to grand papa LCA then we have to-

a. Not distrust them or doubt their capability. It's was ok when LCA was undertaken but has since gone out of fashion. We are no longer an intrepid wannabe on the aviation scene.

b. If they can't be nudged, pushed, threatened to deliver now how will they automagically deliver in 8 years from now? That when they were completely missing from prototype stage?

c. Money does magical things. Private parties have the deep pockets to hire experts from anywhere in the globe without worrying about quotas. Let's trust them to deliver.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Continuing to bury your head in the sand is a choice- albeit not a very intelligent one- but i can respect that.



???

The whole idea of involving a private entity is to speed things up. If we are going to use HAL now for prototypes knowing their work culture then let's bin this idea of SPV also. It's hypocrisy. Atleast when the gormint gets to work, it's good for the chai-biscuit economy. OTOH if we want to do Aviation 2.0 after the first wave of aero dev in the country thanks to grand papa LCA then we have to-

a. Not distrust them or doubt their capability. It's was ok when LCA was undertaken but has since gone out of fashion. We are no longer an intrepid wannabe on the aviation scene.

b. If they can't be nudged, pushed, threatened to deliver now how will they automagically deliver in 8 years from now? That when they were completely missing from prototype stage?

c. Money does magical things. Private parties have the deep pockets to hire experts from anywhere in the globe without worrying about quotas. Let's trust them to deliver.

Private parties have deep pockets and so far they have went abroad, took some developed products and assembled them here in India, repainted it and wrote 'Made in India'. A 5th Gen Fighter production is an all together new mega challenge. They would have to master it like how HAL mastered fighter production in Tejas. Atleast HAL has experience so they will have majority share in the venture. If an Indian private entity is doing everything, then good luck. We wont see AMCA production squadrons even in 2040

 

[anirban8]

Continuing to bury your head in the sand is a choice- albeit not a very intelligent one- but i can respect that.



???

The whole idea of involving a private entity is to speed things up. If we are going to use HAL now for prototypes knowing their work culture then let's bin this idea of SPV also. It's hypocrisy. Atleast when the gormint gets to work, it's good for the chai-biscuit economy. OTOH if we want to do Aviation 2.0 after the first wave of aero dev in the country thanks to grand papa LCA then we have to-

a. Not distrust them or doubt their capability. It's was ok when LCA was undertaken but has since gone out of fashion. We are no longer an intrepid wannabe on the aviation scene.

b. If they can't be nudged, pushed, threatened to deliver now how will they automagically deliver in 8 years from now? That when they were completely missing from prototype stage?

c. Money does magical things. Private parties have the deep pockets to hire experts from anywhere in the globe without worrying about quotas. Let's trust them to deliver.

Hmm... I wonder why TASL will take 10 years to deliver all the C-295's.

 

[MonaLazy]

Private parties have deep pockets and so far they have went abroad, took some developed products and assembled them here in India, repainted it and wrote 'Made in India'. A 5th Gen Fighter production is an all together new mega challenge. They would have to master it like how HAL mastered fighter production in Tejas. Atleast HAL has experience so they will have majority share in the venture. If an Indian private entity is doing everything, then good luck. We wont see AMCA production squadrons even in 2040

If one private party can't deliver look for someone better. Or run a competition like in the states to pick a winning contractor.

I believe for drones that's how the acquisition is being run- startups are leading the charge.

Hmm... I wonder why TASL will take 10 years to deliver all the C-295's.

A TASL may or may not have the right mindset for aviation- but I wonder why a Dassault, a LM or a Boeing or a Northrop is not a conglomerate making everything from salt to trucks. Probably because flying is very unforgiving and only for the uber passionate.

Now if we are saying from a country of a billion and half we cannot produce our own Marcel Dassault or Mikhail Gurevich then that is a systemic problem. We are not unlocking the creative energy of our people- but despite the constraints, there is no dearth of enthusiasm and people risking life and limb and just going for it.

Class VIII pass youth makes 'Munna helicopter', dies during trial run: Watch

An aviation enthusiast youth, who also happens to be a Class VIII dropout breathed his last during the test flight of a helicopter that he had made

kalingatv.com

 

[anirban8]

A TASL may or may not have the right mindset for aviation- but I wonder why a Dassault, a LM or a Boeing or a Northrop is not a conglomerate making everything from salt to trucks. Probably because flying is very unforgiving and only for the uber passionate.

Now if we are saying from a country of a billion and half we cannot produce our own Marcel Dassault or Mikhail Gurevich then that is a systemic problem. We are not unlocking the creative energy of our people- but despite the constraints, there is no dearth of enthusiasm and people risking life and limb and just going for it.

Class VIII pass youth makes 'Munna helicopter', dies during trial run: Watch

An aviation enthusiast youth, who also happens to be a Class VIII dropout breathed his last during the test flight of a helicopter that he had made

kalingatv.com

"TASL does not have the right mind for aviation"???
I think TASL has the perfect mindset for business and will emerge as your Dassault and LM. TASL will deliver only 5 aircraft a year not because it cannot deliver more, but because it should not deliver more. They got an order for 40 aircraft only and that is the correct pace for manufacturing.

Coming to the second part do you really believe that a company that solely makes aircraft would have delivered this order at a faster pace. If it will then no matter how passionate it's founders are the comapny will end up bankrupt.

 

[MonaLazy]

"TASL does not have the right mind for aviation"???
I think TASL has the perfect mindset for business and will emerge as your Dassault and LM. TASL will deliver only 5 aircraft a year not because it cannot deliver more, but because it should not deliver more. They got an order for 40 aircraft only and that is the correct pace for manufacturing.

We are both talking about different ends of the puzzle. Mass manufacturing and innovation are at two opposite ends of a new aircraft program- both vital but if you don't innovate you never get to manufacture. That is why traditional mass manufacturers have trouble getting into aviation.

Coming to the second part do you really believe that a company that solely makes aircraft would have delivered this order at a faster pace. If it will then no matter how passionate it's founders are the comapny will end up bankrupt.

Again, the pace does not bother me at this point. Delivering an aircraft to 5 gen specs does & it is my contention that someone like a Munna Helicopter ably supported by GoI with funds and infra is more likely to get it done- private enterprise and innovation, not some gov labs.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

A TASL may or may not have the right mindset for aviation- but I wonder why a Dassault, a LM or a Boeing or a Northrop is not a conglomerate making everything from salt to trucks. Probably because flying is very unforgiving and only for the uber passionate.

Now if we are saying from a country of a billion and half we cannot produce our own Marcel Dassault or Mikhail Gurevich then that is a systemic problem. We are not unlocking the creative energy of our people- but despite the constraints, there is no dearth of enthusiasm and people risking life and limb and just going for it.

Class VIII pass youth makes 'Munna helicopter', dies during trial run: Watch

An aviation enthusiast youth, who also happens to be a Class VIII dropout breathed his last during the test flight of a helicopter that he had made

kalingatv.com

Conglomerates can and do work, You only see the ones that are still alive. McDonnell Douglas went out of business and sold off, because it was aircrafts only and its aircrafts didnt sell. Northrop also sold off, now under lockheed. Tata, if it fails in aero, can go back to selling salt and shelve its aero branch. If opportunity comes again, it can re enter aero without much loss of knowledge gained during first run.

In places like japan/S.Korea, conglomerates make everything from submarines to TV remotes, and it works just fine.

 

[abingdonboy]

Continuing to bury your head in the sand is a choice- albeit not a very intelligent one- but i can respect that.



???

The whole idea of involving a private entity is to speed things up. If we are going to use HAL now for prototypes knowing their work culture then let's bin this idea of SPV also. It's hypocrisy. Atleast when the gormint gets to work, it's good for the chai-biscuit economy. OTOH if we want to do Aviation 2.0 after the first wave of aero dev in the country thanks to grand papa LCA then we have to-

a. Not distrust them or doubt their capability. It's was ok when LCA was undertaken but has since gone out of fashion. We are no longer an intrepid wannabe on the aviation scene.

b. If they can't be nudged, pushed, threatened to deliver now how will they automagically deliver in 8 years from now? That when they were completely missing from prototype stage?

c. Money does magical things. Private parties have the deep pockets to hire experts from anywhere in the globe without worrying about quotas. Let's trust them to deliver.

Is this a joke?

HAL has many areas to criticise them but this is just farcical thinking. Money doesn’t change the laws of physics. Just to form the requisite divisions will probably take a few years for the private company, I seriously doubt there are a few thousand aerospace engineers with this kind of experience sat around jobless just waiting for TATA/L&T to phone them up.

Look at the efforts of DRAL and their very modest scale up plans ( they were only going to produce their first fully finished product 6 years down the road- and they still haven’t managed that)

Prototype building is no joke and the ONLY entity with that kind of experience in India (in fact in all of South Asia) is HAL, it’s already going to be a steep learning curve for them and on top of that you want to add complexities of an entirely unprecedented SPV model for this business in India?

Tech demos/prototypes made by HAL working directly with ADA in the same way they worked on LCA

then once the actual design is proven and major systems validated production on a more standardised scale with the SPV is by far the most optimal solution. HAL is already doing production activities for the AMCA, no private player would be ready in time nor would they likely take the risk given that no official sanction has come and CDR for the entire design doesn’t exist.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

AAACHOOO! Will AMCA also sneeze to start? Any info on its APU?

 

[Lonewolf]

AAACHOOO! Will AMCA also sneeze to start? Any info on its APU?

View attachment 147608

Never saw so close up pic of iaf jets or either they throw the plume near exhaust , does tejas create similar fumes

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Never saw so close up pic of iaf jets or either they throw the plume near exhaust , does tejas create similar fumes

Tejas uses JFS/APU like other jets.

The fumes in F-22 seen above is actually steam i think released by SES (Stored Energy System) using compressed air, but the tiny flame is unexplained. So in F-22, SES+APU=APGS (Auxilliary Power Generation System) which is a stand-alone system which doesn't require GPU.
Now someone in intervew should ask DoD guys about AMCA's startup.

 

[THESIS THORON]

do migs 21 uses jet starter cartridges ?

like this

 

[SavageKing456]

LSP PRODUCTION WILL BE DONE BY HAL OR SPV ?

Spv

 

[SavageKing456]

acc to yesterday's savrav jha's ddr episode, the engine project will be completed in 7-8 years

Too optimistic
We're going for 120kn
Will take atleast a decade for safer side timeline
Rushing things won't be good

 

[Covfefe]

Too optimistic
We're going for 120kn
Will take atleast a decade for safer side timeline
Rushing things won't be good

Plus we're going to cough up a lot of money- development with French isn't going to come cheap not that we have an option otherwise

 

[THESIS THORON]

Plus we're going to cough up a lot of money- development with French isn't going to come cheap not that we have an option otherwise

Ig the same engine will go on fcas

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Lavrov is coming in 2 days in Delhi. May be we can get some TOT on Item-17 engine for AMCA, taking advantage of the current situation?