AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Vamsi]

SPV announcement by end of 2023....isn't it too late?

 

[Covfefe]

SPV announcement by end of 2023....isn't it too late?

Any update on engine partner? For AMCA, other than a foreign partner, which isn't the case, won't most of the technologies will need to be developed by DRDO/HAL itself? Which Indian private company will provide meaningful contribution to the development of AMCA as of now, production is a different thing

 

[Vamsi]

Any update on engine partner? For AMCA, other than a foreign partner, which isn't the case, won't most of the technologies will need to be developed by DRDO/HAL itself? Which Indian private company will provide meaningful contribution to the development of AMCA as of now, production is a different thing

nothing about engine

 

[Shuturmurg]

F-16-IN(block-70/72) was offered in MMRCA with GE F-110-GE-132 engine having around 80KN dry thrust & 145KN AB thrust. It's good we rejected F-16 but perhaps instead of GE414 we could have negotiated for GE132 engine.

GE-414 is more modern engine. Thrust/weight ratio of GE-414 is 9 and whereas that of GE F-110-GE-132 is 8.

Also, GE-414 weighs only 60% of GE F-110-GE-132.
GE-414 also has much lower bypass ratio (0.25 vs 0.68). Lower bypass ratio means smaller diameter, thus making the jet stealthier.

 

[Spitfire9]

Any update on engine partner? For AMCA, other than a foreign partner, which isn't the case, won't most of the technologies will need to be developed by DRDO/HAL itself? Which Indian private company will provide meaningful contribution to the development of AMCA as of now, production is a different thing

I thought that SAFRAN had been selected earlier this year to negotiate a deal to jointly develop a 110kN-125kN engine for use in AMCA Mk2.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

GE-414 is more modern engine. Thrust/weight ratio of GE-414 is 9 and whereas that of GE F-110-GE-132 is 8.

Also, GE-414 weighs only 60% of GE F-110-GE-132.
GE-414 also has much lower bypass ratio (0.25 vs 0.68). Lower bypass ratio means smaller diameter, thus making the jet stealthier.

That's ok, if F-16 can use it so can our MWF, AMCA, TEDBF. The T/W ratio of engine cannot be compared to T/W ratio of entire jet which matters more in agility & load economics. GE-132 engine thrust is 38% more.
And correct me if wrong - higher bypass ratio means lesser noise, lower IR signature, higher mileage/range.

 

[Covfefe]

I thought that SAFRAN had been selected earlier this year to negotiate a deal to jointly develop a 110kN-125kN engine for use in AMCA Mk2.

I don't recall any official stand on this. There was one JV announced with Safran for codeveloping next gen Helicopter engines- probably for IMRH and heavy attack hepter category. But for fighter jet, nothing official yet

 

[THESIS THORON]

nothing about engine

things are getting delayed

 

[Shuturmurg]

That's ok, if F-16 can use it so can our MWF, AMCA, TEDBF. The T/W ratio of engine cannot be compared to T/W ratio of entire jet which matters more in agility & load economics. GE-132 engine thrust is 38% more.
And correct me if wrong - higher bypass ratio means lesser noise, lower IR signature, higher mileage/range.

I am not an expert, but here is what I got from searching the net :


Because the priorities for military aircraft (engines) are different. While it is true that the high bypass turbofans have better fuel economy (in cruise) and are less noisy, the low bypass engines offer significant advantages when we take into account their intended use in combat aircraft, such as:

• The response of the low bypass turbofans to throttle adjustments is faster compared to the high bypass turbofans; the inertia is less and less air mass is involved (for increasing the velocity)- This is important during combat, when thrust requirements change rapidly.
• They have less frontal area, reducing the drag produced. For aircraft expected to fly at supersonic speeds, however briefly, this is important.
• Better thrust to weight ratio- 6:1 in Trent 1000 Vs 9:1 F119 (used in F-22 Raptor)- Even if the actual thrust produced by the low bypass turbofans is lesser, they produce more thrust per kg of engine, which means that the engine can be more compact in size.
• The low bypass turbofans are more efficient at higher speeds compared to the high bypass turbofans.
• The lesser size of the low-bypass turbofans mean that the aircraft can be made stealthier by 'burying' the engines in the fuselage, which is all but impossible in case of high bypass turbofans.
  

source : https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...itary-turbofan-engines-use-a-low-bypass-ratio

Might be the huge size of f-16 was not suited for mwf ? Are there any aerospace engineers here that can help understand this ?

 

[Spitfire9]

India y Francia están a punto de cerrar un acuerdo, para el desarrollo conjunto de un motor de 125Kn de empuje, para el avión de combate de quinta generación de la India, el AMCA.

Según The Indu, el acuerdo probablemente será rubricado en los próximos dos meses, según funcionarios del Ministerio de Defensa consultados. La colaboración se dará entre la Organización de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Defensa (DRDO) y el fabricante de motores francés Safran.

SAFRAN ayudará a desarrollar el motor para el AMCA, el futuro caza indio

India y Francia están a punto de cerrar un acuerdo, para el desarrollo conjunto de un motor de 125Kn de empuje, para el avión de combate de quinta generación

www.aviacionline.com

Note it looks like it was published 03/2022. Sorry, it is in Spanish but essentially it says

- India and France are on the verge of sealing an accord to co-develop a 125kN engine for AMCA

- According to The Indu (The Hindu?) the accord will probably be signed in the next 2 months

 

[Lonewolf]

SAFRAN ayudará a desarrollar el motor para el AMCA, el futuro caza indio

India y Francia están a punto de cerrar un acuerdo, para el desarrollo conjunto de un motor de 125Kn de empuje, para el avión de combate de quinta generación

www.aviacionline.com

Note it looks like it was published 03/2022. Sorry, it is in Spanish but essentially it says

- India and France are on the verge of sealing an accord to co-develop a 125kN engine for AMCA

- According to The Indu (The Hindu?) the accord will probably be signed in the next 2 months

Well we have to wait three month (one month extra for Indian bureaucrats to finish their lunch time)

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I am not an expert, but here is what I got from searching the net :


Because the priorities for military aircraft (engines) are different. While it is true that the high bypass turbofans have better fuel economy (in cruise) and are less noisy, the low bypass engines offer significant advantages when we take into account their intended use in combat aircraft, such as:

• The response of the low bypass turbofans to throttle adjustments is faster compared to the high bypass turbofans; the inertia is less and less air mass is involved (for increasing the velocity)- This is important during combat, when thrust requirements change rapidly.
• They have less frontal area, reducing the drag produced. For aircraft expected to fly at supersonic speeds, however briefly, this is important.
• Better thrust to weight ratio- 6:1 in Trent 1000 Vs 9:1 F119 (used in F-22 Raptor)- Even if the actual thrust produced by the low bypass turbofans is lesser, they produce more thrust per kg of engine, which means that the engine can be more compact in size.
• The low bypass turbofans are more efficient at higher speeds compared to the high bypass turbofans.
• The lesser size of the low-bypass turbofans mean that the aircraft can be made stealthier by 'burying' the engines in the fuselage, which is all but impossible in case of high bypass turbofans.

source : https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...itary-turbofan-engines-use-a-low-bypass-ratio

Might be the huge size of f-16 was not suited for mwf ? Are there any aerospace engineers here that can help understand this ?

That's 1 of the best explanations, thanks a lot.
But by higher bypass ratio i don't mean like that of civillian engines
And F-16 is not huge compared to MWF
You can call LCA as puppy jet

 

[Spitfire9]

Well we have to wait three month (one month extra for Indian bureaucrats to finish their lunch time)

I don't know how this works exactly but if India had talked to SAFRAN and RR about their outline proposals and had then decided to go ahead with SAFRAN, there may be an awful lot to clarify on allocation of responsibility in the co-development of the engine and similarly regarding production. I won't be surprised if it takes longer than the mooted 2 months.

What happens after agreement is reached - does the Indian JV negotiator turn up at the treasury the next day and walk out with a big cheque after a few minutes' wait? Seriously, how much bureaucratic delay is built into the engine project?

About sticking a new engine in a new airframe - this is generally avoided, isn't it? Could the engine be tested on AMCA Mk1 frames? I guess AMCA Mk1 will have several hundred/thousand hours of flight under its belt by the time the new engine is ready to test. Do, please, correct me if I have got that wrong.

 

[SavageKing456]

SPV announcement by end of 2023....isn't it too late?

It's okayish since spv is mainly for production of aircraft

 

[Spitfire9]

From earlier in the thread

Expecting announcement for Special-purpose Vehicle (SPV-private company), by 2023 year-end. The SPV will work with DRDO, HAL, ADA, and other agencies on AMCA. The initial development cost for AMCA would be nearly $850 million.

I don't know what an SPV-private company is. What is the proposed SPV setup? 51% private/49% GoI? 50%/50%? Not GoI direct or indirect majority shareholding pleeeease. Not much point in involving the private sector then crippling the company with a government majority shareholding IMO.

 

[THESIS THORON]

It's okayish since spv is mainly for production of aircraft

LSP PRODUCTION WILL BE DONE BY HAL OR SPV ?

 

[Covfefe]

From earlier in the thread

Expecting announcement for Special-purpose Vehicle (SPV-private company), by 2023 year-end. The SPV will work with DRDO, HAL, ADA, and other agencies on AMCA. The initial development cost for AMCA would be nearly $850 million.

I don't know what an SPV-private company is. What is the proposed SPV setup? 51% private/49% GoI? 50%/50%? Not GoI direct or indirect majority shareholding pleeeease. Not much point in involving the private sector then crippling the company with a government majority shareholding IMO.

Special Purpose Vehicle with a combination of GoI, PSUs and Private Sector Players. For Development Technology side- we may expect some DRDO labs to take the lead, electronics again PSUs- Bharat Electronics, prototype partner HAL, Tatas manufacturing Boeing parts already and another enterprises manufactures Sukhoi airframe components, L&T could take up the software development part(difficult to speculate at this point).
But GoI majority shareholding isn't a problem(I don't think any private player will invest half a billion dollar upfront given the state of our defence procurement), it keeping the management in its own hand is. There are instances where GoI is the majority shareholder but gives the management in private hands/ professional hands. (NPCI for example, 100% government owned but still makes world class payment systems in the Fintech space)

 

[Dark Sorrow]

LSP PRODUCTION WILL BE DONE BY HAL OR SPV ?

SPV.
Prototypes will be built by HAL.

 

[abingdonboy]

Any update on engine partner? For AMCA, other than a foreign partner, which isn't the case, won't most of the technologies will need to be developed by DRDO/HAL itself? Which Indian private company will provide meaningful contribution to the development of AMCA as of now, production is a different thing

The engine JV won’t be connected to the AMCA SPV, it will be a JV between HAL/DRDO and the foreign OEM

For the AMCA MK.1s GE 414s will be used anyway so the 110-125KN engine has little scope to effect the AMCA project as of now

The 110-125KN engine JV seems like it’ll be signed in the next 3-4 months

 

[abingdonboy]

SPV announcement by end of 2023....isn't it too late?

If it’s formed by 2024-5 then its right on time. HAL will make the first 2 TDs afaik and they will work with ADA to certify and validate the project, the SPV is mostly just for production activities so it’s quite de-risked for the private player