AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Ar.gaurav28]

Funny thing about the above statement was that I remember people comparing and guaranteeing how HAL Tejas is better than F-16.

what you are talking about is glass half empty but forgetting the glass is half full aswell!
for example:-
* Tejas has a low radar cross section compared to f16
* Low maintenance compared to f16
* The interception role for which it was built, its perfect!
* better performance at low speeds f16 hates it(bleeds energy fast)
* Indigenous thus no source code issue for any updates and further system integration!
& many more....

I don't get one aspect of many people's mentality on this forum, their is no problem/shame in getting outside help/assistance if you don't have in-house expertise. What matters is getting the project completed and commissioned. Over the period you will develop expertise.
Remember the saying Rome was not built in a day.

Because you are trying to stand out from the crowd regardless of facts and merits!
stand your grounds but you can’t ignore other aspects associated with it that doesn’t support your perception...

Yes there is no shame in getting outside help/assistance, in tejas we had alot of help maybe without which it couldn’t have been possible but difference with turkey is they aren’t absorbing technology as us!
their projects are more like Pakistan jf17 that they tout as their own with Chinese assistance!
this is what makes both of them dependent and weak! can pak go against China now ever??
think about it why did Chinese made their own platforms why not get it or co-develop with russia or any western countries! Why was they reverse engineering others tech?? Would China be what it is today if it would have followed your point of vision??
last but not the least...expertise isn’t achieved by the time, it is achieved by the will of need!! Best example ISRO!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

So here is my real question ,how would it be managed to talk with system and communicate with other pilot and how will be noise cancellation be done for surrounding noise in cockit ,will the cockpit be sound proof

I don't know the status of project but several noise reduction are implemented in aircraft canopy/cockpit design but main noise cancellation is done digitally.
From what I can grasp (I may be wrong) a band pass filter is designed for the pilot's speech and all sound are passed against this filter. To give command to mission computer you need to say specific phrases just like
Google or Siri.

 

[Lonewolf]

I don't know the status of project but several noise reduction are implemented in aircraft canopy/cockpit design but main noise cancellation is done digitally.
From what I can grasp (I may be wrong) a band pass filter is designed for the pilot's speech and all sound are passed against this filter. To give command to mission computer you need to say specific phrases just like
Google or Siri.

That's really funny .

 

[Dark Sorrow]

That's really funny .

What is?

 

[Lonewolf]

What is?

Using keyword like hey goggle or hi siri , meanwhile engaged in a dogfight

 

[Dark Sorrow]

what you are talking about is glass half empty but forgetting the glass is half full aswell!
for example:-
* Tejas has a low radar cross section compared to f16
* Low maintenance compared to f16
* The interception role for which it was built, its perfect!
* better performance at low speeds f16 hates it(bleeds energy fast)
* Indigenous thus no source code issue for any updates and further system integration!
& many more....

The question is not about if F-16 or Tejas is good for India but about technical capabilities of both aircraft.
When its comes to Indian procurement I still prefer Tejas over other aircraft including MMRCA.
People claiming Tejas better than F-16 even before it (Tejas) was inducted. Just look at F-16 Block 70/72 and the pace on which it is improving. Their are some conflicting reports that PAF is trying to acquire F-16 Block 70/72 .

Because you are trying to stand out from the crowd regardless of facts and merits!
stand your grounds but you can’t ignore other aspects associated with it that doesn’t support your perception...

Yes there is no shame in getting outside help/assistance, in tejas we had alot of help maybe without which it couldn’t have been possible but difference with turkey is they aren’t absorbing technology as us!
their projects are more like Pakistan jf17 that they tout as their own with Chinese assistance!

Yes, that is something only time will tell.
Countries (that are technological inferior) tend to develop technology and know how by collaboration with existing manufacturer or getting assistance from someone who has know-how. Their is no point of reinventing wheel from 0.
At the same time, these countries (Middle East) have historically failed to assimilate the know-how in local level once the project is finished

last but not the least...expertise isn’t achieved by the time, it is achieved by the will of need!! Best example ISRO!

That is 100% true. No one can refute that.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I don't know either you are ignorant or trade matter to you more than system capability and indigenous efforts , turkish missile program was assisted by mbda , and other nato players fully .

Their is a reason why government is suddenly interested in defense export is because we are currently stuck in a loop

1. Armed Forces have a requirement
2. DRDO and allied agencies request fund for feasibility study and lay down specifications
3. DRDO and allied agencies request fund for R&D and prototype
4. By the time the weapon systems are ready, they tend to be behind latest technological curve. Armed services show their reluctance to acquire them
5. We then face issue for mass manufacturing
6. DRDO and allied agencies request fund for R&D for up-gradation and follow on project (these approvals are dependent on the armed forces mood)

With exports the dependence on fund form government will reduce, the manufacturing line will not idle and most important their will be added incentive to keep the development continuing.

We have astra mk 2 in deveolpment ,that too with oyr own seeker ,they don't .

You are again validating my point. Just because we developed Astra Mk. 1 though with Russian help like seeker, etc. and was inducted in our armed forces we were able to start development Astra Mk. 2 with improved capabilities and increased indigenous content.
Finishing project and getting the product inducted opens avenues to improving the said product.

Just because they assemble and export , Don't make them superior

That is my point exactly . Just because they assemble and export doesn't make them superior nor does that make them inferior.
What some members are claiming is that just because they assemble and export it makes them inferior.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

Just look at F-16 Block 70/72 and the pace on which it is improving. Their are some conflicting reports that PAF is trying to acquire F-16 Block 70/72 .

they will get only 8 f16 that too block 50/52, that is Bangladesh which will be getting block70/72 it was very reason they have removed that line Except Israel From their passports!

Yes, that is something only time will tell.
Countries (that are technological inferior) tend to develop technology and know how by collaboration with existing manufacturer or getting assistance from someone who has know-how. Their is no point of reinventing wheel from 0.
At the same time, these countries (Middle East) have historic failed to assimilate the know-how in local level once the project is finished

Not just middle east, you can’t forget mig21 were being manufactured in India that same time china was reverse engineering it and we were the same like turkey & Pakistan that time!
Even with su30mki we didn’t grasped anything and a political failure that with such huge order there wasn’t any TOT done!

 

[Lonewolf]

Their is a reason why government is suddenly interested in defense export is because we are currently stuck in a loop

1. Armed Forces have a requirement
2. DRDO and allied agencies request fund for feasibility study and lay down specifications
3. DRDO and allied agencies request fund for R&D and prototype
4. By the time the weapon systems are ready, they tend to be behind latest technological curve. Armed services show their reluctance to acquire them
5. We then face issue for mass manufacturing
6. DRDO and allied agencies request fund for R&D for up-gradation and follow on project (these approvals are dependent on the armed forces mood)

Actually ,no country can make a missile with specs that of best in world in first attempt , you have to go through learning curve , dual pulse can't be made in first attempt ,if you don't have experience in single pulse ,either someone hands over you full tech for single pulse to work upon dual pulse ,seeker can't be developed in forst attempt ,that too aesa and with top notch capability .

Turks were called inferior ,because they were unable to do it on their own and have to rope in external help ,now coming to astra ,forces needed a bvr and when astra was sanctioned ,it faced problem and was almost shelved of by asshole from 2014 ,our present drdo chief was the one to rake initiative and ask for more funding ,atleast something that any other country would have required .

Now we have seen tvc motor in development and may see it astra too ,seeker is replaced and tested ,will be replace by aesa seeker soon .

 

[Blank]

It's not all fault for DRDO. Procurement process in India is too long. Many trials happens too. I have not heard much trials like how India does from other countries.

 

[Kchontha]

There are so many advantages of fighters being built inhouse so amca, tedbf/orca, n mwf must be built at any cost.

 

[Spitfire9]

There are so many advantages of fighters being built inhouse so amca, tedbf/orca, n mwf must be built at any cost.

GOI does not want to invest in building more than a trickle of fighter aircraft so whatever advantages local design and production give are diluted by insufficient production. That leads to supply shortfall and the need to purchase very expensive foreign fighters. Result: less funds available to design, develop and build Indian fighters in India.

Rafale deal value is reported to be $7.8 billion for 36 aircraft. More than $200 million cost per Rafale.

Mk1A deal value is reported to be $6.7 billion for 83 aircraft. Almost exactly $80 million cost per Mk1A/trainer.

Flyaway cost for Mk1A is reported to be less than $45 million. Yet GOI still does not want to invest in raising production capacity?

 

[Trololo]

I think from the way things are going the folks from both govt and IAF are waiting for the Mk2 to see where our industry has come to. Remember that Mk1A is an incremental upgrade in the form of airframe and a reasonably major upgrade from the PoV of electronics. It will do well to serve as a point defence fighter and also for shallow cross border ops. Mk2 will be the real deal that the Air Force people are looking at. And also in my view the Mk2 is what is going to cement India's place in the global aerospace market. We cannot afford to stumble here.

 

[Lonewolf]

GOI does not want to invest in building more than a trickle of fighter aircraft so whatever advantages local design and production give are diluted by insufficient production. That leads to supply shortfall and the need to purchase very expensive foreign fighters. Result: less funds available to design, develop and build Indian fighters in India.

Rafale deal value is reported to be $7.8 billion for 36 aircraft. More than $200 million cost per Rafale.

Mk1A deal value is reported to be $6.7 billion for 83 aircraft. Almost exactly $80 million cost per Mk1A/trainer.

Flyaway cost for Mk1A is reported to be less than $45 million. Yet GOI still does not want to invest in raising production capacity?

This attitude will change with mk2 , mk1 was planned to be sabotaged by iaf , mod bureaucracy for import for some bribe , they tried to kill it multiple times , when during era of ACM bs dhanoa and late mr manohar parrikar came ,they assessed the ground situation , mk1 tejas was just a role filler of mig 21 ,27 etc ,and that rafale deal with indian assembly was just a good for political optics deal nothing good for india .so they chose to import 36 rafale and in future 36 more of f4 Variant , now tejas was a mess in hal and it took hal some years to clear it up , streamlined process and clear up inefficiency , to improve build quality from 2005 level to present ones .

All of players involved were the reason for fuck up , now the mk 2 tejas is the dream aircraft of iaf , light , high payload , internal ew suite ,irst and all . And due to iaf only ,ada redesigned it to be a mwf from another lca ,lot of aerodynamic improvement , canards and all ,just to cover up for the high payload it will carry .

Hal is not so excited about mk1 ,they just wanna move fast to mk1a and mk2 .

Iaf has promised a order of north of 200 fighter in least prediction by analyst ,it would be 170 aircraft , that's quite a handsome order for hal to expand production lines .

 

[SavageKing456]

I think from the way things are going the folks from both govt and IAF are waiting for the Mk2 to see where our industry has come to. Remember that Mk1A is an incremental upgrade in the form of airframe and a reasonably major upgrade from the PoV of electronics. It will do well to serve as a point defence fighter and also for shallow cross border ops. Mk2 will be the real deal that the Air Force people are looking at. And also in my view the Mk2 is what is going to cement India's place in the global aerospace market. We cannot afford to stumble here.

This also makes sense that there would be several hitjob articles on mwf and intense lobbying,crying so that IAF does not orders them.

This would be final battle for our aerospace industry and I think we should win this at any means necessary or else India would be thrown into the abyss of defence imports.

 

[Trololo]

This also makes sense that there would be several hitjob articles on mwf and intense lobbying,crying so that IAF does not orders them.

This would be final battle for our aerospace industry and I think we should win this at any means necessary or else India would be thrown into the abyss of defence imports.

Spot on. And finally newspaper reports do not matter since the forces will buy the article they want. Editors do not make such decisions. We need to ensure that the corrupt and lazy are kept away and punished so that Mk2 is a success. In the last 5-7 years the turnaround of HAL has been noticeable as well. We need to push very hard to ensure the Mk2 is a grand success. 100+ orders as soon as trials are done.

 

[Lonewolf]

This also makes sense that there would be several hitjob articles on mwf and intense lobbying,crying so that IAF does not orders them.

This would be final battle for our aerospace industry and I think we should win this at any means necessary or else India would be thrown into the abyss of defence imports.

Lol ada wants it in production by 2025 26 for lsp , fucking ambitious ,they wanna test multiple capability in single flight , i Expect 1 year delay and a pessimist 2 year delay .

 

[Lonewolf]

Spot on. And finally newspaper reports do not matter since the forces will buy the article they want. Editors do not make such decisions. We need to ensure that the corrupt and lazy are kept away and punished so that Mk2 is a success. In the last 5-7 years the turnaround of HAL has been noticeable as well. We need to push very hard to ensure the Mk2 is a grand success. 100+ orders as soon as trials are done.

200+ by iaf promised

 

[Trololo]

Lol ada wants it in production by 2025 26 for lsp , fucking ambitious ,they wanna test multiple capability in single flight , i Expect 1 year delay and a pessimist 2 year delay .

Delay is accounted for. Realistically things won't get certified and ready for induction until 2027-28. At best we will see a production run start at that same time period. Unless they go with 2 squadrons in IOC condition.

 

[notaname]

Lol ada wants it in production by 2025 26 for lsp , fucking ambitious ,they wanna test multiple capability in single flight , i Expect 1 year delay and a pessimist 2 year delay .

Provided baba wins or we will be back to square one and the project will never get realised.