Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[farhan_9909]

Sorry, but there is no way for sucht penetration level in Pakistan and even Chineese APFSDS ammo, due to sevral resons:

1. Avaible now sources give
Naiza-1 460mm RHA for 2000m
DU round - 550mm RHA for 2000m
No infos about Naiza-2, but we can suspected that new pakistan APFSDS round will be strongly conected whit China and it's industry.

2. There is no one proof that Chinese 125mm ammo achive even 650mm RHA for 2000m:
- on allavaible photos whit chineese 125mm APFSDS we can se or Israeli Cl.mk2 clones (~540mm RHA on 2000m), or 3BM42 clones (guaranteed 460mm RHA, achaivable 500mm RHA on 2000m) there is no APFSDS whit longer penetrator...
- to achive level 650mm RHA + Russian in Sniviets-1/2 (or lead-1/2) APFSDS rounds need longer projectile - L:740mm whit longer penetrator. this forced improved carousell autoloader in T-90A (Ob.188A2) whit longer avaible casettes. Older tanks are not able to takes Sniviets.
There is no infos about autoloaders in chineese and pakistani tanks whit simmilar solution. Older autoloader forced projectiles whit 640-680mm lenght. Whit this L ratio achive even 650mm will be almoust imposible.
- there wasn't technology transfer of Snivets-1/2 to china (there is no single mention about that), in fact avaible now technology in China is mixed from:
a) israeli IMI 125mm ammo CL Mk.2
b) 3BM42 and propably 3BM32 technology
c) own china invention
In fact what was avaible for china I put on that picture:

-there are serious question about gun metalurgy avaible in China and Pakistan. Those Al-Khalid gun don't even stand near old good german L-44 Rh120, not even mentioned L-55. The same 2A46-M5/M6 is better then avaible Chinese 125mm guns.

More or less there is noeven one proof that Naiza-2 can achive even 600mm RHA. The same story is about chineese 125mm -but here is even funnier becouse interent is full of stupid fanboys claiming about super-duper-chineese-125mm APFSDS avaible to perforate ~900mm RHA and two M1A2 Abrams one by one
Sorry -there is no mirracle in metalurgy or defense industry.

Well the new Round or NAIZA 2 might be for the AK2(under development redesigned turret,close to 55tonnes weight,turret bustle autoloaded similar to oplot m and a 1500hp engine)..

Al khalid II was initially planned to get into service by 2011-12 but now delayed to 2015
Latest picture of naiza from ideas 2012

 

[farhan_9909]

Oh -I forgot -in fact some rumors says that ZTZ-99A2 have loger autolader cassete and MBT-3000 have the same autoloader, but I need comfirmed this infos -untill two independend sources not comfirmed this it will be only rumors for me :
BTW: Pakistani 125mm seems to by cloned KBA-3 -so old 2A45M whit cloned french technology of making a gun. Old story a the begining Ukrainian-Russia war about those 320 T-80UD. In those time factory no9 in Russia make small embargo for Ukraina about gun technology. It was fatal decision for russian industry and OPSPEC couse that fact was used by Frencht GIAT to entry on Ukraina and...gave some technology (Thermal cameras, turret bustle autoloaders, technology of making guns, part of FCS) but in the same time taking tons of documentation, ERA components, even completed tanks, rounds, etc. Just candy shop for western (mostly Frencht and German) inteligencs. Some very interesting test where made in those times (Kontak-5 on T-80U and UD vs DM43, vs OLF-F1, vs M332 the same on Knive module), etc.

THe gun is based/modified ukranian gun with the help of ukranian built at Heavy mechanical complex taxila

as per an insider from PDF whose father is part of HMC and a colonel in army as well.he confirmed this through his father that unlike the older 48cal. gun on BAsic AK

the new gun being built in HMC is 50cal.

 

[militarysta]

Well the new Round or NAIZA 2 might be for the AK2(under development redesigned turret,close to 55tonnes weight,turret bustle autoloaded similar to oplot m and a 1500hp engine)..

In Ob.478DU10 (Oplot-M) there is no turret bustle autoloader -just typical autoloader from T-64/80UD seriees.

Latest picture of naiza from ideas 2012

Not very good quality, but IMHO this round haven't longer projectile.

 

[Akim]

In Ob.478DU10 (Oplot-M) there is no turret bustle autoloader -just typical autoloader from T-64/80UD seriees.
.

Most likely, he was referring to the MBT BM Yatagan

 

[farhan_9909]

In Ob.478DU10 (Oplot-M) there is no turret bustle autoloader -just typical autoloader from T-64/80UD seriees.


Not very good quality, but IMHO this round haven't longer projectile.

well i will post the extract later.PA official has shown interest in the turret bustle autoloader of a ukranian tank....

 

[Damian]

BM Yatagan and BM Oplot side by side, significant differences visible.

 

[Black Blood]

BM Yatagan and BM Oplot side by side, significant differences visible.

These are not Al-khalids. Where did you get this snap from?

 

[farhan_9909]

These are not Al-khalids. Where did you get this snap from?

they are oplot and yatagan

the yatagan one has a 120mm smoothbore gun and turret bustle autoloader..which means despite autoloader it can stil fire long rod penetrator

AL khalid,t-90 series(excluding t-90ms),OPLOT,type 99 series(except a2)..they all can't fire long rod penetrator

 

[farhan_9909]

Aorak Mk1 era
Aorak mk2 already developed(2010?) with ukraine help
Aorak MK3 under development

 

[Dazzler]

Contrary to popular belief, Alkhalid series has a modified autoloader (unlike the t-72's 6eTs series) that supports long rod penetrators. Internet pictures are hard to find but AK-1 autoloader is developed with solid state electronic support. Naiza DU is not displayed on POF website and will never be



Modern warfare demands installation of robust control systems in main battle tank to enhance firepower and maneuverability. CARE has developed Solid State Autoloader for Pakistan Army main battle tank MBT Al-Khalid, replacing the Chinese Autoloader. The auto-loading mechanism consists of two subsections, the Motorized Mechanical Subsystem consisting of carousel magazine, hoister mechanism, ejection frame and window assemblies etc. Driven by several high power motors and solenoids along with mechanical proximity switches. The other part is the electric control subsystem, responsible for coordinated control of various operations carried out by the mechanical subsystem.

The solid state Autoloader developed by CARE has eliminated the need for relay and utilizes the latest solid-state electronic devices to provide the control functionalities hence leading to most reliable system.

Completely solid-state design with NO RELAYS
Design based on programmable logic, processor and FPGAs
100% compatible with Tank's existing mechanical design / mounting as well as the wiring harness and connectors
Bi-directional carousal motion leading to substantial reduction in the maximum loading time for the farthest ammo
Simultaneous display of the number of each ammo type (i.e. HE/HA/AP) present in carousel magazine along with the number of empty trays

 

[Dazzler]

IDEAS 2012,,, some new armour...

AK..

 

[Damian]

Contrary to popular belief, Alkhalid series has a modified autoloader (unlike the t-72's 6eTs series) that supports long rod penetrators.

If you would have any knowledge about tanks, their history of development and practical use, you would know that T-72 series use AZ autoloader series not 6ETs series that are used in T-64, T-80 and T-84 series.

AZ is short of автомат заряжания which translates to autoloader, while 6ETs autoloaders are also called MZ that is short for механизм заряжания which translates as loading mechanism.

And all APFSDS penetrators are long rods, the difference is that there are shorter and longer rods, Al Khalid autoloader is based on Chinese copy of the AZ autoloader, it is immposible to put there APFSDS ammunition with rods longer than 650-700mm and improved autoloader can take only APFSDS ammunition with max 740mm long penetrators, while in NATO, APFSDS ammunition have increased lenght of penetrator to enormous 800mm in case of M829A3 and this will increase in future, for 140mm smoothbore guns, NATO projected 1,000mm (or more) long penetrators for APFSDS ammunition.

 

[farhan_9909]

Armor protection is modular, allowing for quick battle damage repairs and improvement as more advanced armor becomes available or heavier armor is desired. Frontal armor is composite and of Pakistani design, with side armor being spaced; it is of a more modern design than that on the Al-Zarrar and lighter in weight. The turret front, turret sides, glacis, and hull sides have lugs for ERA. Attention was paid to land mine damage in the form of thickened floor armor. /The ammunition is carried in armored bins, and virtually the entire vehicle has thick Kevlar anti-spalling blankets. The engine also has a thick bulkhead separating it from the crew compartment. An automatic explosion and fire suppression system is provided, and the crew has an NBC overpressure system; the engine compartment and ammunition bins have their own systems of the same sort. The Al-Khalid has a laser detection system that can automatically trigger smoke grenades to block the laser, and a radar warning system that can give the crew a chance to take evasive action.


Pakistani Tanks

 

[Dazzler]

If you would have any knowledge about tanks, their history of development and practical use, you would know that T-72 series use AZ autoloader series not 6ETs series that are used in T-64, T-80 and T-84 series.

AZ is short of автомат заряжания which translates to autoloader, while 6ETs autoloaders are also called MZ that is short for механизм заряжания which translates as loading mechanism.

And all APFSDS penetrators are long rods, the difference is that there are shorter and longer rods, Al Khalid autoloader is based on Chinese copy of the AZ autoloader, it is immposible to put there APFSDS ammunition with rods longer than 650-700mm and improved autoloader can take only APFSDS ammunition with max 740mm long penetrators, while in NATO, APFSDS ammunition have increased lenght of penetrator to enormous 800mm in case of M829A3 and this will increase in future, for 140mm smoothbore guns, NATO projected 1,000mm (or more) long penetrators for APFSDS ammunition.

please dont stretch things by saying you know it all and rest are dumbers.

Thanks

 

[Damian]

please dont stretch things by saying you know it all and rest are dumbers.

I didn't said so. However you made significant mistakes, probably due to lack of knowledge, which is not something to be shame of. 90% of people interested in military technology, does not have any deeper, more reliable knowledge, simply because good sources of information are hard to be found or very expensive.

 

[Akim]

In the Al-Kh would not fit ML. There is a big basket of the hydraulics and the vertical location of cartridge.
For this we need to develop new hull and turret. If this is set in the standard form of the weakened side area

 

[farhan_9909]

In the Al-Kh would not fit ML. There is a big basket of the hydraulics and the vertical location of cartridge.
For this we need to develop new hull and turret. If this is set in the standard form of the weakened side area

@Damian

well i think AL khalid does has a autoloader similar to t-80ud..which could also be the reason why PA opted for kombat
watch onward 1:15

 

[militarysta]

Contrary to popular belief, Alkhalid series has a modified autoloader (unlike the t-72's 6eTs series) that supports long rod penetrators.

What do You mean in case "long rod"?
Long rod's are able to takes in western manual loaded ammo - when whole projectile is 950-1000mm long.
In russian tanks autoloader and it's clones in both series AZ and 6ET's we have some max penetrator lengh able to take between 680 and 730mm. It's the first problem.

Second problem is technology avaible for Pakistan in APFSDS ammo case.

 

[farhan_9909]

What do You mean in case "long rod"?
Long rod's are able to takes in western manual loaded ammo - when whole projectile is 950-1000mm long.
In russian tanks autoloader and it's clones in both series AZ and 6ET's we have some max penetrator lengh able to take between 680 and 730mm. It's the first problem.

Second problem is technology avaible for Pakistan in APFSDS ammo case.

Pakistan has been involved in tanks manufacturing since 1972

what if Pakistan has got the tech from china?
i mean they have the experience,money,industrial base and what not

 

[farhan_9909]

there are three more firms

but POF which makes the naiza series is 60years older firm and with export in excess 100millions per year

a very huge facility

Pakistan Ordnance Factories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia