Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[farhan_9909]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

mbt-3000

the turret might be like this

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

I thought that cash crunch had forced the Pak army to shelve plans for alkhalid2. Anyways good luck for its development.
BTW, I would be weary of comparing it to FMBT,simply because it will be based on the Arjun, a very heavy MBT, while AK is a lighter platform, not to mention that higher funds will allow the IA to spend much higher per tank than your army can, which will translate to better performance.

 

[farhan_9909]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

I thought that cash crunch had forced the Pak army to shelve plans for alkhalid2. Anyways good luck for its development.
BTW, I would be weary of comparing it to FMBT,simply because it will be based on the Arjun, a very heavy MBT, while AK is a lighter platform, not to mention that higher funds will allow the IA to spend much higher per tank than your army can, which will translate to better performance.

not much heavy.bt rather medium weight.

and there is a limit of pouring money into something..you just cant make arjun cost 100millions each even if your budget is 1 trillions usd

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

not much heavy.bt rather medium weight.

and there is a limit of pouring money into something..you just cant make arjun cost 100millions each even if your budget is 1 trillions usd

The arjun ii is 65-67 tons, so ya, it is a very heavy MBT.
And you are right that we cant pour money to insane tunes on our tanks, but we can significantly outspend you in this domain. The current arjun costs $8 million per tank, with the mk ii expected to be higher,so the amount we might spend on the mkiii (the FMBT) will be even higher,maybe as much as your JF -17,(i admit its a long shot though). This will translate to better performance.
You must understand that the IA with more resources in hand will not take a tank inferior in capability to that operated by the Pak army, a national ego, if you will,and justified by higher budgets.

 

[farhan_9909]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

The arjun ii is 65-67 tons, so ya, it is a very heavy MBT.
And you are right that we cant pour money to insane tunes on our tanks, but we can significantly outspend you in this domain. The current arjun costs $8 million per tank, with the mk ii expected to be higher,so the amount we might spend on the mkiii (the FMBT) will be even higher,maybe as much as your JF -17,(i admit its a long shot though). This will translate to better performance.
You must understand that the IA with more resources in hand will not take a tank inferior in capability to that operated by the Pak army, a national ego, if you will,and justified by higher budgets.

arjun cost 8millions because it is nt into a fast rate mass production..120 arjun ordered in 2004 and delivered in 2011

do you have any idea of jft cost?i am sure no

basic mbt-2000 is exported to bangladesh at a cost of 4.5millions each

the Al khalid has a western sub system and ukranian engine.so must cost even more

fmbt will be the main tank of IA..because the recent notion suggest that not more than 500 will be produced..even 500 are hardly unlikley.because by 2020 fmbt will be ready and that would be mass produced.which is a 50t tank

and more weight doesnt mean more capable

 

[Black Blood]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

I thought that cash crunch had forced the Pak army to shelve plans for alkhalid2. Anyways good luck for its development.
BTW, I would be weary of comparing it to FMBT,simply because it will be based on the Arjun, a very heavy MBT, while AK is a lighter platform, not to mention that higher funds will allow the IA to spend much higher per tank than your army can, which will translate to better performance.

Higher cost doesn't necessarily translate into better performance.Less/Unit cost means more platforms which means numerical equilibrium.

As, of today Arjun is little more than an R&D project.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

Higher cost doesn't necessarily translate into better performance.Less/Unit cost means more platforms which means numerical equilibrium.

As, of today Arjun is little more than an R&D project.

I agree with your 1st part, but to term the Arjun as a mere R&D project would be an understatement IMHO. The number of arjuns ordered is 248 with the DRDO stating that it could increase to 400-500. So by which definition would you call this a mere R&D project,especially given that Pak itself has only ~320 AKs. Also it has been decided that the FMBT will be an evolution of the Arjun and has a requirement of around 1000-1500 post 2020. So even by sheer numbers it will be a bigger success than the AK.

 

[ice berg]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

I agree with your 1st part, but to term the Arjun as a mere R&D project would be an understatement IMHO. The number of arjuns ordered is 248 with the DRDO stating that it could increase to 400-500. So by which definition would you call this a mere R&D project,especially given that Pak itself has only ~320 AKs. Also it has been decided that the FMBT will be an evolution of the Arjun and has a requirement of around 1000-1500 post 2020. So even by sheer numbers it will be a bigger success than the AK.

AFAIK IA only ordered 124 of them. What they could order in future is irrelevant. You dont know for sure if or how many they gonna order.

 

[Decklander]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

AFAIK IA only ordered 124 of them. What they could order in future is irrelevant. You dont know for sure if or how many they gonna order.

After first batch of 124 a followon order for another 124 was placed for MK1s. The MK2s will have an order of nearly 300+ once trials are concluded to the satisfaction of IA. The chasis of Arjun is also going to become the standard chasis for many other kind of armoured units like self propelled gun, bridge layers etc.
FMBT will be around 50tons weight as it will have a three man crew with separate crew compartment that will help reduce nearly 15 tons from Arjun while the new engine will be of 1800HP and the gun might be turretless. That will make Arjun the mightiest of them all.

 

[Black Blood]

Al-Khalid is designed with a 125 mm (length: 48 calibers) smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire the following types of conventional ammunition: APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS. Despite a common belief that the gun is Chinese, it was later changed to a modified variant of KBA-3 series of 125"¯mm smooth bore gun for Al-khalid mbt which provided compatibility with Ukrainian ATGMs such as Kombat. Gun-launched, laser-guided anti-tank guided missiles can also be launched and two types are believed to be in use on the Al-Khalid, the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) produced in China under licence and the Ukrainian-designed Kombat,[17] which may have been modified in Pakistan to incorporate a larger warhead.[18]

Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armor penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km).[19] Al-Khalid is equipped with a muzzle reference system and dual-axis stabilization system. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The automatic ammunition-handling system for the main gun has a 24-round ready-to-fire magazine and can load and fire at a rate of eight rounds per minute.

HEAVY MECHANICAL COMPLEX PRODUCES 125 MM GUN FOR AL-KHALID AND AL-ZARAR MBT

Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) has indigenously developed a gun which can be installed on the Main Battle Tanks (MBT) produced by the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT). HIT officials say that gun is ready for the installation on the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks.

Previously Heavy Industries Taxila was importing the 125 mm 'blanks' from France for the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar main battle tanks. 125 mm 'blanks' were the final shape of the gun barrel before it is finished which were later finished at HIT.


Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) has placed an order for the production of 50 125 mm barrels with the Mechanical Complex (HMC). These 50 125 mm barrels will be installed on the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar main battle tanks.

Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) officials have also said that HMC plans to produce artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.

 

[farhan_9909]

@Black Blood

the above specs are of the older gun(uploaded by bezerk in 2009)(imported from france)

while HMC right now manufacture 125mm gun at home which is again based off ukrainian gun but is 50 calibre

Locally-produced gun delivered to HIT for tanks | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

ISLAMABAD, April 17: The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks.

So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre `blanks` from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs) of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting into the tank is done at the HIT.

The first blank has been jointly produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited (PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related organisations, in coordination with the army — the end-user

 

[Black Blood]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

After first batch of 124 a followon order for another 124 was placed for MK1s. The MK2s will have an order of nearly 300+ once trials are concluded to the satisfaction of IA.

Has I.A placed any orders for such numbers, or its just mare speculation?

The chasis of Arjun is also going to become the standard chasis for many other kind of armoured units like self propelled gun, bridge layers etc.

Same for AK series.

FMBT will be around 50tons weight as it will have a three man crew with separate crew compartment that will help reduce nearly 15 tons from Arjun

AFAIK FMBT has been shelved/cancelled

while the new engine will be of 1800HP and the gun might be turretless. That will make Arjun the mightiest of them all.

Is, the engine going to be an Indian engine or imported?

 

[Decklander]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

Total orders are 240, 124 for MK1 and 116 for MK2.
FMBT will now be called MK3 and here is the link for it.
Future Main Battle Tank - IDP Sentinel

 

[ice berg]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

You still havnt provided a link that says IA has placed an order for MK2.

 

[Decklander]

Re: Al-Khalid 2 Main Battle Tank

You still havnt provided a link that says IA has placed an order for MK2.

Arjun MBT Mk-II - IDP Sentinel

 

[farhan_9909]

@militarysta

wanted to reply in this thread.since that thread was for the atlay tank

*The number of al khalid in service are way more than 300(Basic AK order)
And we Don't know how many AK1 are in service so far

High demand of 'Al-Khalid' tank in modern warfare | The Nation

Just to post off some main points about Al khalid I and the upgrade over basic AL khalid

*Upgraded armour(rumours were in 2004-05 that pak had struck a jv with ukraine to develop jointly armour and ERA for Al khalid)
*New IBMS by a pakistani firm(picture will be posted)
*Ukranian varta APS
*The tank is now perhaps one of the most heavily weaponized per tonnage of any tank, being able to carry 49 125mm rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds.(Basic AK basic ammo capacity 39)
*Thickened side skirts
*New transmission(french)
*full electric turret control
*Sagim matis third gen thermal imagers(similar to leclerc)


Date of AK1 intro sep 2009.been more than 3 years.so atleast 100 AK1 would be in service

300-basic AK
odd-Ak1



take a look at Basic Al khalid..the side skirts are just a mere thin metal plate

now take a look at the prototype of Al khalid I with thickened side skirts,picture from 2008

now take a look at the mass produced Al khalid I(picture feb 2010)

pictures captured from a video

so we are constantly upgrading the AL khalid.

 

[farhan_9909]

Credit goes to Usman Shabbir from Pakdef forum,,,, this is when he visited HIT in 2004 so not latest but interesting....


"When visiting POF Wah one should have at least a week's time so as to have enough time to visit all the 11 factories located their. Due to some personal engagements we only had few hours and we chose the two above mentioned factories. The visit to Tank/Anti-Tank Ammunitions Factory was really and truly impressive – seeing the production of 125mm APFSDS rounds from start to finish and the explanation of the whole process by the guide (a chemical engineer) were really informative.

Right now the factory is producing a 125mm Tungsten alloy core APFSDS round with a penetration of 460mm and within a year another 125mm round with the penetration capabilities of 550mm will enter service. POF also recently tested a DU 125 mm round produced by PAEC and certified it for an unbelievable 620mm – though I am not sure if this round has already entered service or not. But nonetheless Indians better add a few more tons to their Arjun. The huge steel blocks that were used during penetration/weapon trials were also on display with some neat holes in them – and on seeing those I of course kicked myself for forgetting to bring the camera.

We were also told be officials at POF Wah that Bangladesh has ordered 10000 100mm shells and 3500 105mm shells and Saudi Arabia has also ordered a large quantity of 81mm mortars and ammunition. There were also some additional news bits but I guess I have a short memory.

something might be of your interest

you were indeed right.initially Pak had the 460mm (penetration) APFSDS round till 2004 when the 550mm penetration one was certified for mass production onwards
one yet another with 620mm penetration power of rha at 2km was tested but not confirmed whether it was later adopted or we are still sticked to the 550mm naiza

USMAN is a writer for janes and defencenews.com from pakistan.and is someone very credible

 

[maomao]

Is this chinese tank AL-Khalid any good?

I mean if it is pitched against T-54/55 will it perform at decent satisfaction levels?

Will it even survive against T-72s?

Leave Arjun, T-90s and Markevas aside for the time-being!

 

[militarysta]

i guess the naiza 2 was later upgraded to 680mm penetration at 2km
because i remember checking out posts in pakdef. to be introduced a new round with 680mm penetration

bt since the Ak1 prototype was nt revealed by HIT in ideas 2008.seems like this was nt revealed too.

and since 2008 no ideas def expo is repeated yet
they might reveal this new round as well as more info about the long rod penetrator for the bustle autoloader in the AK2

Sorry, but there is no way for sucht penetration level in Pakistan and even Chineese APFSDS ammo, due to sevral resons:

1. Avaible now sources give
Naiza-1 460mm RHA for 2000m
DU round - 550mm RHA for 2000m
No infos about Naiza-2, but we can suspected that new pakistan APFSDS round will be strongly conected whit China and it's industry.

2. There is no one proof that Chinese 125mm ammo achive even 650mm RHA for 2000m:
- on allavaible photos whit chineese 125mm APFSDS we can se or Israeli Cl.mk2 clones (~540mm RHA on 2000m), or 3BM42 clones (guaranteed 460mm RHA, achaivable 500mm RHA on 2000m) there is no APFSDS whit longer penetrator...
- to achive level 650mm RHA + Russian in Sniviets-1/2 (or lead-1/2) APFSDS rounds need longer projectile - L:740mm whit longer penetrator. this forced improved carousell autoloader in T-90A (Ob.188A2) whit longer avaible casettes. Older tanks are not able to takes Sniviets.
There is no infos about autoloaders in chineese and pakistani tanks whit simmilar solution. Older autoloader forced projectiles whit 640-680mm lenght. Whit this L ratio achive even 650mm will be almoust imposible.
- there wasn't technology transfer of Snivets-1/2 to china (there is no single mention about that), in fact avaible now technology in China is mixed from:
a) israeli IMI 125mm ammo CL Mk.2
b) 3BM42 and propably 3BM32 technology
c) own china invention
In fact what was avaible for china I put on that picture:

-there are serious question about gun metalurgy avaible in China and Pakistan. Those Al-Khalid gun don't even stand near old good german L-44 Rh120, not even mentioned L-55. The same 2A46-M5/M6 is better then avaible Chinese 125mm guns.

More or less there is noeven one proof that Naiza-2 can achive even 600mm RHA. The same story is about chineese 125mm -but here is even funnier becouse interent is full of stupid fanboys claiming about super-duper-chineese-125mm APFSDS avaible to perforate ~900mm RHA and two M1A2 Abrams one by one
Sorry -there is no mirracle in metalurgy or defense industry.

 

[militarysta]

Oh -I forgot -in fact some rumors says that ZTZ-99A2 have loger autolader cassete and MBT-3000 have the same autoloader, but I need comfirmed this infos -untill two independend sources not comfirmed this it will be only rumors for me :
BTW: Pakistani 125mm seems to by cloned KBA-3 -so old 2A45M whit cloned french technology of making a gun. Old story a the begining Ukrainian-Russia war about those 320 T-80UD. In those time factory no9 in Russia make small embargo for Ukraina about gun technology. It was fatal decision for russian industry and OPSPEC couse that fact was used by Frencht GIAT to entry on Ukraina and...gave some technology (Thermal cameras, turret bustle autoloaders, technology of making guns, part of FCS) but in the same time taking tons of documentation, ERA components, even completed tanks, rounds, etc. Just candy shop for western (mostly Frencht and German) inteligencs. Some very interesting test where made in those times (Kontak-5 on T-80U and UD vs DM43, vs OLF-F1, vs M332 the same on Knive module), etc.