Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[Kunal Biswas]

i said as per Ukrainian the al Zarar upgrade Program to bring them Close to t80ud level.check out in global security
strange your taking damian post serious

Yeah much of that already proved here..

I can count on Damian words so does many who understand tanks..

Seems like you dont even know about guns and there chamber pressure.(will post Am articLE about guns chamber pressure and there effect,muzzle velocity),the al Zarar gun muzzle velocity for a round is 1730m/s(posted in the guns thread)while just 1600m/s for the 19th century invented rifled gun of arjun(posted in the same thread)

and wake up and drop your underestimation habit

again nothing comparable to AK1 in the region
this is reality now.the sooner you accept the better it is

I wont care to reply the garbage you posted, further your insecurity is certain as you bring Arjun to create diversion..

But fact remain you cannot admit what you posted on first place which contradict your own statement afterwards and there is denial to admit flaws coz it hurts your National pride..

 

[farhan_9909]

Yeah much of that already proved here..

I can count on Damian words so does many who understand tanks..



I wont care to reply the garbage you posted, further your insecurity is certain as you bring Arjun to create diversion..

But fact remain you cannot admit what you posted on first place which contradict your own statement afterwards and there is denial to admit flaws coz it hurts your National pride..

can you quote those flaws.
At one your point calling AK gun inferior.
While when i pointed that arjun rifled gun is even worse with just 1600m/s muzzle velocity.
Now your changing points

basic ak gun cCHAMBER PRESSURE is 5750 bars.enough to tear any armour
while the gun is even upgraded in the AK1 variant.with no official source but there are two rumours
1:chamber pressure 6250 bars
2:6700bars

though for official statements we would have to wait till the ideas def expo

well damian might have knowledge but didnot you noticed he called AK a Chinese crap despite quoting just 5% Chinese components in AK.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

can you quote those flaws.At one your point calling AK gun inferior.

basic ak gun cCHAMBER PRESSURE is5750 bars.enough to tear any armour,

while the gun is even upgraded in the AK1 variant.with no official source but there are two rumours
1:chamber pressure 6250 bars
2:6700bars

though for official statements we would have to wait till the ideas def expo

AK a Chinese crap despite quoting just 5% Chinese components in AK.

Turn few pages back, It in the same thread and full of it.. So all the time you run with rumors ?

Its not official then some Internet fan boy rumor cannot be taken into account..

Weak Knowledge and over estimate coz of National reasons, In my view its already a doom coz its deigned by Chinese..

While when i pointed that arjun rifled gun is even worse,Now your changing points

Now Question is why you are bringing Arjun in Al-khalid thread ? unless you want to divert attention from Al-Khalid to Arjun via going this vs that, Not happening !

Contradiction your own points by calling others stop throwing mud, It just show how insecure you feel..

 

[farhan_9909]

muzzle velocity matter more or the max gun chamber pressure

Exactly, AK gun pressure is enough to tear almost every mbt armour in existence out there, during trials, it ripped ERA equipped undisclosed mbt! No further details can be given but gun pressure is more dependant on shell velocity and 6250 is excellent pressure by any standards.

Here is an interesting post from Methos from defence forum india that sheds more light on the subject....


Read what I wrote above in post #2092. BM-42 has large caliber fins and an overall greater diameter -> this will lead to more friction/drag -> higher loss of velocity during flight. BM-42 has a fin diameter of 125 mm, while 120 mm APFSDS have allways less than 100 mm fin diameter.

"Also as written in "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" monobloc penetrators have a higher penetration capability - DM 33 is monobloc, BM-42 uses a two-part tungsten core.

In my opinion the problem with WITU is that they base their "facts" probably at different sources. I.e. Jane's claims that DM 43 has a pressure value of 5500 bar (550 MPa), while U.S. sources attribute the same round with a chamber pressure of 5800 bar... because they probably use another base for their values. Rheinmetall stated in the old DM 63 article that DM 53/63 has a chamber pressure of 5500 bar at 15°c (the same as DM43). It has been claimed on German forums that at very hot climates (60-70°c) DM 53 is coming very close to the peak pressure of the shorter L/44 gun (7100 bar). So unless the Americans can't fire their APFSDS in hot climates (like Egypt, Afghanistan or Iraq) - which has been proven to be wrong - the U.S. use another base pressure values at least on a different situation (maybe also for velocity, but we don't know anything more detailed about it). So the 5800 bar for M829A2 in the image in post #2094 above could be practical 5500 bar at 15°c as for DM43.
One indicator that the U.S. might base their pressure values on another situation is the testing of KEW-A2 rounds in Leopard 2 tanks - there on page 14 is a graph about the performance of KEW-A2 regarding the dependency of speed on temperature: Jane's claimed that KEW-A2 has a muzzle velocity of 1,700 m/s - this is reached at ~22-23°c (~75°F) and not at 15°c! At 15°c the muzzle velocity is only ~1,675 m/s."

 

[farhan_9909]

lol your just creating confusion
5750 bars chamber pressure already proven(brochure from HIT)

but that gun is now a past tense

and those are NOT some internet fanboys rumour but serious though as i told you before your free not to believe
because it doesnt even matter whether you believe it or not.

 

[farhan_9909]

old picture i guess between 2004-06.different era layout

 

[Damian]

More important than velocity is ammunition design.

Today armor protection is based not on only stopping penetrating ammunition, but also litteraly destroying it. You can have very fast penetrator, but this can be just destroyed by modern armor.

How modern armor work, I described it many times.

So more important than velocity is penetrator lenght, it's diameter, materials from which it have been made, it's quality, and how it reacts to yaw, bending, breaking attempts, how quickly it will erode during penetration.

Pakistan use penetrators that can fit only in to autoloader derived from T-72 series, it means that penetrator lenght is limited by vehicle size (lenght and width). So even if these penetrators are fast, it does not mean that they are effective. Also we should ask about sabot design, if it is ring sabot, or NATO type sabot. NATO type sabot is bigger, and slightly heavier, but thanks to this, penetrator do not need big fins. Big fins during flight, are not good solution from aerodynamic point of view, and even if pentrator is very fast, very light, it lost it's velocity quicker than slower and heavier penetrator that have longer lenght, more diameter and smaller fins.

 

[farhan_9909]

about hunter killer capability of different tanks

Hunter Killer system is a capability that allows an mbt to look around 360 degree battlefield and track and engage enemy on earliest basis. This technology has been the focal point in modern western MBT philosophy and today all modern western, some easternbts have this capability. Soviet/ Russian and even early Ukrainian mbts lacked this function. T-72, T-80 and even T-90S does not have this but Chinese T-98/99 series DO have it. Hunter Killer consists of independent commander and gunner thermal imagers, laser range finders, and an auto tracking facility. This capability is further aided with an advanced Battle Management System, allowing the tank crew a more comprehensive battlefield awareness.

Regarding engaging Merks, M1A2s, i do not see any reason why AK cannot engage them with efficient HK and day night capabiliity with a powerful gun and ammunition, not to mention the missile firing ability with tandem warheads. This is why it is so important to see first-engage first and where panoramic sight and HK comes in to equation.

Chinese have been impressed by our thermal imager integration, efficient 6td2 engine and auto transmission, and BMS integration so early and they have opted for the same in their new 99A, 99B series, MBT 3000 series.

MBTs with Hunter Killer function:

AK, AK-1 series (PAK)
Oplot, T-84U series (Ukraine)
M1A2 series (US)
Challenger2 series (UK)
Merkava 3, 4 series (Israel)
Leopard 2A,4,5,6 series (Germany)
Type-90, Type-10 series (Japan)
K1A1, K2 BP series (SK)
T-90M (portable BMS device) (Russia)
T-90MS (Russia)
Leclerc (France)

Tanks without Hunter Killer

T-64, 72, T-80 and 90S series (Russia, Ukraine)

T-84 basic (Ukraine)

 

[farhan_9909]

i guess t80ud and AK(basic) both use same autoloader as both of them can fire the naiza du round.

Well ksa ruined everything

After the basic AK
next goal was direct to ak2(roughly 55tonnes weight,1500hp engine,new turret well almost a new tank by 2012)

the ak1 was basically intended to be exported to ksa.which consumed time plus resources

otherwise we would have ak2 with Ukrainian bustle autoloader such as in the yatagan

 

[Kunal Biswas]

muzzle velocity matter more or the max gun chamber pressure

Clue less..

lthose are NOT some internet fanboys rumor but serious though

No links = fanboy statement..

about hunter killer capability of different tanks

Does it have integrated NV and Thermal, then only a pure hunter killer..

 

[farhan_9909]

Clue less..



No links = fanboy statement..



Does it have integrated NV and Thermal, then only a pure hunter killer..

you had just confirmed that you dont know anything about al khalid or your playing with me
wasting my time as well
it does has dedicated night visions as well as thermal imagers

in 2000 AK was among the very few tanks with hunter killer ability from French leclerc

from wiki

The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic sight for all-around independent surveillance. Both sights are dual-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range-finders. The tank has true hunter-killer capability, giving the commander the ability to acquire new targets independently while the gunner is engaging another target. The automatic target-tracking system is designed to work when tank and target are both moving. Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual-magnification thermal imaging sight. Both sights are integrated with the fire-control system.[21] The production Al-Khalid tank has a fire-control system of western origin. In the MBT 2000, the Chinese Norinco fire-control system has inputs from ten sensors. The ballistic computation time is less than one second. The manufacturer claims routine first round hits on standard 8 ft (2.4 m) square targets at ranges over 2,000 meters.
Effective range: 200 to 7,000 metres
Sensor: laser ranging from 200 to 9,990 metres
French Auto-tracking, interfaced with gunner station, firing four types of munitions, gunner's thermal imaging sight, commander's image intensification night vision sight, gyro-stabilized and UPS power supply system.

Although prototypes were demonstrated with various fire-control systems of Chinese and western origin, the production model Al-Khalid MBTs use a Western fire-control system (FCS) and gun control system (GCS).[9]



and even more better thermal imagers in AK1


from wiki

Al-Khalid I – Upgraded variant in testing as of April 2009. Ammunition capacity increased to 49 125 mm rounds, 1,500 12.7 mm rounds and 7,100 7.62 mm rounds.[1] Incorporates modifications made to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, side-skirts, track pads, auto-loader (rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute), Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems), Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system

 

[farhan_9909]

atcop along with ios and aero were developing a APS system and full indigenous thermal IMAGERS FOR AK 2

even the fcs/gcs will be indigenous but it not known which firm will develop them

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The gunner and the commander with a panoramic sight Both sights are dual-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range-finders.

Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual-magnification thermal imaging sight. Both sights are integrated with the fire-control system.

Anything beside Wiki ?

 

[p2prada]

Well ksa ruined everything

You mean Saudi. Why? I am pretty sure export developments run parallel to military developments. Normally captive forces have their version configured first and a derivative is exported.

 

[Akim]

, auto-loader (rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute),

You can not untwist the physically horizontal AL him to do more than 8 loading. More faithful, untwisting him is possible, to reliability is - zero. The more so, more than 6 shots in a minute you will not do, even being in a defensive. And taking into account that in AL such type only 22 rounds, then to promote rapidity of fire quite dangerously. Better concentrated on exactness.

 

[sayareakd]

Dil Ko Behlane Ke Liye Ghalib Ye Khayal Acha Hai Ghalib :thumb:

 

[farhan_9909]

Anything beside Wiki ?

as much as you want.
The most reliable source is the official HIT brochure.posted few pages back


Al Khalid MBT-2000 / Type 2000 Main Battle Tank

The Al Khalid is fitted with a smooth bore gun of 125mm which can also fire missiles. Al-Khalid's main gun is 125mm smooth bore with autoloader. The unique feature of Al-Khalid is that it is equipped with auto tracker system. It also has hunter killer capability which can track and engage more than one targets while on the move. The tank can operate fully even during night with thermal imagery systems. Tank's maximum speed is upto 70km per hour.


Introduction


The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic Hunter Killer sight for all around independent surveillance. Both sights are bi-axis image stabilised and have independent laser range finders.

The commander has the ability of acquiring a target independently while the gunner is engaging a previously selected one.


Towards Self-reliance in Armaments - Lt Gen (Retd) SARDAR F.S. LODI


Jane's goes on to say. "Main armament is a 125mm smoothbore gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. This can fire APFSDS (muzzle velocity 1,760 m/s), HEAT (muzzle velocity 850m/s) and HE-FRAG (muzzle velocity 950 m/s). It can also fire a laser guided projectile fitted with a HEAT warhead. The gun is fed by an automatic loader enabling the crew to be reduced to three — commander, gunner and driver."

"The computerised fire-control system includes a bi-axis stabilised dual magnification gunners sight, bi-axis stabilised commanders sight with hunter killer capability, computer, commander's control panel, laser range-finder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor. This allows the Al-Khalid tank to engage moving targets under day and night conditions. The complete power pack, which consists of the engine, transmission and cooling system, can be removed from the vehicle in 30 minutes to facilitate field replacement."

 

[farhan_9909]

because of these expensive gadgets even the price of basic AK in 2001 was 2.6 millions

dont know Where would it stand now.
With the passage of time and even more expensive and lastest thermal imagers and other stuff in AK.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

commander with a panoramic Hunter Killer sight for all around independent surveillance. Both sights are bi-axis image stabilised and have independent laser range finders.

"The computerised fire-control system includes a bi-axis stabilised dual magnification gunners sight, bi-axis stabilised commanders sight with hunter killer capability, computer, commander's control panel, laser range-finder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor. This allows the Al-Khalid tank to engage moving targets under day and night conditions.

It does not say anything what is asked here :

Does AL-Khalid CITV have thermal / NV for night or not ?

------------------------------------------------

The links have no mention of what you are claiming here..

 

[Apollyon]

as much as you want.

"The computerised fire-control system includes a bi-axis stabilised dual magnification gunners sight, bi-axis stabilised commanders sight with hunter killer capability, computer, commander's control panel, laser range-finder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor.

Something like this ???????????