Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

farhan_9909

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Read this Atleast for 15 times and than LOOK AT the picture of dual magnification sight

Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual-magnification thermal imaging sight.
and if i Am not wrong than the thermal imagers are Catherine 2nd gen and i guess the Indian t90 also has the same

while the AK1 HAS the 3rd gen sagem thermal imagers(matis as on the leclerc )
 
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Damian

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I think You do not understand the point. You said that tank had night vision besides thermal sights, which is not truth. Tank have only day and thermal sights. Besides this, it might be just terminology issue, but in NATO, thermal sight is no seen as night vision device, but as universal day/night/low visibility sight, and day sight is seen as back up, in Pakistan it might be that thermal is used only in night, or perhaps not, it does not matters, what matters is that due to Your poor english, You seems to not understand the point of arguments of other person.
 

p2prada

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Whatever the case, at least it is established the AK-1 has day/night HK capability.
 

pankaj nema

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@ Farhan 9909

Mate it is nice to see you defending your indigenious tank AL Khalid against this
Polish gent Mr Damian who has a HUGE Superiority complex and is always criticising our
indigenious tank ARJUN which in itself is quite a LETHAL weapon

My best wishes to you
 

farhan_9909

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I think You do not understand the point. You said that tank had night vision besides thermal sights, which is not truth. Tank have only day and thermal sights. Besides this, it might be just terminology issue, but in NATO, thermal sight is no seen as night vision device, but as universal day/night/low visibility sight, and day sight is seen as back up, in Pakistan it might be that thermal is used only in night, or perhaps not, it does not matters, what matters is that due to Your poor english, You seems to not understand the point of arguments of other person.
since your proven wrong again and again from the past few days

now you dont have any other argument but rather calling other people as with less knowledge and poor English(i agree on this part but since i had done my education in madrassa medical college Peshawar and the taliban had imposed Shariah back than(1980's) so our course were in complete Arabia language


even i provided you a pic of al khalid in an exercise(night) and can provide another video Where al khalid was firing at night
 

farhan_9909

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@ Farhan 9909

Mate it is nice to see you defending your indigenious tank AL Khalid against this
Polish gent Mr Damian who has a HUGE Superiority complex and is always criticising our
indigenious tank ARJUN which in itself is quite a LETHAL weapon

My best wishes to you
while i agree he has more knowledge regarding tanks but he's too much confident over his knowledge

while i recently scrolled down my last comment and saw my Reply to biswas Where i used the word "both" :p
so i was Indeed wrong

but i didnot got completely What biswas meant and i just made a Reply and was busy aswell that time

well the problem is that he think the eastern tank being small size are inferior
while the smaller tank does has some advantage

such as the small size will make it hard for a western tank to hit them at longer distance
the autoloader though has smaller penetrator but are free of incident such as
same loading period even on a very rough terrain not the case with human loader
humans are prone to mistakes the round can fall from the loader due to recoil as well or can delay the process

and many more reasons and fast loading aswell


i think the ideal weight for any tank is 55 tonnes
 

Damian

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since your proven wrong again and again from the past few days
Where did I was proven wrong?

I said that it is not possible to have both thermal and night vision within single sighting system, due to space limitations not dependable on turret size. Neither Al Khalid have telescope sight as You said, everyone can back few bages back and see it.

Mate it is nice to see you defending your indigenious tank AL Khalid against this
Polish gent Mr Damian who has a HUGE Superiority complex and is always criticising our
indigenious tank ARJUN which in itself is quite a LETHAL weapon

My best wishes to you
pankaj nema You are nothing more than a kid to me, who have no knowledge about AFV's, and neither is capable to understand constructive criticism.

Such pseudo patriots like You both, are nothing more than amusing and insignificant trolls, who are unable to do any constructive discussion, based on facts, knowledge of vehicle design and constructive criticism. In fact such people are dangerous for their own countries and defense industry by their excitement and false belive that their weapon system is the best, or do not have any significant flaws, that should be known, criticized, improved later or in next design.

If any big tanks manufacturer would base his database on such people like both of You, there would have been no progress without many (to many) lifes sacrificed on the battlefields.

well the problem is that he think the eastern tank being small size are inferior
Wrong, size and weight have nothing to protection values of vehicle. There are other points I criticised many times, neither of You two, do anything to read and understand what I wrote.

such as the small size will make it hard for a western tank to hit them at longer distance
The small size didn't help Iraqi tanks, hidden in trenches against American tanks firing to them from distance of 2,000-3,000 meters, sometimes even as far as 4,000 meters, Challenger 1 hit small T-54/55 at a distance of 5,000 meters. Small size do not help much in times of modern digital fire control systems and laser range finders.

the autoloader though has smaller penetrator but are free of incident such as
same loading period even on a very rough terrain not the case with human loader
humans are prone to mistakes the round can fall from the loader due to recoil as well or can delay the process
Both loader and autoloader have advantages and disadvantages. What You said about human loader is not truth. Human loader is generally faster in loading than most autoloaders (especially the ones based on T-72 design, while also mistakes are avioded by humans by use of procedures of loading the gun.

In our Army we have both T-72M1/PT-91 and Leopard 2A4's, general opinion about tank crews that had opprotunity to serve on both tanks, is that human loaders is better than autoloader in T-72 series, similiar autoloader is used in Al Khalid.

The disadvantage of human loader is that it can be exhausted during prolonged time of fire exchange, and takes more space, than autoloader, making vehicle bigger and heavier.

i think the ideal weight for any tank is 55 tonnes
Only if it will represent the next generation with unmanned turret and crew inside hull, then while maintaining high levels of protection, by use of advanced armor and other means, we will be able to reduce vehicle weight to 50-55 tons, perhaps it can goes even further towards more flexible design with fully modular and scalable protection, but this is not easy task, demands alot of money, experience and solid scientific and industry base, so only the most rich and experienced in tank designing countries will be able to achieve this task in nearest future.
 
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farhan_9909

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Where did I was proven wrong?

I said that it is not possible to have both thermal and night vision within single sighting system, due to space limitations not dependable on turret size. Neither Al Khalid have telescope sight as You said, everyone can back few bages back and see it.



pankaj nema You are nothing more than a kid to me, who have no knowledge about AFV's, and neither is capable to understand constructive criticism.

Such pseudo patriots like You both, are nothing more than amusing and insignificant trolls, who are unable to do any constructive discussion, based on facts, knowledge of vehicle design and constructive criticism. In fact such people are dangerous for their own countries and defense industry by their excitement and false belive that their weapon system is the best, or do not have any significant flaws, that should be known, criticized, improved later or in next design.

If any big tanks manufacturer would base his database on such people like both of You, there would have been no progress without many (to many) lifes sacrificed on the battlefields.



Wrong, size and weight have nothing to protection values of vehicle. There are other points I criticised many times, neither of You two, do anything to read and understand what I wrote.



The small size didn't help Iraqi tanks, hidden in trenches against American tanks firing to them from distance of 2,000-3,000 meters, sometimes even as far as 4,000 meters, Challenger 1 hit small T-54/55 at a distance of 5,000 meters. Small size do not help much in times of modern digital fire control systems and laser range finders.



Both loader and autoloader have advantages and disadvantages. What You said about human loader is not truth. Human loader is generally faster in loading than most autoloaders (especially the ones based on T-72 design, while also mistakes are avioded by humans by use of procedures of loading the gun.

In our Army we have both T-72M1/PT-91 and Leopard 2A4's, general opinion about tank crews that had opprotunity to serve on both tanks, is that human loaders is better than autoloader in T-72 series, similiar autoloader is used in Al Khalid.

The disadvantage of human loader is that it can be exhausted during prolonged time of fire exchange, and takes more space, than autoloader, making vehicle bigger and heavier.



Only if it will represent the next generation with unmanned turret and crew inside hull, then while maintaining high levels of protection, by use of advanced armor and other means, we will be able to reduce vehicle weight to 50-55 tons, perhaps it can goes even further towards more flexible design with fully modular and scalable protection, but this is not easy task, demands alot of money, experience and solid scientific and industry base, so only the most rich and experienced in tank designing countries will be able to achieve this task in nearest future.
while all your those points are stupid as you claim things just from pictures
and you mostly dont agree with official manufacturer

do you have any video proof of challenger destroying and a confirm kill at 5km

all there are sure kids by western countries just as an moral booster
thank GOD the Russian usually dont over rate there stuff

new autoloader will be introduced in the near future as in the past Ukrainian bustle autoloader

and to let you know we are developing al khalid 2 with 55tonnes weight and as per dawn news 2 prototypes are developed but are not into trials stage now
– In early stages of development and believed to incorporate re-designed turret, Increase in weight, upgraded modular armour package and sensors, improved ammunition and new powerpack developing 1,500 hp.As of 2012 two prototypes are developed.
they might make public appearance in the November def expo
 

Kunal Biswas

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well the problem is that he think the eastern tank being small size are inferior
while the smaller tank does has some advantage
Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual-magnification thermal imaging sight. Both sights are integrated with the fire-control system.
You are completely clue less what he said so does you have no idea what i asked..

Do you understand what you see ?


panoramic sights with thermal cameras are rather big, like CITV, PNK-6 or PERI-R17A2.





Examples..


And here AL-Khalid CITV



------------------------
and you mostly dont agree with official manufacturer
while the AK1 HAS the 3rd gen sagem thermal imagers(matis as on the leclerc )
Catherine 2nd GEN thermal imagers




Well i dont think you here talking anything mentioned official..

There is no where mentioned what is claimed here..

As all of your claims are based on fan-boy rumors..
 

Damian

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while all your those points are stupid as you claim things just from pictures
Not only from pictures, contrary to You, my sources is also literature, military press as well as sometimes I have access to classified stuff.

and you mostly dont agree with official manufacturer
I have experience, that says, manufacturer not allways says stuff that is close to truth.

do you have any video proof of challenger destroying and a confirm kill at 5km
It is a known fact, later I will make scan from one of my books where it is mentioned, the only uncertain things are how many rounds were fired, and what type, sources close to RAC says rumors about APFSDS, other sources are more keen towards HESH.

all there are sure kids by western countries just as an moral booster
It have nothing to do with nationality, only by the level of argumentation and this silly pseudo patriotism when it comes to discussions about weapon systems.

thank GOD the Russian usually dont over rate there stuff
Neither there is such thing like a god or other divine creature, neither russians are better in this than anyone else, they are sometimes even worse with their black PR towards any competition, and agressive advertisement of their products.

new autoloader will be introduced in the near future as in the past Ukrainian bustle autoloader
But You know that means also bigger size and more weight to vehicle, that will not be spent on armor protection? This is very complex issue, when You add such thing to a vehicle that was not from scrach designed with such autoloader an ammunition storage in mind.

and to let you know we are developing al khalid 2 with 55tonnes weight and as per dawn news 2 prototypes are developed but are not into trials stage now
So what? In the same time all over the world new weapon systems are underdevelopment. Neither vehicle weight of 55 tons is something that makes it grate, there are other tactical and technical characteristics.

they might make public appearance in the November def expo
Good for Pakistan, but not important to other nations, neither it can be something that would meet any standards outside Pakistan or poorer countries.
 

Damian

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I must admitt, that I made a small mistake, most non official sources says about 5,000m shot of Challenger 1 towards T-55, however more credible sources I have in my possesion, says about 4,100m shot... of course it still does not change a fact that this is way over 100m over effective combat range of conventional unguided munitions (max 4,000m, beyond that, firing conventional munitions is considered as a waste of ammunition), and that small size of T-55 didn't help much.

However when I will have time I will ask British guys close to RAC (Royal Armoured Corps) if they have something more reliable from archieves.

And here the source:



Book is Challenger 1 Main Battle Tank 1982-1997 Osprey Publishing, by Simon Dunstan, a very well known and respected British writer, he have several books about british tanks, and is credible source, I think if someone will be lucky, can talk with him on TankNet.
 
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farhan_9909

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You are completely clue less what he said so does you have no idea what i asked..



Do you understand what you see ?









Examples..


And here AL-Khalid CITV



------------------------









Well i dont think you here talking anything mentioned official..

There is no where mentioned what is claimed here..

As all of your claims are based on fan-boy rumors..
lol again your confusing just to divest your point

which thing are you talking about?
Thermal sights?
 

farhan_9909

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I must admitt, that I made a small mistake, most non official sources says about 5,000m shot of Challenger 1 towards T-55, however more credible sources I have in my possesion, says about 4,100m shot... of course it still does not change a fact that this is way over 100m over effective combat range of conventional unguided munitions (max 4,000m, beyond that, firing conventional munitions is considered as a waste of ammunition), and that small size of T-55 didn't help much.

However when I will have time I will ask British guys close to RAC (Royal Armoured Corps) if they have something more reliable from archieves.

And here the source:



Book is Challenger 1 Main Battle Tank 1982-1997 Osprey Publishing, by Simon Dunstan, a very well known and respected British writer, he have several books about british tanks, and is credible source, I think if someone will be lucky, can talk with him on TankNet.
al khalid in ksa trials hit a target at 4000m

now i hope you dont say that my source is true and your wrong
 

farhan_9909

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source tanknet

A source from French THALES told KDR that Pakistan has signed the contract of importing 900 sets of Catherine-FC thermal imaging systems to be fitted on the Al-Khalid MBTs of the Pakistani Army. Delivery of these thermal imaging systems is expected to start in March 2007. As an integrated plan, the same type of thermal imaging systems will also be used to upgrade the T85IIAP MBTs currently in service. A source from HIT told KDR that the reason they did not choose the Chinese-made thermal imaging systems was that they did not meet the demands of the Pakistani Army.

Kanwa has learned that even the latest upgraded 99G MBTs use mechanical scanning thermal imaging system. Catherine-FC thermal imaging system works at 8-12μm band, weight smaller than 5.5kg, image resolution 754X576, wide field of view (WFOV) 9ºX6.7º, and narrow field of view (NFOV) 3ºX2.2º. Catherine-FC has a detection range of 10,000m for tanks, recognition range 4,500m, and identification range 2,300m.
 

farhan_9909

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one more upgrade on the AK is the latest combined drivers night vision sight
or in short

CODRIS-E
 

Kunal Biswas

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Tank guns can fire way beyond 3kms in indirect mode..

Nothing new about that..
 

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