ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[mokoman]

is the full article available . the quote being shared online is only part of the article .

better wait for official confirmation / denial . stalling the mk2 program to extract concession from US doesnt make much sense .

feel like this 'source' leak could be 5D chess to extract maximum possible from GE . actual program could be running smoothly.

Tejas Mk 2 languishes amid lack of funds

India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk 2 programme is languishing without funding, months after the project was approved by New Delhi.

www.janes.com

 

[piKacHHu]

Once the project gets sanctioned, multiple of head of accounts are generated under various categories for funding. I am sure that MkII project also had some funds allocated for Pre-project activity/R&D/development of jigs etc. under which non-engine related developments could go on.
Coming to the Engine part, it looks ridiculous that the GoI put the condition for 100% ToT for the GE-engine as getting this will involve diplomatic heavy-lifting from MEA and other stake-holders of inter governmental relationship between the US & India. Why to sanction the project at first place when ToT is not done - that would have been the first question that will strike the CCS while deliberating on the approval of MkII.
Setting aside all shenanigans/conspiracy theory, IMO, it looks more like Modi govt. trapped the ADA on its own pitch for producing GE-414 engines locally to power MKII. Unfortunately, ADA has no choice other than GE-414 around which it has designed the MKII so they have to close agreement with GE with whatever ToT they are offering for assembly of GE engines in India.
This reminds me of MP-ATGM project which were close enough of getting signed in favor of Spike ATGM with local assembly with some private player. Some esteemed scientists of DRDO, while attending DAC circa 2017-18 has promised to develop similar indigenous ATGM solution within 2 years as an alternate of Spike. The SPIKE was ultimately purchased off-the-shelf in 2019-2020 through Emergency purchase and we are yet to see indiIgenous MP-ATGM fully developed and poised for induction into armed forces. The trials are still going on & on. I hope that ATGM saga will not repeat this time for MkII.
What we need, in the likes of National Semi-conductor mission etc., a similar program for development of indigenous fighter program with dedicated funding separate from IAF/defence budget just as in case of other strategic programs. And Tejas MkII fits the bill as it will be a standard 4++ fighter suitable for air patrolling and interdiction missions and it will not involve herculean exercise as in case of developing a true 5th Gen fighter. Just produce the MkII in numbers and let the ecosystem of suppliers from private industry develop which will be useful for other advanced fighter programs.

 

[abingdonboy]

If the US agrees then the whole picture you painted ceases to exist. There is a fairly reasonable chance it will happen. That's my hypothesis and since there is no newer "information" it is as much a possibility as your outlook.

yes but in the much more likely scenario that the US doesn’t part with tech that it hasn’t even provided to its treaty allies then my ‘doomsday’ scenario is the case.

regardless the existence of such a clause is delaying the MK.2 even if india eventually gets its way, as S.Jha confirmed the disbursement of funds from the GoI for MK.2 hasn’t occurred since the CCS sanction ~6 months ago, why are ADA/HAL already pushing back rollout and first flight dates?

the whole setup is for these projects to fail

 

[abingdonboy]

is the full article available . the quote being shared online is only part of the article .

better wait for official confirmation / denial . stalling the mk2 program to extract concession from US doesnt make much sense .

feel like this 'source' leak could be 5D chess to extract maximum possible from GE . actual program could be running smoothly.

Tejas Mk 2 languishes amid lack of funds

India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk 2 programme is languishing without funding, months after the project was approved by New Delhi.

www.janes.com

Imagine believing the US/GE care about a Janes article, there’s exactly 0 pressure on them to concede to India’s demands

almost everything under DTTI that was first proposed never materialised as the Indian side demanded too much IP and localisation, so the Indian side only upped the ante and made the funding of their own domestic platforms contingent on the US being more flexible than it ever has, at best this is the worst calculation of all time by indian planners

 

[abingdonboy]

Sure! continue to live in the 2000s! You are stuck in a time warp when India got the short end of the stick each and every time.

india needs the US a LOT more than the US needs India

yes india is not the same as it was in 2000s but it is also not in any position to be dictating terms to the US of all countries especially for something like this (engine IP)

we are just going around in circles, you seem to think the US will accept Indian terms, I simply don’t and I think there’s ample precedent to support that whilst you are merely hoping.

im pretty sure in even 5 years the US’s position will be the same

none of this addresses the sheer lunacy of attaching funding for the MK.2 to an external factor (US accepting IP demands), that is pure maliciousness and there’s no reasonable explanation for it. Demand IP if you like but why stall your own projects until that happens? That’s the ridiculous part

 

[MonaLazy]

we are just going around in circles, you seem to think the US will accept Indian terms, I simply don’t and I think there’s ample precedent to support that whilst you are merely hoping.

No, not merely hoping. I have my own reasons, just as you have yours, to conclude US will give us everything we want. Death of jet engine jwg under DTTI was phase 1 of this tussle. It was important for US to realise we won't settle for less. Then there was resurrection as iCET which again talks of jet engine tech transfer as a strategic/political push. Why would they indulge in such a fruitless outcome if the intent was to not share tech?

im pretty sure in even 5 years the US’s position will be the same

You are free to believe whatever you want. I'm not in on it. Let's agree to disagree for now.

attaching funding for the MK.2 to an external factor (US accepting IP demands)

I won't call it stalling, rather, this is putting all our programs on a firm footing. If US exits the engine partnership at this stage the door is well and truly shut on them. That is progress- we can't keep going back and forth on this - getting nowhere ultimately. On the other hand if they agree, sky is the limit.

 

[MonaLazy]

Imagine believing the US/GE care

Imagine believing they don't care about loss of billions and billions of dollars! They are capitalists, aren't they?

American GE working with India on jet engines for LCA, AMCA

US GE is open to the transfer of technology to India for the indigenous manufacture of engines for light combat aircraft LCA Mark2 by 2028 as it does not want to lose a big market o Europe.

m.economictimes.com

"The matter was discussed during our NSA (Ajit Doval's) recent US visit. The US government said it was open to it (indigenous manufacture of engines). Hopefully, in the next 3-6 months, an announcement of the transfer of technology will happen and these engines would be made in the country itself," he said

 

[shade]

I am banging my head after reading this insane clause of linking foreign engine TOT to domestic fighter project. How can one be so vacuous? US would deny it till the date we are left with no option but to import foreign jets
If the report is true then somebody at the very top is in bed with import lobby

Looks like in a war we will be stuck with (((emergency procurements))) like the Ukranis are, this is especially bad for the airforce

 

[abingdonboy]

Imagine believing they don't care about loss of billions and billions of dollars! They are capitalists, aren't they?

American GE working with India on jet engines for LCA, AMCA

US GE is open to the transfer of technology to India for the indigenous manufacture of engines for light combat aircraft LCA Mark2 by 2028 as it does not want to lose a big market o Europe.

m.economictimes.com

The US pulled the F35 contract with Turkey over the S400 drama so of course they are not merely interested in $$$ but their supreme national interest also (as all great powers will be)

Just because india keeps bringing up ToT for engine tech doesn’t mean they are interested, haven’t they been ‘3-6 months’ away from the MQ-9B deal for about 3 years now?

all we can do is wait and see, the utter failure of even 1 DTTI initiative to get off the ground in the last 10 years is ample proof that an immovable object has met an unstoppable force. If India could pull it off obviously that’s a win but there’s no reason to assume they will.

and AGAIN none of this justified linking MK.2 funding to the Americans giving india what it wants

 

[shade]

Imagine believing they don't care about loss of billions and billions of dollars! They are capitalists, aren't they?

American GE working with India on jet engines for LCA, AMCA

US GE is open to the transfer of technology to India for the indigenous manufacture of engines for light combat aircraft LCA Mark2 by 2028 as it does not want to lose a big market o Europe.

m.economictimes.com

The only way this works is if they tie the Engine ToT with purchase of some 114 MRFA start spangled jets like F-15EX /F-18 from Uncle Sam( or Frenchies Rafale and their Safran/Snecma engines ), just the engine purchase itself is not that big of a bait.

Even with this you won't get the full ToT to build the 414 from scratch, jet engine tech is the crown jewel of these 5 countries, if you want full build from scratch capability, GoI will have to sanction a hefty budget and hire top talent to build a new design, upgrade Kaveri or clone the 414, the Chings did this so we can too
Maybe.

 

[johnj]

We hv enough time to sign a deal.
With 16 engines as you said it's enough to build and certify a prototype and come to a deal but news like this clause gives a huge leverage to GE and murica that's what is astonishing.
5 years are more than enough to come to a deal.
Also if the news are to be trusted and funds are not cleared till now then previous statement that HAL is using mk1A fund to work on Mk2 is true which brings us to our main culprits the babus and the govt.
How do we expect Turkish levels of development or something on similar levels when babus are sitting and not allowing/allowing meagre funds to flow to HAL/DRDO/ADA.
And then people cry how DRDO bad ADA/HAL bad and private companies do better.

Deal already singed in 2013 and ge already delivered first lots of engine & applied US Gov permission to share tech to HAL. India Gov already paid initial cost for engine & tech, and for initial design phase ie CDR -
Now I don't seeing any issue in GE/USA side becz tot only useful once ADA complete IOC development, means minimum 6 years timeframe.
What is the issue here ? Goi not giving money to ADA ? or USA made any official announcement about - sharing zero tech to India ? Both are two different cases and its the job of GE to get US approval not India/GoI.
IF GOI STOPPED FUNDING TO LCA MK2, then it is due to internal issues, issue related to GoI, ADA, HAL, IAF or partners related to lca pgrm.

 

[johnj]

The only way this works is if they tie the Engine ToT with purchase of some 114 MRFA start spangled jets like F-15EX /F-18 from Uncle Sam( or Frenchies Rafale and their Safran/Snecma engines ), just the engine purchase itself is not that big of a bait.

Even with this you won't get the full ToT to build the 414 from scratch, jet engine tech is the crown jewel of these 5 countries, if you want full build from scratch capability, GoI will have to sanction a hefty budget and hire top talent to build a new design, upgrade Kaveri or clone the 414, the Chings did this so we can too
Maybe.

Its a done deal, if US back off, which is illegal, GE gets sanctioned by GoI and loose all business including civilian ones and may be Airbus gets all Tata orders and end of Quad, India US defense relations
ADA can replace GE with ej200 [mk2] & rd93 [mk1].

If GoI links MRFA WITH engine core techs then more rafale with 110KN jv.

 

[shade]

Its a done deal, if US back off, which is illegal, GE gets sanctioned by GoI and loose all business including civilian ones and may be Airbus gets all Tata orders and end of Quad, India US defense relations
ADA can replace GE with ej200 [mk2] & rd93 [mk1].

If GoI links MRFA WITH engine core techs then more rafale with 110KN jv.

Source for this? also the M83 that is used in Rafale isn't enough for Tejas so they have to build a new engine in a JV?
Also the way you've described I doubt GoI will go that far, this is a Supa Powa we're dealing with.

Can we use the Su30 AL31 engine for Tejas mk2? I don't know much about fighter jets so just asking.
I know we have a facility in Odisha where AL31 engines are made, ofc Russkies have the keys to this kingdom but since it's been there for quite long, perhaps some clandestine reverse engineering programs were carried out?

 

[johnj]

Source for this? also the M83 that is used in Rafale isn't enough for Tejas so they have to build a new engine in a JV?
Also the way you've described I doubt GoI will go that far, this is a Supa Powa we're dealing with.

Can we use the Su30 AL31 engine for Tejas mk2? I don't know much about fighter jets so just asking.
I know we have a facility in Odisha where AL31 engines are made, ofc Russkies have the keys to this kingdom but since it's been there for quite long, perhaps some clandestine reverse engineering programs were carried out?

ge-f414-engines-selected-power-india-light-combat-aircraft-program
also read the first pages of the thread.
AL31 - No - its heavy & need more thrust for 4.5gen craft, and not reliable like ge or rr ones
No reverse engineering so far with out Russian knowledge

FYI- Stopping/halting funds or taking a long time for release funds is nothing new, its just normal, ""a small tea break for ADA till 2025 due to 2024 elections ""

 

[MonaLazy]

The US pulled the F35 contract with Turkey over the S400 drama so of course they are not merely interested in $$$ but their supreme national interest also (as all great powers will be)

Again it is their supreme national interest which will guide them to transfer everything on F414 manufacturing to us. This is two decades old tech for them and they have already realised next generation advent engines and started work on its next generation- RDEs. But I'm not expecting you to come around right away.

I don't believe in comparisons but since you mentioned Turkey and their attempt to buy F-35. Let me ask you why we are discussing a possible F-35 sale even after India acquired S-400? India and Turkey aren't equals. The case you make simply doesn't hold water.

 

[singhboy98]

ge-f414-engines-selected-power-india-light-combat-aircraft-program
also read the first pages of the thread.
AL31 - No - its heavy & need more thrust for 4.5gen craft, and not reliable like ge or rr ones
No reverse engineering so far with out Russian knowledge

FYI- Stopping/halting funds or taking a long time for release funds is nothing new, its just normal, ""a small tea break for ADA till 2025 due to 2024 elections ""

Kya baat hai. Linking projects of strategic/national importance to General Elections. Excellent going. Next up, DRDO LRDE on chai break due to General Elections.

 

[Delta Squad]

Deal already singed in 2013 and ge already delivered first lots of engine & applied US Gov permission to share tech to HAL. India Gov already paid initial cost for engine & tech, and for initial design phase ie CDR -
Now I don't seeing any issue in GE/USA side becz tot only useful once ADA complete IOC development, means minimum 6 years timeframe.
What is the issue here ? Goi not giving money to ADA ? or USA made any official announcement about - sharing zero tech to India ? Both are two different cases and its the job of GE to get US approval not India/GoI.
IF GOI STOPPED FUNDING TO LCA MK2, then it is due to internal issues, issue related to GoI, ADA, HAL, IAF or partners related to lca pgrm.

The issue is nothing severe, the Biden administration is reviewing what ToT is being given so that it does not compromise their IPR. USA is ready to give the manufacturing ToT atleast, but not share the IPR.
Also, issue I recently saw is the Biden administration is asking for a concrete answer on how many engines would be procured. For this, the IAF will have to come clean and decide how many fighters of which category will be procured and all those "may", "probably", "in future possibility" is not going to work.

 

[johnj]

Kya baat hai. Linking projects of strategic/national importance to General Elections. Excellent going. Next up, DRDO LRDE on chai break due to General Elections.

Its a joke, and money/funds are limited and release once all requirements were met.
General Elections is a big process & MP/Ministers also a part of this process , hence delay is not a big deal, also this project is not having a strategic/national importance like agni/prithvi or lca mk1.

 

[johnj]

The issue is nothing severe, the Biden administration is reviewing what ToT is being given so that it does not compromise their IPR. USA is ready to give the manufacturing ToT atleast, but not share the IPR.
Also, issue I recently saw is the Biden administration is asking for a concrete answer on how many engines would be procured. For this, the IAF will have to come clean and decide how many fighters of which category will be procured and all those "may", "probably", "in future possibility" is not going to work.

In that case GE can say goodbye to multi billion Indian markets or hope/pray for new administration.
IAF is not god to predict 100% future ,only god knows how may engines. Total no.of engines depends on multiple factors, including amca, tedbf, further order of mk2 all these are unpredictable and total independent of IAF. Biden administration want to shut down all Indian Ofbs, DPSUs & drdo etc, according to your comment.
FYI- total no.of engines already mentioned in the deal, ie 99.

 

[Delta Squad]

In that case GE can say goodbye to multi billion Indian markets or hope/pray for new administration.
IAF is not god to predict 100% future ,only god knows how may engines. Total no.of engines depends on multiple factors, including amca, tedbf, further order of mk2 all these are unpredictable and total independent of IAF. Biden administration want to shut down all Indian Ofbs, DPSUs & drdo etc, according to your comment.
FYI- total no.of engines already mentioned in the deal, ie 99.

Currently trying to find the article where I have read the second part