ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[abingdonboy]

Anyone who does not believe that the Mk-2 project (thus the AMCA by extension) is not under existential threat is living in a la-la land. Anyone who knows how the powers of corridors in Delhi work will know that the steps to smother the Mk-2 project have started. The Military bureaucracy (includes uniforms & babus) has decided that the AMCA will NOT happen. Do unless our Raksha Mantri really teaches a mean and a vindictive lesson to the traitors, this project is not happening. Think again, the Mk-2 is not the intended target, the AMCA is. The Mk-2 is what you call "collateral damage".

It’s frustrating to see some working backwards- assuming everything is fine and then creating fantasies to justify current BS.

if you connect the dots logically the outcome is inevitable- the post LCA MK1/1A aerospace projects are effectively dead already.

or to look at it another way, if your intention was to make LCA MK.2/AMCA unviable,how would you go about it? What is now emerging seems exactly how any malicious Actor would do it without explicitly stating they wanted the projects dead

Once these projects are terminally delayed and the usual crying and outrage is attached to them there ‘emergency procurement’ games begin

post 2024 watch IAF start ramping up this circus, it’ll start with MRFA but within 5 years they’ll be demanding an off the shelf 5th gen platform

 

[abingdonboy]

Well then wait for the full picture to emerge. Dont form half baked opinions based on only recent news.

If these projects are wrapping up Dr Deodhare will let us know. Since he is quiet, we should shut up too.

1) half baked opinions? It’s not an opinion that has been given but a report based on factual clauses

2) these projects won’t be ‘wrapped up’, they’ll limp on for at least another decade missing every single deadline along the way- starve them of funds after delaying their official sanction and you’ve already mortally wounded them before they’ve even started. The game isn’t to kill then off outright- that’s not doable without having to face some scrutiny. The agenda is to make them so toxic and infeasible that other alternatives have to be explored.

I thought this was only going to be an issue on the front end (IAF downsizing projected numbers in real time), I wasn’t expecting the Narendra Modi GoI to fundamentally sabotage these projects on the backend but the crumbs were there (especially on the AMCA).

I’m now expecting the knives for ALH (NUH),LUH, LCH and IMRH to be sharpened. The world’s biggest importer tag wasn’t about to go anywhere

 

[singhboy98]

1) half baked opinions? It’s not an opinion that has been given but a report based on factual clauses

2) these projects won’t be ‘wrapped up’, they’ll limp on for at least another decade missing every single deadline along the way- starve them of funds after delaying their official sanction and you’ve already mortally wounded them before they’ve even started. The game isn’t to kill then off outright- that’s not doable without having to face some scrutiny. The agenda is to make them so toxic and infeasible that other alternatives have to be explored.

I thought this was only going to be an issue on the front end (IAF downsizing projected numbers in real time), I wasn’t expecting the Narendra Modi GoI to fundamentally sabotage these projects on the backend but the crumbs were there (especially on the AMCA).

I’m now expecting the knives for ALH (NUH),LUH, LCH and IMRH to be sharpened. The world’s biggest importer tag wasn’t about to go anywhere

Well, in hindsight, the signs were always there. What you are referring to as a "front end problem" is actually the sign of a political executive not in full control of the permanent executive. I hope that this sabotage at the highest level is that of omission rather than that of commission. South Block babus (uniforms and safari suits both) are famous for bringing ministers to heel in the manner of a python squeezing the life out of its prey. This is where Shri Parrikar (no one deserves a Bharat Ratna more than him IMHO), overwhelmed these Arts duffers (no offense to Arts graduates) through sheer brainpower only like a highly intelligent engineer (IIT Bombay pedigree IIRC) can. The Mk-1A and whatever progress we saw in the artillery corps is directly attributable to him.

All that being said, I am thinking of a last ditch effort as a citizen and a voter. I would like to draft a coherent yet succinct 500 word letter highlighting the present status of the Mk-2 programme and the strategic blunder which is in making by the military bureaucracy. I will send it by email (and by registered post if I can) to every one upwards from Joint Secretary (Air Acquisition) till the PMO and also the Rashtrapati Bhavan. I plan to do so before 15th July. Any members who could provide some inputs and help towards the same are welcome to do so.

 

[MonaLazy]

1) half baked opinions? It’s not an opinion that has been given but a report based on factual clauses

What the hell??? "Factual clauses" when even that gentleman who is your "source" was not as gullible! Beginning his tweet with an "If this is true.."

Everything else you posted is GIGO. Your input, the so called facts, is garbage.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well, in hindsight, the signs were always there. What you are referring to as a "front end problem" is actually the sign of a political executive not in full control of the permanent executive. I hope that this sabotage at the highest level is that of omission rather than that of commission. South Block babus (uniforms and safari suits both) are famous for bringing ministers to heel in the manner of a python squeezing the life out of its prey. This is where Shri Parrikar (no one deserves a Bharat Ratna more than him IMHO), overwhelmed these Arts duffers (no offense to Arts graduates) through sheer brainpower only like a highly intelligent engineer (IIT Bombay pedigree IIRC) can. The Mk-1A and whatever progress we saw in the artillery corps is directly attributable to him.

All that being said, I am thinking of a last ditch effort as a citizen and a voter. I would like to draft a coherent yet succinct 500 word letter highlighting the present status of the Mk-2 programme and the strategic blunder which is in making by the military bureaucracy. I will send it by email (and by registered post if I can) to every one upwards from Joint Secretary (Defense Acquisition) till the PMO and also the Rashtrapati Bhavan. I plan to do so before 15th July. Any members who could provide some inputs and help towards the same are welcome to do so.

ATAGS, Arjun, LCA, AMCA etc etc are all victims of the same deeply connected interest body.

the longer you watch these things the more they make sense, witnessing individual projects stumble is the symptom and not the cause. Looking backwards it’s apparent what the agenda has always been

 

[abingdonboy]

What the hell??? "Factual clauses" when even that gentleman who is your "source" was not as gullible! Beginning his tweet with an "If this is true.."

Everything else you posted is GIGO. Your input, the so called facts, is garbage.

Whatever man, I don’t see you actually refuting the evidence just having an emotional outburst.

I sincerely hope your optimism is well founded but it feels as though it’s more based on hopefulness than reality.

we can only react based on emerging information, don’t just wish

 

[singhboy98]

What the hell??? "Factual clauses" when even that gentleman who is your "source" was not as gullible! Beginning his tweet with an "If this is true.."

Everything else you posted is GIGO. Your input, the so called facts, is garbage.

Arre bhai, why this needless blue on blue ad hominem attacks? Everything that has been said on this episode so far is premised on the Janes report being true. If it isn't, then eat some Ladoos on my behalf. But having observed this space from Class 9 onwards (the dreaded Saint Anthony era as someone classified it), I can't but assume the worst.

 

[MonaLazy]

Whatever man, I don’t see you actually refuting the evidence just having an emotional outburst.

I sincerely hope your optimism is well founded but it feels as though it’s more based on hopefulness than reality.

we can only react based on emerging information, don’t just wish

The onus is on you to prove your hypothesis. The only person having an emotional outburst here is you. I am calling out your shaky sources- which is an unverified screenshot any random xyz could have put together, prove me wrong. If you can't then stop spreading your depressing theory.

episode so far is premised on the Janes report being true.

The report could very much be true. I am saying it works for us. But i am not aligned with the "this was done to sabotage everything" outcome. This was done to infact put all our future programs on a firm footing. There is reasonable chance the US will give in to Indian demands.

How do we win if we do not even try??

screenshot is from an article that appeared in janes

Oh I see now, but the certainty with which you stated your dooms day prediction made me believe that was the exact thing mentioned in that screen grab!

So then I'm disputing your conclusion based on the same facts. There is no way in heaven or hell this will kill our fighter programs of the future.

If the US agrees then the whole picture you painted ceases to exist. There is a fairly reasonable chance it will happen. That's my hypothesis and since there is no newer "information" it is as much a possibility as your outlook.

 

[Vamsi]

Anyone who does not believe that the Mk-2 project (thus the AMCA by extension) is not under existential threat is living in a la-la land. Anyone who knows how the powers of corridors in Delhi work will know that the steps to smother the Mk-2 project have started. The Military bureaucracy (includes uniforms & babus) has decided that the AMCA will NOT happen. Hence, unless our Raksha Mantri really teaches a mean and a vindictive lesson to the traitors, this project is not happening. Think again, the Mk-2 is not the intended target, the AMCA is. The Mk-2 is what you call "collateral damage".

P.S: Its funny how one's entire perspective can change in a matter of months. If someone would have told me in February 2023 that the Mk-2 program will meet the HF-24 fate, I would have laughed him/her out of the room. How things change🥲

the day IAF demanded an unobtanium engine for AMCA, that day itself AMCA is dead, whatever else happening right now is just poetry......they knew that GTRE doesn't have capability to develop the said engine & have to beg around the world & goras wouldn't give us the tech, despite all knowing this, they demanded unobtanium engine

 

[abingdonboy]

The onus is on you to prove your hypothesis. The only person having an emotional outburst here is you. I am calling out your shaky sources- which is an unverified screenshot any random xyz could have put together, prove me wrong. If you can't then stop spreading your depressing theory.

You realise that screenshot is from an article that appeared in janes (one of the most credible defence outlets in the world), yes you may say they have been less than reliable on Indian matters in recent times (which does seem to be the case given their new Indian hires) but that doesn’t change the fact that Suarav Jha has effectively confirmed this issue (CCS funds starved to MK.2 project)

no point in continuing this back and forth as you aren’t really adding anything other than screaming at me I’m wrong, I’d absolutely love for you to refute me with credible and fact based information trust me. Instead all I see is immature refusals to absorb new information

 

[abingdonboy]

the day IAF demanded an unobtanium engine for AMCA, that day itself AMCA is dead, whatever else happening right now is just poetry......they knew that GTRE doesn't have capability to develop the said engine & have to beg around the world & goras wouldn't give us the tech, despite all knowing this, they demanded unobtanium engine

This post is poetry, succinctly stating the entire debacle

India, always the country of tomorrow

 

[abingdonboy]

The report could very much be true. I am saying it works for us. But i am not aligned with the "this was done to sabotage everything" outcome. This was done to infact put all our future programs on a firm footing. There is reasonable chance the US will give in to Indian demands.

How do we win if we do not even try??

Report might be true but it’s still okay is the epitome of copoium

so you concede that no engine ToT= no funding of LCA MK.2 beyond a point (they’ve already had to rely mainly on internal funds thus far and that’s severely limiting capacity and pace)

So your entire case rests on the US, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, providing engine tech to a non-NATO, non-treaty ally of the US with a questionable human rights record (as per the US’s own rankings). And that too under a Democratic (and woke) administration and knowing that any such agreement would have to be passed by US congress.

sorry I don’t like to get personal on here but you’re not a serious person if you go along with all this. You’re merely hoping

 

[MonaLazy]

Report might be true but it’s still okay is the epitome of copoium

Sure! continue to live in the 2000s! You are stuck in a time warp when India got the short end of the stick each and every time.

so you concede that no engine ToT= no funding of LCA MK.2

There is no concession here. I am happy about this position to avoid future arm twisting.

So your entire case rests on the US providing engine tech

Yes. Without hyperventilating. An unemotional cool calm resounding yes! We are transitioning from unipolar to tripolar world. Who do you think US wants on its side?

Until the ink dries on any F414 manufacture your prediction is as good as mine. Then why resort to childish barbs like copium and hopium? If you are hopeless then that is your problem but via this forum it is amplified & contagious and that has me worried. So I will call out your bull$hit again.

In the unlikely chance US does not agree, we need back up. My only urge is we need to start on those plans now.

 

[Truthsoldier]

I am banging my head after reading this insane clause of linking foreign engine TOT to domestic fighter project. How can one be so vacuous? US would deny it till the date we are left with no option but to import foreign jets
If the report is true then somebody at the very top is in bed with import lobby

 

[singhboy98]

Sure! continue to live in the 2000s! You are stuck in a time warp when India got the short end of the stick each and every time.



There is no concession here. I am happy about this position to avoid future arm twisting.



Yes. Without hyperventilating. An unemotional cool calm resounding yes! We are transitioning from unipolar to tripolar world. Who do you think US wants on its side?

Until the ink dries on any F414 manufacture your prediction is as good as mine. Then why resort to childish barbs like copium and hopium? If you are hopeless then that is your problem but via this forum it is amplified & contagious and that has me worried. So I will call out your bull$hit again.

IMHO, you are missing the point of this discussion. Yes, you can play the game of poker with the Americans however long you want to. Bargaining hard is a part of international relations and treaty negotiations. But what you don't do (which someone has done if the Janes report is true) is to premise your WHOLE indigenous aircraft industry on the whims of a third party. Unless I am mistaken, the Janes report claims that the government has refused to release the R&D funding (not the manufacturing mind you, the Mk-2 program will not get to that step unless that 6000 crore is disbursed first. So the whole "we have 5 years" argument does not make any sense) for the Mk-2 project (the actual disbursement) unless the AMERICANS guarantee ToT in the F414. This essentially places ADA/HAL in dock for something they have no control over. The negotiations would be the domain of a dedicated MoD team which would include Financial Advisors, Air Force advisors, DRDO advisors as well as some industry representatives.

As a LOT of technologies (the propulsion is just one aspect) which have been envisaged for the AMCA hinge on being validated on the Mk-2 first, if the Mk-2 development itself is stuck in a limbo, the AMCA program will forever remain on paper. That is why the sincere consternation among some of us on this thread.

 

[MonaLazy]

Yes, you can play the game of poker with the Americans

The poker moniker you placed on US-India ties is apt. I think as citizenery we need to be patient and support our organizations and government through several rounds of such high stakes poker. If you can't stomach it, then leave the table for the big boys.

 

[DumbPilot]

the day IAF demanded an unobtanium engine for AMCA, that day itself AMCA is dead, whatever else happening right now is just poetry......they knew that GTRE doesn't have capability to develop the said engine & have to beg around the world & goras wouldn't give us the tech, despite all knowing this, they demanded unobtanium engine

What unobtanium man? Or do you want to install some shitty engines in the AMCA that can't power it kinematically and electrically?

 

[Abtron3]

Whole thing sounds like either Indian government and armed forces are corrupt to the souls or retarded beyond imagination maybe both.
If report is true then Only option left is to start making Tejas mk2 prototype with other engine options with safran and RR.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

even under ToT we will be still dependent on Americans for hot section if not the entire engine , so ToT is no different from direct purchase, this ToT is just screwdrivergiri

I dont really care about full TOT, which is a bit unrealistic TBH. But I want us to be able to make the maintainance parts here by ourself from raw material stage, atleast keep the fleet running even if we cant manufacture more jets.

 

[Truthsoldier]

I am banging my head after reading this insane clause of linking foreign engine TOT to domestic fighter project. How can one be so vacuous? US would deny it till the date we are left with no option but to import foreign jets
If the report is true then somebody at the very top is in bed with import lobby

Maybe it is time to run counter intelligence programme around MoD to nab recent DRDO-lab-director type chaps