ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[jai jaganath]

Eurasian times article similar to idrw, ie less reliable.
Biggest joke is - US giving 100% tot including hot section & 99 engines under 1 billion $.

Atmost usa can give ToT of manufacturing tech not design tech

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Eurasian times article similar to idrw, ie less reliable.
Biggest joke is - US giving 100% tot including hot section & 99 engines under 1 billion $.

100% tot just means 100% of whatever is the agreement not like whole engine tech

 

[mokoman]

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-funding-crunch-indias-lca-tejas-mk2-in-a-limbo-over/

No Funding Crunch, India’s LCA Tejas MK2 ‘In A Limbo’ Over ToT Approval; PM Modi’s US Visit Could Seal The Deal


ByGuest Author

May 14, 2023
The development of India’s indigenous LCA Mk2 fighter jets will begin after ToT (transfer of technology) is signed with the US engine manufacturing company GE Aviation.
Next month’s visit of Prime Narendra Modi to the White House is likely to churn the momentum of the deal, EurAsian Times has learned.
India’s medium-weight fighter (MWF), LCA Mk2, is an advanced version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk1A, which is being used by the Indian Air Force (IAF).
The LCA Tejas series has been designed and developed by India’s government subsidiary Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), in active participation with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). LCA jets are manufactured in the Bengaluru facility of HAL.
Last year in September (2022), Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved a sum of Rs 10,000 crore ($1.2B) for the development of the LCA Tejas MK2 project, which included prototype development and flight testing.
“This sum for the LCA MK2 project was sanctioned from the Defence Budget of the Ministry of Defence (MoD)”, said a top functionary involved in the project. “So there has been no crunch of funds, but the issue which has stalled the project is 100 percent Transfer of Technology (TOT) of the GE 414 engines from the US”, a top functionary at HAL told EurAsian Times.
LCA Mk2 is pitched to be 4.5 generation aircraft with a weight heavier than the LCA Mk1A. With a weight of 7.8 tons, LCA Mk2 is slated to carry a payload (weapons) of 6.5 tonnes.
While LCA Mk1A has 08 weapons pods, Mk2 aircraft has 11 weapons pods. HAL plans to weaponize Mk2 with indigenous missiles like Astra and Rudram beside French Meteor, Mica, and Scalp. MK2, when developed, is likely to replace IAF’s aging squadrons of Mirage 2000 and Jaguars fighter jets.
LCA MK2 jets are to be powered by GE-F414 INS6 engines of the US giant GE Aviation. The company is ‘willing’ to manufacture GE-414 engines in India under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s flagship program of ‘Make In India.’

The proposal is learned to have been pending before the US Congress now. India needs at least 99 such F414 engines for Mk2 aircraft. In 2021, HAL signed a deal worth Rs 5375 crores ($650M) for procuring 99 F404 engines from GE Aviation for LCA Tejas Mk1A aircraft.
Last month US Congressman Ro Khanna, on his visit to India, told the media that the deal for the ToT is likely to be done before PM Modi’s visit to the US, which is scheduled to be in the month of June.
As per the White House, PM Modi will attend a dinner hosted by President Joe Biden on June 22 at his official residence during the US visit.
View attachment 204921
File Image: Modi & Biden
In January this year, National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval visited the US to attend the inaugural meeting of the initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET) with his counterpart Jake Sullivan. iCET was announced by PM Modi and President Biden in the year 2022.
After the January meeting between Doval and Sullivan, the White House issued a ‘fact sheet’ on Indo-US cooperation in the field of technology.
It read, “Developing a new bilateral Defense Industrial Cooperation Roadmap to accelerate technological cooperation between both countries for the joint development and production, with an initial focus on exploring projects related to jet engines, munition-related technologies, and other systems.”
It further mentioned about GE’s request, “Noting the United States has received an application from General Electric to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India. The United States commits to an expeditious review of this application.”
“Take the case of India’s first indigenous fighter jet project Marut (of the 60s), which failed primarily due to its engine. It was a well-designed and very capable aircraft, but the project doomed as the engine was not indigenous”, says Dr. Ravi Gupta, an Ex Scientist of DRDO.
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is India’s leading defense establishment owned by the government and involved in the R&D of tanks, artillery guns, bombs, and missiles. ADA, which is involved in the design and development of the LCA Tejas series, is owned by DRDO.

View attachment 204920
The Indian Air Force Tejas performs at the opening ceremony of the Singapore Air Show on February 15, 2022.
“So, if the LCA Mk2 project needs to be successful, its engine should be fully indigenous”, Dr. Gupta told EurAsian Times, emphasizing 100 percent ToT of GE-414 engines to India.
ADA and HAL had initially planned to develop the LCA Mk2 by the end of this year, i.e., by 2023, and production from 2025. But with the ToT issue still pending, the project will be delayed like the earlier versions of LCA Tejas and LCA Tejas Mk1A.
While presently, IAF operates 02 squadrons of basic Tejas aircraft, MoD had ordered 83 Mk1A fighters too.
ADA and HAL are working on the design and development of the 5th generation stealth fighter jet, AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft). The government aviation agencies need engines for AMCA too.
With the big demand for engines for indigenous fighters, the Modi-led Indian Government wants to manufacture these engines in India under the ‘Atma-Nirbhar’ (self-reliance) policy of New Delhi.
“There are numerous global aviation companies that manufacture fighter jets, but few have developed aircraft engines because the design and development of an aircraft engine is far more complicated than the design of an aircraft,” says Dr. Gupta. “If GE-414 engines are manufactured under ToT, India will be a world competitor for the design of aircraft engines”, he adds, boosting the ‘Make in India’ program.


Own comments-
The folks that are/have been in charge of Indian fighter aviation believe we should secure the engine production first to make the project a success. The question is should we believe them or disbelievers spamming pages upon pages here?

“So there has been no crunch of funds, but the issue which has stalled the project is 100 percent Transfer of Technology (TOT) of the GE 414 engines from the US”, a top functionary at HAL told EurAsian Times.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

You can learn a great deal out of this rest depends on how you use the learning which we will not as usual.



Not really , the increase in cost is due to multiple factors.

First being our workforce being very inefficient due to several reason .

But mainly since we have to build different aircrafts need facility machines etc to be procured for them. To bring the cost down they need to be produced in over 500+ number over 20 years or more.

Now companies like mig Sukhoi Dassault etc can use the same workforce ,similar machines and existing infra space for their projects while we are dependent on different types and have to juggle with jugaad for this and that .

But eventually we learn. For e.g. Tejas exist due to our experience with Gnat Migs Mirage Dassault Sukhoi etc.

The only reason we lack behind is industrial and political will power backing pragmatic decision to continue with one realisable project.

We have been at dead end with Kaveri for over a decade but still nothing concrete done to get over it.

It's the same TOT due to which we are atleast Building Bofors derived artillery now. So not a total scam I'll say.

Our problem with engines is tooling and machining.
We can design engine on paper/computer but we have difficulty is Precision machining.
We are simply unable to fabricate our designs.

ToT will not help us with Precision machining.

As for Bofors we already had the machining capability. ATAGS project also helped a lot.

ToT gives basic know-how (some think like 5% of total project capability, as for the rest one has to develop themself.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Atmost usa can give ToT of manufacturing tech not design tech

That is all that is being asked, I think no one will be asking for anythong more than manufacture from raw material stage.

It might also be just manufacture of spares too.

 

[MonaLazy]

Atmost usa can give ToT of manufacturing tech not design tech

From what I understood, India will be able to make F414 from raw material stage (including special alloys that can withstand those temperatures)- the whole of it- both hot and cold sections. We will have 100% manufacturing know how.

Design and analysis of F414 is neither sought nor on the table. IPR will remain with GE and they will zealously guard it. We won't be able to iterate improvements to the core design.

The aim is to be able to make '000s of copies in house without any external dependency. Not to solve our jet engine woes- where we will need to keep investing in Kaveri and with the 110kN engine partner.

 

[Tridev123]

An rather different point of view which many might not agree.
I would like to look at the situation from the China prism.
Firstly inspite of the US selling/transferring almost state of the art F16V fighters to Taiwan equipped with advanced AESA radars, other electronics and latest versions of the Harpoon missiles, it will be a futile attempt to surpass China.
The cost of supplying these advanced weapons will only go up over time. US warships and aircraft have to travel several thousands of kilometres to even reach Taiwan. The resultant fuel costs and other overheads will in the long run bleed Washington economically. Bases like Guam do not entirely solve the problem.

China is not the Soviet Union which had a stagnant economy and minimum innovation potential. Even now Chinese economic growth is more than that of the US inspite of Covid.

China already has the largest navy numerically in the world. Its shipbuilding speeds are to be envied. So quantitatively they have already achieved their objective. And the unwelcome truth is that they are also steadily improving qualitatively. Each generation of Chinese weapons are better than their predecessors.

It would not be a figment of imagination to assume that that at some point of time Chinese weapons quality will match the best Western weapons.

How soon this will happen is a question to be answered.

So it is entirely possible that Washington will find that the costs of defending Taiwan will become unbearable.

That leaves only one option open for Washington. Offer the nuclear umbrella to Taiwan(like the Japanese).

The only way that this possible scenario can be avoided is by propping up an regional Asian power to act as an effective counterweight to China. The only country which meets the criteria is India.

An India which grows economically faster than China and also at least matches Chinese technological prowess will shackle the Chinese dragon. It goes without saying that India's military should also see a quantum jump. A strong Indian Navy which has enough ships and of good quality will force the dragon to first try to defeat the Indian tiger before attempting global dominance.

A combination of a strong Indian, Japanese and S Korean navy can raise the costs steeply for the PLAN. Yes, India will have to take an more offensive posture in the South China Sea.

An future Indian Army which has enough offensive power to sever Tibet and Xinjiang from the clutches of the PLA will force the Chinese to be very cautious.

The Indian Air Force should become the preeminent technological force in Asia. Very much possible.

So India is the key player in Asia. Without Indian support the United States will find it very difficult to checkmate China.

Already China is slowly but steadily climbing the knowledge ladder as far as designing and mass manufacturing high performance jet engines is concerned. Probably in the next decade Chinese turbofans may become reliable and find markets in Asia and Africa.

The monopoly enjoyed by the Western aero engine manufacturers might just end.

On the other hand by keeping India technologically backward in the field of aero engines, the major gainer would be the emerging Chinese jet engine manufacturers.

I don't think the West wants China to become the Prima Donna of the Asian turbofan engine market.

So maybe the Right Wing in Washington has finally begun to see sense and give India its rightful due.

Only the future will let us know what happens.
We should be ready to deal with any adverse situation.

 

[Azaad]

From what I understood, India will be able to make F414 from raw material stage (including special alloys that can withstand those temperatures)- the whole of it- both hot and cold sections. We will have 100% manufacturing know how.

Design and analysis of F414 is neither sought nor on the table. IPR will remain with GE and they will zealously guard it. We won't be able to iterate improvements to the core design.

The aim is to be able to make '000s of copies in house without any external dependency. Not to solve our jet engine woes- where we will need to keep investing in Kaveri and with the 110kN engine partner.

Doubt they'd be as charitable as you're suggesting. The hot section would always be retained by them. Whatever ToT in mfg we'd see will also be incremental not exponential & certainly not in one go. As an analogy if we manage something on the lines of the Al-31FP , it'd be nothing short of a miracle even if the ToT happens incrementally reaching 95% indigenous components by the end of the entire exercise hopefully within a decade.

Basically, the way I view the GoI's conditionality on funding the Mk-2 with the GE ToT is that the GoI has gone for broke. If this falls through for whatever reason, we've no choice but to approach Eurojet with the same conditions but that itself would be sub optimal as we would be on a weak wicket & subject to time consuming negotiations, this program & successive ones like the TEDBF & AMCA Mk-1 & Mk-2 would all be delayed considerably. Besides if this negotiation with the US breaks down , the funding even if it's approved would be practically useless as it's back to the drawing board for the ADA.

You may argue we could settle for imports from GE as an alternative but assuming we're going in for 500 + TFs & @3-4 TFs { 6-8 for TE } per Fighter Aircraft (FA) [ also assuming the JV for AMCA Mk-2 doesn't materialise ] during the entire LC of the FA you're looking at anywhere between 1500-2000 TFs across 3-4 decades. That's too risky a position for any government to be in which is essentially being beholden to another nation for your vital security. Hence Imports < Local mfg with limited ToT < Local mfg with complete ToT in mfg over a period of time.

 

[shade]

An rather different point of view which many might not agree.
I would like to look at the situation from the China prism.
Firstly inspite of the US selling/transferring almost state of the art F16V fighters to Taiwan equipped with advanced AESA radars, other electronics and latest versions of the Harpoon missiles, it will be a futile attempt to surpass China.
The cost of supplying these advanced weapons will only go up over time. US warships and aircraft have to travel several thousands of kilometres to even reach Taiwan. The resultant fuel costs and other overheads will in the long run bleed Washington economically. Bases like Guam do not entirely solve the problem.

China is not the Soviet Union which had a stagnant economy and minimum innovation potential. Even now Chinese economic growth is more than that of the US inspite of Covid.

China already has the largest navy numerically in the world. Its shipbuilding speeds are to be envied. So quantitatively they have already achieved their objective. And the unwelcome truth is that they are also steadily improving qualitatively. Each generation of Chinese weapons are better than their predecessors.

It would not be a figment of imagination to assume that that at some point of time Chinese weapons quality will match the best Western weapons.

How soon this will happen is a question to be answered.

So it is entirely possible that Washington will find that the costs of defending Taiwan will become unbearable.

That leaves only one option open for Washington. Offer the nuclear umbrella to Taiwan(like the Japanese).

The only way that this possible scenario can be avoided is by propping up an regional Asian power to act as an effective counterweight to China. The only country which meets the criteria is India.

An India which grows economically faster than China and also at least matches Chinese technological prowess will shackle the Chinese dragon. It goes without saying that India's military should also see a quantum jump. A strong Indian Navy which has enough ships and of good quality will force the dragon to first try to defeat the Indian tiger before attempting global dominance.

A combination of a strong Indian, Japanese and S Korean navy can raise the costs steeply for the PLAN. Yes, India will have to take an more offensive posture in the South China Sea.

An future Indian Army which has enough offensive power to sever Tibet and Xinjiang from the clutches of the PLA will force the Chinese to be very cautious.

The Indian Air Force should become the preeminent technological force in Asia. Very much possible.

So India is the key player in Asia. Without Indian support the United States will find it very difficult to checkmate China.

Already China is slowly but steadily climbing the knowledge ladder as far as designing and mass manufacturing high performance jet engines is concerned. Probably in the next decade Chinese turbofans may become reliable and find markets in Asia and Africa.

The monopoly enjoyed by the Western aero engine manufacturers might just end.

On the other hand by keeping India technologically backward in the field of aero engines, the major gainer would be the emerging Chinese jet engine manufacturers.

I don't think the West wants China to become the Prima Donna of the Asian turbofan engine market.

So maybe the Right Wing in Washington has finally begun to see sense and give India its rightful due.

Only the future will let us know what happens.
We should be ready to deal with any adverse situation.

What you're saying is logical but their current mindset seems to be about regime changing Modi.
If that's not possible their standard narrative is Indian Armed Forces are weak and useless against China.

Now all of this may change if they themselves realize China is getting too strong and will wrest control of East Asia from them, afterall the Ching knows in a long war the US is unwilling to pay the Butcher's Bill and so are it's vassals, there is only one country in the region with the requisite warm bodies available.

Till they receive this Nirvana they will continue dicking us over any Jet Engine ToT and restrict their most high tech platforms from us like the F35

 

[MonaLazy]

India, US to hold 1st Strategic Trade Dialogue meet in June

The first iCET dialogue between the National Security Advisors of the two countries took place on January 31.

www.hindustantimes.com

India, US to hold 1st Strategic Trade Dialogue meet in June
By
May 15, 2023 05:16 AM IST
The first iCET dialogue between the National Security Advisors of the two countries took place on January 31.
Expanding their multi-level engagement, India and US will hold the first meeting of Strategic Trade Dialogue on June 4-5 to implement the outcomes of the initiative on Critical and Emerging Technology (iCET) by streamlining export controls, enhancing high-tech commerce and facilitating tech transfer between the two countries.

Foreign Secretary Vinay Kwatra will be travelling to the US next month for the strategic trade dialogue meeting.
The first iCET dialogue between the National Security Advisors of the two countries took place on January 31, and the decision to hold the strategic trade meeting was taken when US Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo came to India for relaunching the bilateral commercial dialogue on March 10.
Indian Foreign Secretary Vinay Kwatra will be travelling to the US early next month to meet Under-Secretary of Commerce for Industry and Security Alan Estevez for the strategic trade dialogue meeting as well as to make last-minute preparations for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s June 22 visit to the White House to meet US President Joseph Biden.
PM Modi is expected to meet President Biden during the May 19-21 G-7 meeting in Japan, then during the QUAD summit on May 24, and the two leaders will be crossing each other at Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea on May 22 as part of critical engagement of the Far Pacific nations. While the US is expected to open up defence cooperation with PNG to counter the expanding footprint of Chinese security in the Solomon Islands next door, PM Modi will be extending a $100 million credit line to the Island nation as part of India’s comprehensive engagement with the Far Pacific.
As a part of India and the US engagement, particularly in the Indo-Pacific, Kwatra is expected to ensure that all hurdles under International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR) are smoothened for US companies to engage in joint and production of hi-tech systems such as aircraft engines, munition technologies and armed drones in India.
According to diplomats based in Washington and New Delhi, the US is expected to clear General Electric’s application to jointly produce F-414 jet engines in India for the Tejas Mark II before PM Modi’s visit to the US. US defence major GE is also talking to its ancillary partners in the EU to shift manufacturing for F-414 engines to India. The US is also ready to supply armed drones to India to counter the Chinese armed drone menace all along the LAC.
Apart from launching an innovation bridge that will connect Indian and US defence startups, India is also seeking US intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) technology for increased maritime domain awareness in the Indo-Pacific. Besides, the two countries are actively collaborating in establishing semiconductor-resilient supply chains in India with an eye on the Chinese military threat to Taiwan and the semiconductor industry based there.

 

[WolfPack86]

No Funding Crunch, India’s LCA Tejas MK2 ‘In A Limbo’ Over ToT Approval; PM Modi’s US Visit Could Seal The Deal
The development of India’s indigenous LCA Mk2 fighter jets will begin after ToT (transfer of technology) is signed with the US engine manufacturing company GE Aviation.

Next month’s visit of Prime Narendra Modi to the White House is likely to churn the momentum of the deal, EurAsian Times has learned.

India’s medium-weight fighter (MWF), LCA Mk2, is an advanced version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk1A, which is being used by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The LCA Tejas series has been designed and developed by India’s government subsidiary Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), in active participation with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). LCA jets are manufactured in the Bengaluru facility of HAL.

Last year in September (2022), Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved a sum of Rs 10,000 crore ($1.2B) for the development of the LCA Tejas MK2 project, which included prototype development and flight testing.

“This sum for the LCA MK2 project was sanctioned from the Defence Budget of the Ministry of Defence (MoD)”, said a top functionary involved in the project. “So there has been no crunch of funds, but the issue which has stalled the project is 100 percent Transfer of Technology (TOT) of the GE 414 engines from the US”, a top source linked to Tejas MK2 program told EurAsian Times.

LCA Mk2 is pitched to be 4.5 generation aircraft with a weight heavier than the LCA Mk1A. With a weight of 7.8 tons, LCA Mk2 is slated to carry a payload (weapons) of 6.5 tonnes.

While LCA Mk1A has 08 weapons pods, Mk2 aircraft has 11 weapons pods. HAL plans to weaponize Mk2 with indigenous missiles like Astra and Rudram beside French Meteor, Mica, and Scalp. MK2, when developed, is likely to replace IAF’s aging squadrons of Mirage 2000 and Jaguars fighter jets.

LCA MK2 jets are to be powered by GE-F414 INS6 engines of the US giant GE Aviation. The company is ‘willing’ to manufacture GE-414 engines in India under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s flagship program of ‘Make In India.’


The proposal is learned to have been pending before the US Congress now. India needs at least 99 such F414 engines for Mk2 aircraft. In 2021, HAL signed a deal worth Rs 5375 crores ($650M) for procuring 99 F404 engines from GE Aviation for LCA Tejas Mk1A aircraft.

Last month US Congressman Ro Khanna, on his visit to India, told the media that the deal for the ToT is likely to be done before PM Modi’s visit to the US, which is scheduled to be in the month of June.

As per the White House, PM Modi will attend a dinner hosted by President Joe Biden on June 22 at his official residence during the US visit.

In January this year, National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval visited the US to attend the inaugural meeting of the initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCTE) with his counterpart Jake Sullivan. iCTE was announced by PM Modi and President Biden in the year 2022.

After the January meeting between Doval and Sullivan, the White House issued a ‘fact sheet’ on Indo-US cooperation in the field of technology.

It read, “Developing a new bilateral Defense Industrial Cooperation Roadmap to accelerate technological cooperation between both countries for the joint development and production, with an initial focus on exploring projects related to jet engines, munition-related technologies, and other systems.”

It further mentioned about GE’s request, “Noting the United States has received an application from General Electric to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India. The United States commits to an expeditious review of this application.”

“Take the case of India’s first indigenous fighter jet project Marut (of the 60s), which failed primarily due to its engine. It was a well-designed and very capable aircraft, but the project dommed as the engine was not indigenous”, says Dr. Ravi Gupta, an Ex Scientist of DRDO.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is India’s leading defense establishment owned by the government and involved in the R&D of tanks, artillery guns, bombs, and missiles. ADA, which is involved in the design and development of the LCA Tejas series, is owned by DRDO.

“So, if the LCA Mk2 project needs to be successful, its engine should be fully indigenous”, Dr. Gupta told EurAsian Times, emphasizing 100 percent ToT of GE-414 engines to India.

ADA and HAL had initially planned to develop the LCA Mk2 by the end of this year, i.e., by 2023, and production from 2025. But with the ToT issue still pending, the project will be delayed like the earlier versions of LCA Tejas and LCA Tejas Mk1A.

While presently, IAF operates 02 squadrons of basic Tejas aircraft, MoD had ordered 83 Mk1A fighters too.

ADA and HAL are working on the design and development of the 5th generation stealth fighter jet, AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft). The government aviation agencies need engines for AMCA too.

With the big demand for engines for indigenous fighters, the Modi-led Indian Government wants to manufacture these engines in India under the ‘Atma-Nirbhar’ (self-reliance) policy of New Delhi.

“There are numerous global aviation companies that manufacture fighter jets, but few have developed aircraft engines because the design and development of an aircraft engine is far more complicated than the design of an aircraft,” says Dr. Gupta. “If GE-414 engines are manufactured under ToT, India will be a world competitor for the design of aircraft engines”, he adds, boosting the ‘Make in India’ program.

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-funding-crunch-indias-lca-tejas-mk2-in-a-limbo-over/

 

[MonaLazy]

Replugging this relevant albeit slightly old piece, to put things in perspective. How it is a smooth transition from 85kN 404 for Mk1/A to 98kN 414 for Mk2/AMCA Mk1/initial TEDBF to EPE+ for AMCA Mk2/later TEDBF. 116kN EPE is being offered as the baseline from which to develop that engine.

Second Thoughts

The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns, , Magazine Issue 5 Nov 2022

www.businessworld.in

Second Thoughts

The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns

Photo Credit :
1667459041_Dcw4Ky_IMG_20221103_WA0005.jpg

03November, 2022
by Vishal Thapar
Print this articleFont size -16+


The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.
Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.
“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.
Export control concerns
That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.
The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.
So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.
Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.
Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.
The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.
Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.
Deal in the making
GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.
Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.
“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.
Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.

 

[MonaLazy]

Was wondering why the 116kN is not offered for the initial lot of Mk2/AMCA I/TEDBF and realised Gangadhar hi shaktiman hai! It is the same 98kN engine with an EDE kit, once the hardware is installed then it is just a question of programming the FADEC.

With the EDE kit installed, you can either run the F414 at 98kN (22000 lb) thrust for 6000-hour turbine life or run it at 116kN (26400 lb) for 2000-hour turbine life. So what the AMCA II engine effort will be about is increasing the durability of F414 running at ~122kN to 6000 or so hours. (110/.9 = 122kN to account for a 10% drop in thrust in our weather conditions).

USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade

A major engine upgrade for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fleet is being seriously considered by the US Navy for a programme launch in Fiscal 2016, according to the US Navy.

www.flightglobal.com

USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade
By Stephen Trimble28 April 2014

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A major engine upgrade for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fleet is being seriously considered by the US Navy for a programme launch in Fiscal Year 2016.
GE Aviation and the navy jointly funded a one-year study – which kicked off last October – to examine the details of implementing a nearly 15-year-old proposal to upgrade the F414-GE-400 with the “enhanced durability engine” (EDE) kit.
Following a decade of component and rig testing and several false starts on the export market, the study may be GE Aviation’s best hope of salvaging a programme that could improve the thrust of the Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet by one-fifth.

Meanwhile, a US Navy-funded F414 upgrade programme could also boost the competitive position of the F414 over the rival Eurojet EJ2X0 – an upgraded variant of the Eurofighter Typhoon’s EJ200 – as new medium-sized, twin-engined fighters are proposed in Japan, South Korea and Turkey.

“If what we expect comes out of [the study], the need is there and the budgets line up, the next step is going to be to go ahead and start working on the detailed design of the engine,” says Jim Caplan, director of F404/F414 programmes for GE Aviation.“I believe they are looking at it as a potential [FY2016] programme.”

The engine upgrade decision comes at a pivotal time in the 22-year history of the Super Hornet and Growler programmes.Once-promising export leads for the F/A-18E/F in Brazil and India have dried up, and a foreign launch order for an advanced version of the aircraft – featuring the F414 EDE upgrade – does not appear likely in the near-term.

GE
Meanwhile, the programme of record for the navy is also running out. The official programme of record concludes in FY2014, but the service does not appear willing to allow the 32-year-old assembly line in St Louis, Missouri, to close just yet.

Last October, the navy issued a pre-solicitation notice for the possible purchase of up to 36 more F/A-18E/Fs in FY2015. However, the notice was later cancelled after a Flightglobal news report disclosed the potential deal. Naval Air Systems Command officials said the document was released prematurely.

The Obama administration subsequently unveiled the FY2015 budget request in February, but no funding for more EA-18Gs or F/A-18E/Fs was included.
The navy has since added a request for 22 more EA-18Gs to the top of its unfunded priorities list. Congress could add funding to buy the additional aircraft, but this is far from guaranteed.
As the budget debate unfolds, the navy is also considering how it should maintain its current fleet of F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs.
The engine upgrade is one of a package of modifications Boeing has offered to international customers for several years.Besides the engine, the most significant update proposed for the F/A-18E/F is a signature reduction package.

The Super Hornet in combat configuration carries weapons and external fuel tanks under its wings, but that payload makes it easier for radar to detect the fighter.
Boeing proposed reducing the fighter’s radar signature by replacing the wing-mounted fuel pods with conformal tanks installed on top of the fuselage. In addition, the airframer designed a conformal weapons bay in a container that greatly reduces the fighter’s profile on radar.
The Advanced Super Hornet includes more updates, including large-format, touchscreen displays in the cockpit.
However, the upgrade requiring the most internal changes – and offering the biggest advancement in performance – are modifications to the fighter’s pair of 22,000lb-thrust (99kN) F414-GE-400s.


GE
The F414 EDE is billed as an upgrade – not a new centreline engine – but it promises significant performance improvement. The configuration changes are exclusively hardware, but how the performance improvement is realised depends entirely on the software.
The navy can programme the full authority digital engine control system to upgrade the power output of the F414 EDE engine to around 26,400lb-thrust. The same changes can dramatically improve the engine’s durability if thrust output is maintained at the 22,000lb-thrust baseline.
The latter option also offers a 3% improvement in fuel efficiency, and up to $5 billion cost savings over an engine’s lifecycle – including reduced fuel and maintenance costs, GE’s Caplan says.
But the navy could also be tempted – if the F414 EDE programme is launched – to seek a thrust upgrade, which includes a doubling of acceleration power.“That gives you options in terms of future threats and aircraft capability,” Caplan says.

The powerplants produce 22,000lb-thrust
GE
The trade-off with upgrading the engine to produce 26,400lb-thrust is a considerable hike in maintenance costs. Running the F414 EDE at the higher thrust setting reduces turbine life to 2,000h, Caplan says. This is just one-third of the current 6,000h interval.
The upgrade itself mainly targets three of the six modules inside the engine – the fan, the high-pressure compressor and the high-pressure turbine.However, the dramatic thrust improvement is made possible by Boeing’s original design of the air inlet.
The inlet is sized to ingest up to 84.8kg/s (187lb/s) of air into the engine fan. However, the fan can only absorb 77.1kg/s of airflow, which artificially reduces the aircraft’s maximum thrust capability.
The F414 EDE addresses this gap in capability by making subtle but important changes to the inlet fan, to increase air flow to the maximum level of 84.8kg/s.
The three-stage fan is currently comprised of a traditional hub-and-blade configuration for the first stage, and integrated blades and discs – or blisks – in the second and third stages.
The proposed upgrade replaces the first stage with a blisk, Caplan says. A blisk reduces the diameter of the hub, thereby creating space for ingesting more air. Finally, GE is “re-tuning” the second- and third-stage fan blades to accommodate the additional mass of air, Caplan adds.
Aft of the fan module, the configuration changes are more dramatic. The F414 EDE proposes to reduce one stage of compression from the high-pressure compressor, leaving six stages to achieve the desired overall pressure ratio of airflow entering the combustion chamber.
To replace the foregone compression stage, the compressor blades will be redesigned with modern 3D aerodynamic techniques, which are often characterised by wider-chord and thicker blades, with more elaborate twisting or bowing.
The F414-GE-400 was launched in 1992 – a decade before 3D aerospace technology was advanced with the GE90-115B engine for the Boeing 777-300ER.“We had some [3D aerospace tools], but nothing like we have today,” Caplan says.
A perhaps overlooked benefit of 3D shaping is the improved tolerance of the blades to damage from foreign object debris (FOD) ingested upstream, he adds.
“Because of 3D aero the leading edge of the blade is a little more rounded than the current blade, so that results in it being more FOD-tolerant,” Caplan says.
The high-pressure turbine has also been updated with 3D technology – but the increased airflow presents another problem aft of the combustor.As the volume of air increases, the turbine inlet temperature also grows significantly – beyond the melting point of the metallic blades of the high-pressure turbine module.
As a result, the F414 EDE configuration features new cooling techniques. The turbine blades are already moulded with internal passages that channel cooling air siphoned from cooler parts of the engine, upstream of the combustor. However, the new design incorporates “different techniques” that Caplan is not authorised to describe in detail.
“It has to do more with the internal design of the blade,” he says. “Heat is evenly distributed and very consistently removed from the blades, with no thermal gradients. There are improvements in coatings as well.”
GE also has the option of switching to a more heat-resistant material to make the blades. The company is considering designing the first-stage turbine blades of the GE9X with silicon carbide-based ceramic matrix composites (CMC), which are lighter and more heat-resistant than metal. Indeed, the company tested CMCs in the low-pressure turbine of the F414-GE-400 for a 2011 demonstration.
However, GE decided not to switch to non-metallic materials in the hot section of the F414 EDE.“Part of this programme is really focused on how to introduce this kit without making significant changes to the engine,” Caplan says.

For example, introducing lighter, non-metallic blades encourages an engine designer to reduce the size and weight of the hub, he says – and such changes are complex and expensive.
In the end, the new passive cooling system integrated into the turbine blades was sufficient to meet the requirements of the engine. GE confirms that the F414 EDE turbine is equipped to survive despite a 66˚C (150˚F) increase in turbine inlet temperature.
That increase in temperature margin is the key metric in achieving either increased durability of the overall engine at the baseline thrust level, or the higher-power, less-durable performance at higher thrust setting.
Caplan notes that minor adjustments are made in the combustor and low-pressure turbine, but the significant changes are limited to the fan, compressor and high-pressure turbine. The afterburner module is essentially unchanged.
There has been no shortage of time to study and develop the F414 EDE. The origins of GE’s proposal date back nearly 15 years, when Pratt & Whitney briefly proposed a rival engine upgrade for the F/A-18E/F fleet known as the PW7000.
Over the last 10 years, the navy and GE have invested about $100 million in developing the F414 EDE configuration, Caplan says.Ground testing began in 2004 on a six-stage compressor and turbine. That was followed by a full compressor rig test in 2005. Two years later, GE tested the core with higher airflow from the three-blisk fan module. Finally, in 2011, GE ran more tests on the core.
The challenge now remains for GE to sell the navy on making an investment in the Super Hornet and Growler fleet, despite heavy budgetary pressure.
GE officials have offered to subsidise the cost of development, but Caplan was unwilling to discuss cost estimates or specific cost-sharing proposals.
“I think what’s happened now is there’s more interest – unfortunately, it comes at a time when the budgets are extremely tight,” Caplan says. “There’s more interest as people are starting to look at the longevity of the platform, recognising the fact that the Super Hornet is going to be in service for the next 25-30 years. For the Growler, there’s no publicly announced replacement.”
For GE Aviation, upgrading the F414-GE-400 is more than an opportunity for a near-term contract to upgrade the US Navy’s fleet of Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers.
The higher-thrust F414 enhanced durability engine (EDE) is also GE’s attempt to remain at the forefront of the market for powering single- and twin-engined, medium-sized fighters.
The F414 has proven remarkably adaptable in the global market. In addition to the F/A-18E/F family, the engine is also offered on the Saab Gripen, Gripen NG and the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas light combat aircraft.
But the competition in the 20,000-26,000lb-thrust (89-117kN) market is growing. In addition to the proposed Eurojet EJ2X0 engine upgrade, Pratt & Whitney has hinted at plans to break into the market with the PW9000, which combines the high-pressure section of the PW1000G and the low-pressure section of the PW135 engines.
“There’s a number of different opportunities” for the F414 EDE, Jim Caplan, director of F404/F414 programmes for GE Aviation, says. “There’s applications worldwide that this engine could play a role in.”
Asked about ongoing fighter development programmes in Japan, South Korea and Turkey, Caplan agreed those could be projects of interest to the F414 EDE.
“Those are all people who are interested in developing an aircraft and developing a [medium twin-engined fighter], so those are all potential opportunities,” Caplan says.
However, the opportunities are not entirely on the foreign market.Caplan notes that the energy produced by the F414 core is limited to 26,400lb-thrust in the EDE configuration only by the size of the air inlet on the Super Hornet.
“If we can get more air in the engine, can we get some more thrust out of it,” Caplan asks. “The answer is yes. We could actually drive this fan to go up a bit in airflow, and if we had some opportunity to redesign the engine bay and physically make the engine bigger, we can drive an even bigger fan and take on more air flow.”
Source: FlightGlobal.com

 

[johnj]

Atmost usa can give ToT of manufacturing tech not design tech

100% tot just means 100% of whatever is the agreement not like whole engine tech

That's right , 100% tot for assembling and manufacturing tech not design tech or whole engine tech.
GE and HAL also agreed to setup MRO for F404 engines. - similar tech sharing.
LCA mk2 development started with choosing F414 engines in 2008 with tot, you can read all these developments in initial pages of this thread, there is nothing new about it.
Current developments in US is not a issue for mk2 development.

 

[no smoking]

A combination of a strong Indian, Japanese and S Korean navy can raise the costs steeply for the PLAN. Yes, India will have to take an more offensive posture in the South China Sea.

Oh, yes, a strong Indian navy will come to South China Sea and leave Indian Ocean to US navy to look after.
Sorry, Indian generals are not stupid, neither are Americans.

An future Indian Army which has enough offensive power to sever Tibet and Xinjiang from the clutches of the PLA will force the Chinese to be very cautious.

Sure, Indian army already gets some kind of alien technologies which will provide a stable logistics support over Himalayas mountain for at least 50 divisions.

The Indian Air Force should become the preeminent technological force in Asia. Very much possible.
......

I don't think the West wants China to become the Prima Donna of the Asian turbofan engine market.

Very wield logic:
1. Because Chinese engine is becoming more reliable, West countries' product won't be able to compete? Are you sure?
2. Because there is a chance that Chinese engine may take a part of west companies' market share, so West countries should create another competitor?

So maybe the Right Wing in Washington has finally begun to see sense and give India its rightful due.

Well, the hardliners in Washington always understand what India is and will be: another challenger against their world behind China.

 

[Tridev123]

Oh, yes, a strong Indian navy will come to South China Sea and leave Indian Ocean to US navy to look after.
Sorry, Indian generals are not stupid, neither are Americans.



Sure, Indian army already gets some kind of alien technologies which will provide a stable logistics support over Himalayas mountain for at least 50 divisions.



Very wield logic:
1. Because Chinese engine is becoming more reliable, West countries' product won't be able to compete? Are you sure?
2. Because there is a chance that Chinese engine may take a part of west companies' market share, so West countries should create another competitor?



Well, the hardliners in Washington always understand what India is and will be: another challenger against their world behind China.

I can see the desperation in your reply.
You would not like the scenario that I have visualised to happen.
Ideally treat India as an underdog and not good enough to join Beijing at the table of major powers.

But your wishing and the actual happening will not match.
We already have the largest youth population in the world.
They will become the driving force for economic growth and technological innovation in the next two decades.
This at a time when China's birth rate is declining and the percentage of the elderly increasing.

Is it an impossible task to take on the PLA in Tibet and Xinjiang. Does the PLA see itself as an future Star Wars army which will rule over the world. An well planned Air Land battle with sufficient ground troops can overwhelm the PLA defences in Tibet and Xinjiang.

You harbour wet dreams of easily taking over Arunachal Pradesh and we are not supposed to even think of taking back Tibet and Xinjiang. Both of these provinces do not belong to China and were forcefully taken.

The Chinese were subjugated by the Japanese for decades and almost turned into slaves. And the Vietnamese ass raped you and taught the PLA the lesson of their lives.

So the Chinese are not an super human race and are very much defeatable. After the Japanese, I somehow have a feeling that the PLA will be taught an lesson in manners and ethics by the Indians. Don't underestimate us.

A stupid remark. Assuming that India will leave the Indian Ocean region vulnerable and unguarded while taking on the PLAN in the South China Sea. Our naval strength will be sufficient for accomplishing both tasks.

To predict the future, the Chinese moon is setting and the Indian sun is rising.

 

[Bleh]

So neutrality is paying off & US seems interested in buying India into leaning towards NATO by ToT offers... IMO

 

[Tridev123]

So neutrality is paying off & US seems interested in buying India into leaning towards NATO by ToT offers... IMO

Well, to each his fancy.
Obviously you are smitten by the argument of @nosmoking and the idea of Han supremacy. No quarrel to pick, bro.
We should say Lal Salaam to the CCCP.

 

[Bleh]

Well, to each his fancy.
Obviously you are smitten by the argument of @nosmoking and the idea of Han supremacy. No quarrel to pick, bro.
We should say Lal Salaam to the CCCP.

MWF thread hy be 🥲

 

[Tridev123]

MWF thread hy be 🥲

Agree, but it went out of topic long ago. Many members vented their ire with a lot of emotion.
Now will the Pentagon - Right Wing Extremists - anti Hindu Christian Evangelists really recognise the geo political reality and make an significant exception for India is the big question mark?.

I wouldn't be surprised if the all of the PR announcements turn into smoke and we go back to starting point.

One slender hope is that the US political class rolled back decades of stated policy to make an exception and agree to share nuclear submarine technologies with Australia. But again Australia is a white, Anglo Saxon country. Which India is not.

Lot of conspiracies floating around. Maaza le lo hy be. . The naked truth will be out before the year end. Patience monsieur.