ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

MonaLazy

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Discussions are going on with the US for the General Electric (GE) engines for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) MK2, while the French proposal is for a high-powered engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), government officials informed India Today.

The Indian side is evaluating the performances of both the jet engines well as the aspects related to price, and the extent of transfer of technology and manufacturing in India.
 

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Discussions are going on with the US for the General Electric (GE) engines for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) MK2, while the French proposal is for a high-powered engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), government officials informed India Today.

The Indian side is evaluating the performances of both the jet engines well as the aspects related to price, and the extent of transfer of technology and manufacturing in India.
Idrw said sometime back that they wanted an adaptive cycle engine with 120KN of thrust😂😂😂
 

johnj

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98kN F414 which will lead up to 120kN (F424?) engine subject to stars aligning.

Referencing https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&start=5800#p2570102
what we should be after-




GE is looking to establish an Indian subsidiary for engines
CW Team30 Mar 2023

If GE's ambitions to establish a joint venture to produce the F414 engine domestically in the nation are approved by the US Administrations, Chakan II in Pune might develop into a centre for the jet engines that will power India's next-generation fighter jets, such as the Tejas Mkll and TEDBF. In order to jointly produce F414 engines for the Indian and export markets and to act as a hub for the global supply chain for these engine's spare parts, GE is thinking about establishing a local subsidiary in India with Indian private sector businesses. This engine powers numerous other jets, including the American F-18 Super Hornet. It is being thought about building a new facility close to GE's "Brilliant Factory" in Chakan II in Pune, which produces turbocharger assemblies for locomotives and hub assemblies for wind turbines. It's unclear whether GE will establish a joint venture with a 51% ownership stake in India or a subsidiary with 100% ownership there.
Make of this what you will-


I have read a few search papers from GE itself which made these claims that by increasing the size of the fan and the core temperatures, this engine can produce upto 142 KN. So they have done the study already and maybe looking for a suitable platform/program to develop this engine further. Also read the globalsecurity page for F414.
Recognizing that the F/A-18E/F will assume new roles and missions over its lifetime, as well as face an uncertain and ever changing threat environment, GE designed the F414 with thrust growth potential to meet these anticipated needs. Already envisioned for the F414's first growth step was a 10 percent thrust increase that could be available by 2005. Increased performance would be achieved with an improved core having an all blisk compressor and higher temperature turbine alloys to withstand a modest temperature increase. The second growth step would provide 15 percent more thrust than the initial F414 - about 25,000 pounds of thrust (or roughly 111 kilo- Newtons ). This engine would use the improved Step A core with a larger fan and low-pressure turbine. It would still fit within the existing F/A-18E/F engine installation, however.

The final growth step - Step C - would produce an engine with 30 percent more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 pounds, or about 128 kilo- Newtons. This thrust level is nearly equal to the F110 Increased Performance Engine. To reach this impressive thrust level will demand further airflow growth from the fan, a modest temperature increase, a new two-stage low pressure turbine and a new afterburner.

this engine is presently fit to hit 128KN with present core. But it has ability to hit 142KN as well with CMC core which will need changes to fan, compressor and core. But the overall size of the engine may not change much. Not even 10%.

Discussions are going on with the US for the General Electric (GE) engines for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) MK2, while the French proposal is for a high-powered engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), government officials informed India Today.

The Indian side is evaluating the performances of both the jet engines well as the aspects related to price, and the extent of transfer of technology and manufacturing in India.
FYI
GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program &
GE’s F414 Engine
Very soon GE starts tot to HAL under 2013 deal singed by UPA, when mk2 enter lsp stage, the queries made by US gov is normal considering both f18sh and g using F414. AMCA engine JV is not a part of ongoing F414 tot/deal.
 

Azaad

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Why, why idrw want adaptive cycle engine for amca 5gen ?
To power lasers which will be the defining feature of all 5thGen + FA except F-35 which plans to get it 2030 onwards when they get their engine upgrade with an ACE TF , in case you aren't aware of it .
 

kamaal

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Now those selected 5 YouTube channels are talking prototypes going under manufacturing. I mean last year on 15th August we were confirmed that the 1st prototype will be revealed. Shall we start personal targeting of this ada/hal heads for misguiding the people. They're killing all the thrill around a fighter jet development.
 

johnj

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To power lasers which will be the defining feature of all 5thGen + FA except F-35 which plans to get it 2030 onwards when they get their engine upgrade with an ACE TF , in case you aren't aware of it .
Wait, US going after ACE for both subsonic & supersonic long range reach not for jut KEW.
FYI = To power lasers which will be the defining feature of all 5thGen - nope, its a defining feature of 6th gen
US considering ACE for F35 due to current engine issues, not becz of KEW and F35 using most powerful engine in a single engine fighter jet. ACE is not a major req for KEW.
ACE is for increased range & reduction in fuel burn over current low-bypass turbofans for supersonic jet fighter
 

NoobWannaLearn

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Now those selected 5 YouTube channels are talking prototypes going under manufacturing. I mean last year on 15th August we were confirmed that the 1st prototype will be revealed. Shall we start personal targeting of this ada/hal heads for misguiding the people. They're killing all the thrill around a fighter jet development.
As far as I know this whole August thing was started by youtubers no official word by hal or Ada they only said prototype by December 2024
 

Azaad

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Wait, US going after ACE for both subsonic & supersonic long range reach not for jut KEW.
FYI = To power lasers which will be the defining feature of all 5thGen - nope, its a defining feature of 6th gen
US considering ACE for F35 due to current engine issues, not becz of KEW and F35 using most powerful engine in a single engine fighter jet. ACE is not a major req for KEW.
ACE is for increased range & reduction in fuel burn over current low-bypass turbofans for supersonic jet fighter

The XA-100 has an adaptive fan that can direct air to an additional third bypass stream to max out fuel efficiency and electricity generation, but can redirect air directly into the compressor instead when necessary to juice up kinematic performance. The third stream also greatly improves cooling, which is vital as aircraft like the F-35 harness increasingly more powerful sensors and avionics, and eventually directed energy weapons like lasers. The XA-100 is also built with new ceramic matrix composites to further improve heat resistance.

 

MonaLazy

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Very soon GE starts tot to HAL under 2013 deal singed by UPA,
This is not the 2013 deal otherwise US would not be tying itself in knots over ToT. That was a 60% ToT with India importing the hot section in toto and making only cold section in country.

For the new deal they are making policy changes to be able to transfer 100% ToT. They are easing International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR).

Let's see what comes of it.

As far as I know this whole August thing was started by youtubers no official word by hal or Ada they only said prototype by December 2024
 
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NoobWannaLearn

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This is not the 2013 deal otherwise US would not be tying itself in knots over ToT. That was a 60% ToT with India importing the hot section in toto and making only cold section in country.

For the new deal they are making policy changes to be able to transfer 100% ToT. They are easing International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR).

Let's see what comes of it.



Aha that's unfortunate so Ada did miss the timeline and they haven't even started the prototype yet Shame
 

johnj

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This is not the 2013 deal otherwise US would not be tying itself in knots over ToT. That was a 60% ToT with India importing the hot section in toto and making only cold section in country.

For the new deal they are making policy changes to be able to transfer 100% ToT. They are easing International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR).

Let's see what comes of it.
That is what I'm saying, two different deals, the current one submitted by GE in US congress is old deal, and GoI & US talking about a new deal for amca, which is irreverent of 99 engine tot deal which is happing now.
If gov change old deal, then entire deal become obsolete, and huge delay in mk2 pgrm and uncertainty increases about ADA future & decision making process, but its not the case, thats why US gov fast tracking the approval before new engine JV negotiations starts. Like you said it will be further development of GE414[with Indian money/may be like f16bk60 + Made in India] & Let's see what comes of it.
Also US not be tying itself in knots over ToT - they only making enquiries about safety of tech in Indian hands & possibility of US F16/4th gen sales to India
 
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MonaLazy

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That is what I'm saying, two different deals, the current one submitted by GE in US congress is old deal, and GoI & US talking about a new deal for amca, which is irreverent of 99 engine tot deal which is happing now.
If gov change old deal, then entire deal become obsolete, and huge delay in mk2 pgrm and uncertainty increases about ADA future & decision making process, but its not the case, thats why US gov fast tracking the approval before new engine JV negotiations starts. Like you said it will be further development of GE414[with Indian money/may be like f16bk60 + Made in India] & Let's see what comes of it.
Also US not be tying itself in knots over ToT - they only making enquiries about safety of tech in Indian hands & possibility of US F16/4th gen sales to India
Why? Why will a 2010 deal be discussed now? It's 13 years since.


They are talking about 100% F414 ToT for Mk2.

IMO, Indian babuz thinking-

If US agrees to 100% ToT for F414 for Mk2 then they are favorites for AMCA II engines and maybe even future import requirements of IAF & IN F-35/MRCBF. This is the more likely scenario as US has India firmly in its strategic embrace.

If not, then France is favorites for MRFA/MRCBF and AMCA II engines. US loses our on everything other than supplying India F414 for Mk2, AMCA I and initial lots of TEDBF.

Reasons for this thinking
  1. RNS was to announce AMCA II engine partner (presumably France) at AI'23- didn't happen.
  2. MRCBF winner was to be announced by March this year, didn't happen.
  3. US renewed it's offer for AMCA II engines and are making policy changes that shut down jet engine JWG under DTTI earlier.
Both decisions have been withheld by GoI purportedly waiting for something else to work out. While what is said conveys information, what is not said conveys even more.
 
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Sayman Ame

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Behind paywall. Pls post full article here.


The Messy Battle to Build the F-35's Next Engine

General Electric and Pratt & Whitney are fighting tooth-and-nail over jet engines—specifically, whose will power the hundreds of F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters operated by the U.S. military and its allies across the globe. Given that the F-35 is the most expensive defense program in history, the stakes are high.
Presently, the F-35 uses Pratt & Whitney’s F135 turbofan engine, or the F-135-600 version for the Marine’s F-35B jump jet model. Developed from the F119 engine used by the F-22 Raptor stealth fighter, the F135 can generate 28,000 pounds of thrust, or 43,000 with afterburner; and withstand 3600 degrees Fahrenheit of heat. The almost two-ton engine is assembled in a factory in Middletown, Connecticut, with some subcomponent built in Canada and Poland.
f135 powerplant

An F135-PW-100 powerplant.
Wikimedia Commons
The hugely expensive and much delayed Block 4 upgrade to the F-35 currently in progress, however, requires an engine that can generate more electricity for systems integrated into the F-35. Better thermal management is also required, as F-35s already struggle sometimes with the current load, and the addition of Block 4 systems will increase that burden. Thus, a failure to improve the engine would reportedly raise operating costs and reduce engine life.

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The History of the B-2 Spirit


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The F135 has had a bumpy ride recently. The crash of a hovering F-35B jump jet on December 14, 2022 led to a freeze on F135 deliveries 13 days later. Subsequently, Pratt & Whitney identified engine vibrations (“harmonic resonance”) causing the failure of a high-pressure fuel tube as the culprit. A fix dampening engine vibrations is being implemented going forward. Pratt & Whitney claims deliveries may resume in March, though it’s unclear how fixes could be retrofitted to already delivered engines.
This content is imported from youTube. You may be able to find the same content in another format, or you may be able to find more information, at their web site.
Earlier, there were also reports that sustained use of the afterburners could damage the F-35’s tail, leading the Marine Corps and Navy to quietly self-impose a 40- to 80-second time limit on after burner usage.
The debate now concerns whether the F135 engine should receive an evolutionary update, or be entirely replaced with a new adaptive cycle-engine that can reconfigure itself midflight to optimize fuel efficiency or thrust as needed.
The Air Force has devoted $4.4 billion to developing adaptive-cycle engines since kicking off a program called ADVENT in 2007. This morphed in 2016 into the Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AEPT), in which both GE and Pratt & Whitney were contracted to separately develop prototype engines, called the XA-100 and XA-101, respectively.
AETP technology was foremost intended to prep for the U.S.’s forthcoming next-generation air dominance (NGAD) fighter—but it would also be explored as a possible upgrade for the F-35, too. AETP’s goal was a new engine that hoped to improve fuel efficiency by 25 percent, increase thrust by 10 percent, and boost thermal management compared to the F135.
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Though Pratt & Whitney developed an adaptive-cycle engine called the XA101, the company’s F135 program head Jennifer Latka argued the AETP engines were “not the right fit for the F-35” and that it made more sense to reserve adaptive cycle technology for NGAD. Instead, the company would rather develop an evolutionary Engine Core Upgrade (ECU), increasing the F135’s thrust by 10 percent and fuel efficiency by 5 percent (resulting in 7 percent increased range), while supposedly reducing costs of a shop visit by 36 percent.
But rival General Electric wants the Air Force to toss the F135 and re-engine with its own XA-100 adaptive cycle engine. Already, two flight weight XA100 prototypes completed testing in 2022. This XA100 supposedly would increase fuel efficiency by 25 percent (resulting in a 30- to 35-percent increase in range), allow a 10- to 20-percent increase to thrust, and absorb twice as much heat.
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In theory, the XA-100 offers far more considerable performance improvements. However, rival Pratt & Whitney claims developing its ECU would cost $2.4 billion compared to $6.7 billion for the rival XA-100, and that its evolutionary upgrade would result in $40 billion lower life-cycle costs.
GE argues the successful F-16 and F-15 fighters also transitioned to different engines with satisfactory results—notably from Pratt & Whitney’s F100 to General Electric’s F110. GE’s advanced propulsion manager David Tweedie told Aviation Week he believes the new engine could be “seamlessly” integrated into F-35s by 2028, though the F-35’s Joint Project Office may envision a later 2031 date.
Adaptive Cycle Engine: From Concept to Reality
Most modern jets use turbofan engines, which squeeze air through a compressor and combustion chamber, while allowing additional air to bypass the engine core. The higher the ratio of air bypassing the compressor, the more fuel-efficient the aircraft, particularly when flying below the speed of sound. But if you want to maximize thrust to accelerate rapidly and sustain high speeds—you know, like a jet fighter in combat—you want a lower bypass ratio, even though it comes at a cost in fuel efficiency.
turbofan chart


Wikimedia Commons

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The premise with the adaptive cycle engine is that you can have your cake and eat it, too: the engine redirects a third stream of air midflight based on the desired performance regime.
The XA-100 has an adaptive fan that can direct air to an additional third bypass stream to max out fuel efficiency and electricity generation, but can redirect air directly into the compressor instead when necessary to juice up kinematic performance. The third stream also greatly improves cooling, which is vital as aircraft like the F-35 harness increasingly more powerful sensors and avionics, and eventually directed energy weapons like lasers. The XA-100 is also built with new ceramic matrix composites to further improve heat resistance.
The XA-100 could help mitigate one of the F-35’s biggest weaknesses: its limited range (without aerial refueling), which means that in a theater like the Pacific, F-35s must be based within easy striking range of land-based ballistic missiles. Improved thrust could also reduce the type’s kinematic deficits compared to fourth-generation non-stealth fighters, improving capability in within-visual range combat.
But there are considerable costs and technical risks involved in integrating an entirely new engine, however good. Already, the F-35 has served as an object lesson of how integrating multiple new technologies can results in delays and skyrocketing development costs.
Another issue is that two new F135 replacements might actually have to be developed—one for Air Force and Navy F-35As and Cs, and another for the F-35B jump jet unique F135-600 engine.
The Tradeoffs
Overall, there’s little doubt adaptive cycle engines have major benefits and will likely feature prominently in the forthcoming sixth generation of combat aircraft. But the question remains whether it makes sense to retrofit an entirely new engine to the fifth-generation F-35, which has only just begun to overcome epic growing pains making it into service and remains very expensive to operate per flight hour.
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A defense analyst with years of experience supporting various defense aerospace programs such as the F-35, B-21, and next-generation programs, who chose to remain anonymous, told Pop Mech:
“Right now, there’s a growing sense of urgency in the USAF to get the ball rolling on F-35 Block IV upgrades. If we were to go to war right now, I think a match-up between current F-35s and J-20s [China’s current operational stealth fighter] would be uncomfortably close. I think we’ll see some Block IV upgrades be dropped or come out staggered and be integrated into earlier lots before the first ‘all Block IV’ production models come out in the latter part of this decade (hopefully).”
In his view, getting the much delayed Block IV model “out of the door” should be a priority:
“I’m not ‘read-in’ to all of Block IV (it’s very closely guarded) but I’ve heard we’re doing well in adaptive cycle engine development. My concern for the XA-100 is the same as it is for so many other upgrades to the F-35—integration. Personally, I would just upgrade the F135s if it saves us years of development and integration. And if it does, I think that’s the way the Department of Defense will go. Especially since General Charles Brown, General David Berger, and Admiral Mike Gilday [chiefs of the Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy respectively] aren’t particularly wed to the F-35 like some of their predecessors have been…”
In his estimation, adaptive cycle engines might not be most cost-efficient solution for the F-35’s problems:
“There are other ways we can compensate for the range/efficiency we need that an adaptive cycle engine can give us. Plus we can focus our adaptive cycle engine efforts on NGAD and NGAD-N [the Navy’s next-generation fighter program].”
Presently, the Pentagon is hedging its bets, awarding Pratt & Whitney a $115 million contract in December 2022 to begin preliminary work on its more conservative ECU upgrade, a project that already involves 250 engineers; while giving General Electric $203 million to sustain 400 staff working on the XA100 in Ohio until a decision is made.
Further hints as to which path lawmakers in Washington will favor are expected when the Biden administration releases its 2024 defense budget request in March. Meanwhile, adaptive cycle engine development specifically aimed at sixth-generation combat aircraft is now being spun-off into a $5 billion program called Next Generation Adaptive Propulsion (NGAP).

Contributor
Sébastien Roblin has written on the technical, historical, and political aspects of international security and conflict for publications including 19FortyFive, The National Interest, MSNBC, Forbes.com, Inside Unmanned Systems and War is Boring. He holds a Master’s degree from Georgetown University and served with the Peace Corps in China. You can follow his articles on Twitter.
 

MonaLazy

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The next question is from the line of Umesh Raut from PhillipCapital. Please go-ahead.

Umesh RautPhillipCapital — Analyst

Thank you so much for giving me an opportunity. Sir, my first question pertains to one of the major prospect that we have in the form of LCA Mk2 where as per the some of the media sources, now we are facing the challenge of signing TOT contract for supply of engine GE’s F414. So, I want to know what is exactly the status for development of LCA Mk2 and would that — would this TOT delay will hamper development timelines for LCA Mk2.

Jayadeva, E.P.Director Operation

The LCA Mk2 design is almost — design of all the parts is almost completed. And shortly, we want to launch the [Indecipherable] production at AHL. Regarding the engine production also, we have given our, in fact, we are the production agency for GE 414 earlier also. Our ending division in Bangalore has been identified as a production agency. Recently given our willingness to be part of this also — reinforced our willingness to ADA also. ADA is speaking up with GE and the U.S. government to see that the TOT is given to the full extent. After that, we are expecting the contract to be concluded once the ADA [Indecipherable] sanction in full form.

Sanction in full form.

Umesh RautPhillipCapital — Analyst

But sir, do you see any major challenge in signing TOT with GE?

Jayadeva, E.P.Director Operation

No, we are not finding any problem with the TOT with the GE. We’ll be manifesting the engine at scale.

C. B. AnanthakrishnanDirector of Finance and Chief Executive Officer

In fact, just to add to that, today the sort of our strategy with all our supplies including the engine manufacturers is quite clear. if at all they have to do business in India, they will have to have the TOT and the manufacturing facility established within the country. So we are working with all our OEMs towards that and we are confident that that will happen. And because they also have understood that once if they have to do business with India and with HAL, they will have to have the facilities established in the country. So we will be able to negotiate to our requirement of having a full TOT getting done within India.

Quoting those that must not be quoted-


The Engine Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore is in the lead to secure a contract for the local manufacturing, under license, of the General Electric F414 engine for the Tejas MkII program. This significant development comes as General Electric awaits final clearance from the Biden administration regarding the Transfer of Technology (ToT) for the engine, which includes clearance for the Core section of the engine to be transferred to India.

General Electric anticipates substantial orders for approximately 300 engine units solely from India for its Tejas MkII, TEDBF, and AMCA MkI fighter jet programs. Once the necessary clearances are obtained, the local manufacturing of the F414 engine by HAL’s Engine Division would not only strengthen the indigenous production capabilities but also contribute to India’s self-reliance in the defence sector.


The collaboration between HAL and General Electric holds great potential for enhancing the Tejas MkII program and other future fighter jet projects. The production of F414 engines locally would not only provide technical expertise but also create job opportunities and boost the overall aerospace industry in India.


The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) insisted on interest in establishing local assembly facilities for engines and manufacturing key parts within the country. This move aims to stabilize the production systems and ensure a steady supply of frequently replaced components, ultimately reducing operating costs while enhancing the combat readiness of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Officials familiar with the matter told idrw that, the local manufacturing facilities and infrastructure will play a vital role in bolstering the Tejas mk2 fleet once it enters production. The initiative is seen as a significant step towards achieving self-reliance in the defence sector and reducing dependence on foreign suppliers.

GE Aviation, a leading global aircraft engine manufacturer, has expressed its intent to establish local manufacturing capabilities for F414 engines in India. The company has submitted its proposal and is now awaiting final approval from the Biden administration, which is expected to coincide with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming state visit to the United States.

The decision to focus on local manufacturing aligns with the broader vision of the Indian government’s Make in India campaign, which aims to promote indigenous production and boost the domestic defence industry. By encouraging local assembly and manufacturing, the MoD seeks to create a self-sustaining ecosystem that can support the production needs of the IAF and other branches of the armed forces.

The move is expected to have a positive impact on the Tejas mk2 program, which is the upgraded version of India’s indigenous Tejas fighter aircraft. The enhanced local manufacturing capabilities will provide a strong foundation for the Tejas mk2 fleet, ensuring a reliable supply chain, efficient maintenance processes, and cost-effective operations.
 
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