ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Gyyan]

 

[NutCracker]

Wasn't a true to scale AMCA (& Tejas 1 & 2 before it) model tested at Calspan- in USA. The Americans already have a lot of data on our crown jewels. We can't be both mistrusting them and sending our top secret projects to them for validation.

Looking at the amount of Horny chimps in defence industry, Even if it wasnt tested at Calspan , US would've anyhow acquired the classified data about AMCA. US has issues with the future of Indian aerospace and unrestricted control over defence export.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Make of this what you will-

https://www.s*trategicfront.org/for...dvanced-medium-combat-aircraft.79/post-226962

I have read a few search papers from GE itself which made these claims that by increasing the size of the fan and the core temperatures, this engine can produce upto 142 KN. So they have done the study already and maybe looking for a suitable platform/program to develop this engine further. Also read the globalsecurity page for F414.
Recognizing that the F/A-18E/F will assume new roles and missions over its lifetime, as well as face an uncertain and ever changing threat environment, GE designed the F414 with thrust growth potential to meet these anticipated needs. Already envisioned for the F414's first growth step was a 10 percent thrust increase that could be available by 2005. Increased performance would be achieved with an improved core having an all blisk compressor and higher temperature turbine alloys to withstand a modest temperature increase. The second growth step would provide 15 percent more thrust than the initial F414 - about 25,000 pounds of thrust (or roughly 111 kilo- Newtons ). This engine would use the improved Step A core with a larger fan and low-pressure turbine. It would still fit within the existing F/A-18E/F engine installation, however.

The final growth step - Step C - would produce an engine with 30 percent more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 pounds, or about 128 kilo- Newtons. This thrust level is nearly equal to the F110 Increased Performance Engine. To reach this impressive thrust level will demand further airflow growth from the fan, a modest temperature increase, a new two-stage low pressure turbine and a new afterburner.

this engine is presently fit to hit 128KN with present core. But it has ability to hit 142KN as well with CMC core which will need changes to fan, compressor and core. But the overall size of the engine may not change much. Not even 10%.

This is not the 2013 deal otherwise US would not be tying itself in knots over ToT. That was a 60% ToT with India importing the hot section in toto and making only cold section in country.

For the new deal they are making policy changes to be able to transfer 100% ToT. They are easing International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR).

Let's see what comes of it.

USA has never agreed to give TOT for anything critical till date. USA refused to sell Arrow SAM, refused to sell rubidium clock for IRNSS, refused to sell INS system for Indian fighter planes, refused IBM to help setup 10 years (4 generation) old chipsets foundry to manufacture 180nm semiconductor chips, refused to sell chips for Tejas and even jailed Sudarshan Parthasarathy for smuggling some chipsets to India. Most of these instances were just about sales of equipments, not TOT which USA denied citing reverse engineering concerns. The idea that suddenly it will change its mind and offer cutting edge TOT makes little sense.

But many sources say in osints that many tenders are out many tenders have been completed by giving order for those items related to mk2
What is truth doesn't seem to be clear funds released or not is biggest question

Funding is dependent on political will. Three is no problem with that currently. So, funding issue should be the last of the concerns. The main concern is likely about technology development.

Posting this here to back up what I said earlier. F-414 EDE with CMC core will take this engine to 130+kN with acceptable durability. It will exceed AMCA supercruise requirements- now only if the Americans could transfer IP + know-why then this is a no-brainer.

theigmp.org/general-electric-offers-upgraded-core-on-f-414-engine/

General Electric Offers Upgraded Core On F-414 Engine To Generate 130kn Thrust For Indian AMCA Stealth Jet
View attachment 207347Representative Image
US firm General Electric has presented a proposal to India offering to develop a new engine using its 116 kilonewtons F-414 enhanced engine as a baseline to power India’s AMCA Mark 2 program that will meet the crucial objectives of achieving supercruise capabilities and reduced thermal signature.
General Electric has extended an offer to India to utilize their Ceramic Matrix composite engine core parts which require 20% less cooling air and can also withstand higher temperatures thus allowing the core to generate thrust exceeding 130 kilonewtons with the upgraded F-414 core.
The baseline 98 kilonewton thrust F-414 NS6 engine has already been selected to power India’s Tejas Mark 2, TEDBF, and AMCA Mark 1, and India now has the option to select a new engine with upgraded Ceramic Matrix composite enhanced core that has the potential to surpass 130 kilonewtons of thrust.
Trending
But it is also important to note that the Indian Air Force has earlier rejected the same offer from General Electric to produce an upgraded 110kn+ thrust F-414 engine variant for AMCA Mark 2, now it is to be seen that whether the IAF accepts this new offer or not. General Electric offers upgraded core on F-414 engine to generate 130kn thrust for Indian AMCA stealth jet

Anyone who says that F414 will have 115kN or more with same size has no idea what he is talking about. The current TWR is 9 for F414. The highest twr for her engine is for F135 which is over 10. F135 is unique as it has counter rotating turbine (possibke due to its huge size). The idea that F414 can somehow get ceramics and can surpass counter rotation technology in TWR is absurd to say the least. The 115KN engine of F414 will either exceed its size or is just marketing ploy.

IIRC idrw posted once that was a new offer from RR about an engine with 120 KN thrust and thrust could be enhanced by 10% if needed.

RR had no engine of that size yet. Even if it starts developing an engine, it will not take less than 2035 to produce it. RR had not developed any fighter engines faster than 10 years. Even USA companies like GE have never developed an engine in less than 10 years. So, it is absurd to go for an engine that doesn't exist

 

[MonaLazy]

USA has never agreed to give TOT for anything critical till date.

Anyone who says that F414 will have 115kN or more with same size has no idea what he is talking about.

I have backed up my claims with sources both for ToT as well as growth potential of F414, while what you are saying is purely anecdotal.

If you think you know more then who am I to get in the way?

 

[MonaLazy]

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit

swarajyamag.com

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit
by Swarajya Staff - May 27, 2023, 11:28 AM

The F414-GE-100 engine.

India and the United States are on the brink of finalizing a multi-billion dollar agreement to manufacture fighter jet engines in the country.

The long-anticipated deal is expected to be finalised during the visit of US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin to Delhi next week.

Sources close to the matter have revealed that the highly significant deal is likely to be unveiled during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's state visit to the United States next month.

Under this deal, General Electric's GE-414 engines, which have been selected by India to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk2 and the fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), will be manufactured in India in association with a local partner.

The discussions for this agreement commenced over a year ago and have gained momentum following the talks held in Washington as part of the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

In January of this year, the White House confirmed that it had received an application from GE to collaborate in manufacturing engines in India.

The iCET talks, led by National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and his American counterpart, Jake Sullivan, marked an important milestone in the partnership between the two nations.

The agreement holds great significance for India's defense production as the government aims to reduce dependence on foreign imports and promote indigenous manufacturing in defence.

The manufacturing of GE's F414 jet engines in the country would lead to the creation of the infrastructure and the development of a supply chain needed for such complex projects in the future.

Moreover, this collaboration also underscores the United States' willingness to facilitate the transfer of advanced jet engine technology to India. During a visit to India in March, Frank Kendall, Secretary of the US Air Force, expressed the US's openness to full technology transfer.

 

[shade]

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit

swarajyamag.com

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit
by Swarajya Staff - May 27, 2023, 11:28 AM

View attachment 207419
The F414-GE-100 engine.

India and the United States are on the brink of finalizing a multi-billion dollar agreement to manufacture fighter jet engines in the country.

The long-anticipated deal is expected to be finalised during the visit of US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin to Delhi next week.

Sources close to the matter have revealed that the highly significant deal is likely to be unveiled during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's state visit to the United States next month.

Under this deal, General Electric's GE-414 engines, which have been selected by India to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk2 and the fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), will be manufactured in India in association with a local partner.

The discussions for this agreement commenced over a year ago and have gained momentum following the talks held in Washington as part of the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

In January of this year, the White House confirmed that it had received an application from GE to collaborate in manufacturing engines in India.

The iCET talks, led by National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and his American counterpart, Jake Sullivan, marked an important milestone in the partnership between the two nations.

The agreement holds great significance for India's defense production as the government aims to reduce dependence on foreign imports and promote indigenous manufacturing in defence.

The manufacturing of GE's F414 jet engines in the country would lead to the creation of the infrastructure and the development of a supply chain needed for such complex projects in the future.

Moreover, this collaboration also underscores the United States' willingness to facilitate the transfer of advanced jet engine technology to India. During a visit to India in March, Frank Kendall, Secretary of the US Air Force, expressed the US's openness to full technology transfer.

Aap bekar me garam ho rahe ho
US aapko thanda chod degi

No TOT, If cockless vassals like Germany and Japan don't get ToT, what hope have we lol?

 

[Samej Jangir]

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit

swarajyamag.com

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit
by Swarajya Staff - May 27, 2023, 11:28 AM

View attachment 207419
The F414-GE-100 engine.

India and the United States are on the brink of finalizing a multi-billion dollar agreement to manufacture fighter jet engines in the country.

The long-anticipated deal is expected to be finalised during the visit of US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin to Delhi next week.

Sources close to the matter have revealed that the highly significant deal is likely to be unveiled during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's state visit to the United States next month.

Under this deal, General Electric's GE-414 engines, which have been selected by India to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk2 and the fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), will be manufactured in India in association with a local partner.

The discussions for this agreement commenced over a year ago and have gained momentum following the talks held in Washington as part of the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

In January of this year, the White House confirmed that it had received an application from GE to collaborate in manufacturing engines in India.

The iCET talks, led by National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and his American counterpart, Jake Sullivan, marked an important milestone in the partnership between the two nations.

The agreement holds great significance for India's defense production as the government aims to reduce dependence on foreign imports and promote indigenous manufacturing in defence.

The manufacturing of GE's F414 jet engines in the country would lead to the creation of the infrastructure and the development of a supply chain needed for such complex projects in the future.

Moreover, this collaboration also underscores the United States' willingness to facilitate the transfer of advanced jet engine technology to India. During a visit to India in March, Frank Kendall, Secretary of the US Air Force, expressed the US's openness to full technology transfer.

TOT in definition of USA includes things like "assembly line knowledge", technological knowledge to assemble kits, technology to make engine case, electrical wires, afterburner tubes etc according to "Gruelling and exacting" tolerances etc. The real TOT is when India gets IPR for F414 or at least F404.

I am basing my arguments on the basis of over 40 years of USA-India technology sharing ordeals. I see no reason for things to suddenly change.

 

[MonaLazy]

I am basing my arguments on the basis of over 40 years of USA-India technology sharing ordeals. I see no reason for things to suddenly change.

Ok i see now. But my argument is India will anyways make the 110kN powerplant with Safran/RR if not GE. So India is positively going to emerge as a competitor in the international jet engine market in a decade or two. Seeing as we are going to get turbojet tech one way or the other the Americans will want in on the action while they still can. & this time the condition for the OEM is 100% local manufacturing- let's just call it that instead of ToT.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Ok i see now. But my argument is India will anyways make the 110kN powerplant with Safran/RR if not GE. So India is positively going to emerge as a competitor in the international jet engine market in a decade or two. Seeing as we are going to get turbojet tech one way or the other the Americans will want in on the action while they still can. & this time the condition for the OEM is 100% local manufacturing- let's just call it that instead of ToT.

Hmm may be... It's "turbofan " though.

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit

swarajyamag.com

Deal To Manufacture GE F414 Engine In India For Tejas Mk-2 To Be Cleared Ahead Of PM Modi's US Visit
by Swarajya Staff - May 27, 2023, 11:28 AM

View attachment 207419
The F414-GE-100 engine.

India and the United States are on the brink of finalizing a multi-billion dollar agreement to manufacture fighter jet engines in the country.

The long-anticipated deal is expected to be finalised during the visit of US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin to Delhi next week.

Sources close to the matter have revealed that the highly significant deal is likely to be unveiled during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's state visit to the United States next month.

Under this deal, General Electric's GE-414 engines, which have been selected by India to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk2 and the fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), will be manufactured in India in association with a local partner.

The discussions for this agreement commenced over a year ago and have gained momentum following the talks held in Washington as part of the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

In January of this year, the White House confirmed that it had received an application from GE to collaborate in manufacturing engines in India.

The iCET talks, led by National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and his American counterpart, Jake Sullivan, marked an important milestone in the partnership between the two nations.

The agreement holds great significance for India's defense production as the government aims to reduce dependence on foreign imports and promote indigenous manufacturing in defence.

The manufacturing of GE's F414 jet engines in the country would lead to the creation of the infrastructure and the development of a supply chain needed for such complex projects in the future.

Moreover, this collaboration also underscores the United States' willingness to facilitate the transfer of advanced jet engine technology to India. During a visit to India in March, Frank Kendall, Secretary of the US Air Force, expressed the US's openness to full technology transfer.

They basically want to control India through fighter jet deal. Make us dependent on them.

USA has never agreed to give TOT for anything critical till date. USA refused to sell Arrow SAM, refused to sell rubidium clock for IRNSS, refused to sell INS system for Indian fighter planes, refused IBM to help setup 10 years (4 generation) old chipsets foundry to manufacture 180nm semiconductor chips, refused to sell chips for Tejas and even jailed Sudarshan Parthasarathy for smuggling some chipsets to India. Most of these instances were just about sales of equipments, not TOT which USA denied citing reverse engineering concerns. The idea that suddenly it will change its mind and offer cutting edge TOT makes little sense.


Funding is dependent on political will. Three is no problem with that currently. So, funding issue should be the last of the concerns. The main concern is likely about technology development.


Anyone who says that F414 will have 115kN or more with same size has no idea what he is talking about. The current TWR is 9 for F414. The highest twr for her engine is for F135 which is over 10. F135 is unique as it has counter rotating turbine (possibke due to its huge size). The idea that F414 can somehow get ceramics and can surpass counter rotation technology in TWR is absurd to say the least. The 115KN engine of F414 will either exceed its size or is just marketing ploy.

RR had no engine of that size yet. Even if it starts developing an engine, it will not take less than 2035 to produce it. RR had not developed any fighter engines faster than 10 years. Even USA companies like GE have never developed an engine in less than 10 years. So, it is absurd to go for an engine that doesn't exist

It's not somehow ... They studied this before and with marginal increase they can increase the afterburner thrust by 10-15 % that is inbetween 105-113 range.

2. With RR or Safran the offer is to build a new engine using the core of existing engines. In the meanwhile ,offer to use their engine in Tejas. But we picked GE for the later and possibly one of them for the former , that is engine development.

 

[Samej Jangir]

It's not somehow ... They studied this before and with marginal increase they can increase the afterburner thrust by 10-15 % that is inbetween 105-113 range.

2. With RR or Safran the offer is to build a new engine using the core of existing engines. In the meanwhile ,offer to use their engine in Tejas. But we picked GE for the later and possibly one of them for the former , that is engine development.

It is somehow. No one has asked for mere increase of AB section without core/dry thrust increase. Dry thrust of 56kN is nowhere enough. It is pointless to have AB thrust of 115kN with only 56kN from core.

RR, Safran are not the other options. Indigenous development is the best and only option. The idea that India has to compulsorily depend on others is simply absurd. There is no reason why India should not develop an engine on its own without any foreign country. India has been trying and putting efforts for 3 decades and has even developed a stable Kaveri engine. Once a decent engine is made, making other engines will be much easier and quicker

 

[Flying Dagger]

It is somehow. No one has asked for mere increase of AB section without core/dry thrust increase. Dry thrust of 56kN is nowhere enough. It is pointless to have AB thrust of 115kN with only 56kN from core.

RR, Safran are not the other options. Indigenous development is the best and only option. The idea that India has to compulsorily depend on others is simply absurd. There is no reason why India should not develop an engine on its own without any foreign country. India has been trying and putting efforts for 3 decades and has even developed a stable Kaveri engine. Once a decent engine is made, making other engines will be much easier and quicker

1. Don't change Goalposts.

2. I havent found any statement about increase in dry thrust but if they are modifying the core there might be some .

Though it doesn't make much difference as the dry thrust is enough and pretty fuel efficient to keep Tejas like small jet in the air for longer duration and isn't oil hungry.

For AMCA and specially tedbf etc we may need more dry thrust that's why a new engine is planned for that.

And why after burner thrust doesn't matter sir ?

Also the epe engine offers two choice with the new core and changes.

One is either opt for more thrust or pick a longer life of components. So based on what we need we can pick any of that.

3. Indigenous development has kind of failed so did kaveri. That's why we are looking for Safran and RR to help us out from the doldrums we are in.

 

[Samej Jangir]

1. Don't change Goalposts.

2. I havent found any statement about increase in dry thrust but if they are modifying the core there might be some .

Though it doesn't make much difference as the dry thrust is enough and pretty fuel efficient to keep Tejas like small jet in the air for longer duration and isn't oil hungry.

For AMCA and specially tedbf etc we may need more dry thrust that's why a new engine is planned for that.

And why after burner thrust doesn't matter sir ?

Also the epe engine offers two choice with the new core and changes.

One is either opt for more thrust or pick a longer life of components. So based on what we need we can pick any of that.

3. Indigenous development has kind of failed so did kaveri. That's why we are looking for Safran and RR to help us out from the doldrums we are in.

Era of Tejas (Tejas Mk1, Mk1A) is over. There will be no more order for Tejas other than the 83 jets. All future orders will be MWF (Tejas Mk2), TEDBF & AMCA which will have 110kN engines. Tejas is just a stop gap measure to maintain Indian industry, human expertise and supply chain logistics. No one is negotiating engines for Tejas.

Tejas Mk2 will be vastly different as it will have 17.5Ton MToW which will be impossible with 56-58kN dry thrust. India is going for F414 only as a stop gap measure for the initial batch of MWF Mk1 and will likely have lower MToW to the tune of 15tons. Only after 110kN engines are developed and integrated into MWF, will the final form of MWF Mk2 will emerge. After that even the initial batch of MWF Mk1 will be upgraded with new engine during overhauls

Indigenous engine development did not fail. It is simply development lead time. The idea that you must succeed in unrealistic timelines else will be branded failures is absurd. Kaveri engine has been successful and even certified for limited envelope flight by Safran in 2020. Once the engine technology is perfected, making other engines will be much easier step with minor design modifications.

 

[Gyyan]

Era of Tejas (Tejas Mk1, Mk1A) is over. There will be no more order for Tejas other than the 83 jets. All future orders will be MWF (Tejas Mk2), TEDBF & AMCA which will have 110kN engines. Tejas is just a stop gap measure to maintain Indian industry, human expertise and supply chain logistics. No one is negotiating engines for Tejas.

Tejas Mk2 will be vastly different as it will have 17.5Ton MToW which will be impossible with 56-58kN dry thrust. India is going for F414 only as a stop gap measure for the initial batch of MWF Mk1 and will likely have lower MToW to the tune of 15tons. Only after 110kN engines are developed and integrated into MWF, will the final form of MWF Mk2 will emerge. After that even the initial batch of MWF Mk1 will be upgraded with new engine during overhauls

Indigenous engine development did not fail. It is simply development lead time. The idea that you must succeed in unrealistic timelines else will be branded failures is absurd. Kaveri engine has been successful and even certified for limited envelope flight by Safran in 2020. Once the engine technology is perfected, making other engines will be much easier step with minor design modifications.

Cats warrior is basically additional flying weapon station for Tejas right?
Then why not make CFTs for tejas and it will help address the range issue plaging it.

 

[anirban8]

Cats warrior is basically additional flying weapon station for Tejas right?
Then why not make CFTs for tejas and it will help address the range issue plaging it.

That's even more drag issues for a design which already has a lot of complaints of drag

 

[Cheepek]

"...co-produce GE 414 jet engines in India complete with technology transfer..."

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

View attachment 207785

"...co-produce GE 414 jet engines in India complete with technology transfer..."

This makes me think that GE will set up a plant here, with 51% ownership, and 49% for Indian partner (mostly HAL)

 

[jai jaganath]

View attachment 207785

"...co-produce GE 414 jet engines in India complete with technology transfer..."

ToT is just a fancy name
Until no ipr no tech and only Screwdriver-giri
But still better

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

ToT is just a fancy name
Until no ipr no tech and only Screwdriver-giri
But still better

Lmao no
License production is the best deal here, anyone trying to talk about IPR has no idea how companies operate (or what our requirements are)

 

[AnantS]

Aap bekar me garam ho rahe ho
US aapko thanda chod degi

No TOT, If cockless vassals like Germany and Japan don't get ToT, what hope have we lol?

Tot keywords are liberally thrown in articles describing any such deals since independence. So that SJM and Commie trishna among common people can be satiated. Nothing valuable shall be given. We never could learn to build or enhance AL31'sque even when deep TOT was touted during deals 3 decades ago. You can expect even less. The advantage I see is that we might be able to know processes for productionizing western jets.

 

[Blademaster]

Lmao no
License production is the best deal here, anyone trying to talk about IPR has no idea how companies operate (or what our requirements are)

IPR is the only real value here because it means that no nation can sanction India or dictate India on what to do. If it is license production, then India needs to mass produce the heck out of it and build up a supply chain that will last over 40 years in the face of sanctions. Otherwise this is a pointless exercise.