ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Chinmoy]

but the united states has given many waivers for their ships and aircraft,even for those products which cannot be fitted into a proper strategy or use such as LCS,Zumwalt,Ford Class carrier ,F35.i mean almost 30-50 small and big waivers.IAF and army can waiver arjun and tejas issues,these are workhorse systems and not strategic bhramastras that need to be super cool and decisive and they just need to be present in numbers and perform adequately,they dont have to be world beaters in fron of pak and china,but not being there while the chinese assemble workhorse paltforms is crime.

Is relation of US with Canada and Mexico is similar to ours with China and Pakistan?

Their philosophy is Offensive defense where they create and fight war in others land. Ours is Defensive offence where we would have to fight within our land.

US could afford waiver on their products, but could we?

 

[Chinmoy]

I think this is the key assuming the entire system is not corrupt which it is not, otherwise we would already be like Ukraine bitching for others with our own. What is not acceptable is changing goal posts in requirements forever. Specs need to be frozen and delivered and then go for next rounds....MVP should be good enough on paper that can meet expectations with in some parameters.
IAF has to hedge, for all its excitement Tejas is yet to be proven and India is yet to prove itself in building fighters. They should have gotten more Rafale's

This theory of constant goal post shifting is more in media then on ground.

ASQR of Tejas has not been changed since 2014, but FOC order was placed back in 2010. But even when FOC order was placed, there were some serious issues with Tejas which started getting sorted out afterwards. So you can't go on and say that they should have given ASQR even before prototype starts flying.
Remember that our aeronautical industry literally came into being with Tejas. So this kind of setbacks and delays would always be there with a pilot project. Neither you could squarely blame IAF or ADA or HAL for that.
The original ASQR was formalized back in 1985. Now in 2014, when the capability of your adversaries has seen incremental growth, you have to obviously change your requirement. You can't expect to deliver a fighter of 1985 standard in 2014 just for the sake of keeping sanctity of your ASQR.

 

[NutCracker]

I am telling you guys that MK2 is happening real quick..

It's just that IAF brass shouldn't bitch about minute waivers as 5% extra weight or not having 150 rounds gun (Grippen/f35).

 

[jai jaganath]

I am telling you guys that MK2 is happening real quick..

It's just that IAF brass shouldn't bitch about minute waivers as 5% extra weight or not having 150 rounds gun (Grippen/f35).

May I ask how ?

 

[Chinmoy]

Flight computers, EW, close range IR missiles, Radar weren't this advanced back then.

People mention F-4 phantom and F-35 , but they never pay attention to the bullet spread at 1200kmph.

Tell me what roll it will play and how effective it will be because you where yammering about "re-writing the engagement rulebook"

Installing gun on F35 was a school project for them , US could afford idiotic endeavours.

Do you know the best part?
During its development the developers and users thought that since we would be firing AAM from F4's now, there would be no dog fight. But in Vietnam war where they extensively used F4s, they realized that dog fight is a reality and a cannon is must.

Now coming to rewriting engagement rulebook, you yourself mentioned the bullet spread at 1200kmph. But I believe you have not taken into account the work designers have to do with its flight data computers and targeting system. Having a onboard canon and not having it decides a lot when you are framing deployment strategy.
A pod based canon means, when it would be flying with the pod, the airflow around it would be different then what it would be flying without it. Which means additional training + airframe study of the plane. Inflight firing vibration test and required changes are additional headache.

BTW, I believe yesterday or day before yesterday you mentioned something about sniper and bayonet. Here is something for you.

Hope people would not bring in sniper tactics here now.

 

[NutCracker]

Do you know the best part?
During its development the developers and users thought that since we would be firing AAM from F4's now, there would be no dog fight. But in Vietnam war where they extensively used F4s, they realized that dog fight is a reality and a cannon is must.

Now coming to rewriting engagement rulebook, you yourself mentioned the bullet spread at 1200kmph. But I believe you have not taken into account the work designers have to do with its flight data computers and targeting system. Having a onboard canon and not having it decides a lot when you are framing deployment strategy.
A pod based canon means, when it would be flying with the pod, the airflow around it would be different then what it would be flying without it. Which means additional training + airframe study of the plane. Inflight firing vibration test and required changes are additional headache.

BTW, I believe yesterday or day before yesterday you mentioned something about sniper and bayonet. Here is something for you.

View attachment 168925

Hope people would not bring in sniper tactics here now.

You are actually comparing 50 years apart A2AM technologies ??

Tell me how many kills in Desert storm happened with Guns ??
A: 0

How many kills in Ukr-Rus war happened with canon ?

With IR + drone tech this Sniper will get his ASS whooped if he didn't make strike with his primary weapon.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Slick

 

[Chinmoy]

You are actually comparing 50 years apart A2AM technologies ??

Tell me how many kills in Desert storm happened with Guns ??
A: 0

How many kills in Ukr-Rus war happened with canon ?

With IR + drone tech this Sniper will get his ASS whooped if he didn't make strike with his primary weapon.

1965 - 1982 ( Vietnam and Arab- Israel conflict ). F4 was flying at this time. :
Total aerial kill achieved : 528
Out of these, kill by cannons : 144
kill by WVR : 308
kill by BVR at BVR range : 4

1991 Gulf war :
Total aerial kill achieved : 41
Kill by Cannon : 2
Kill by WVR : 10
Kill by BVR at BVR range : 16
This seems good enough, but the catch is, out of 15 WVRAAM fired, 10 found targets whereas out of 47 BVRAAM fired, only 16 found their target.

Latest in 1999, 6 BVRAAM which includes AIM-120, AIM 7, AIM-54, were fired at Iraqi Mig-25s by F-15 and F-14s. All missed.

Now going by your logic, since all the kills are being done by WVRAAMs in modern era, we should not worry about integrating BVRAAM missiles in fighters. Now would it be logical?

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Slick

Par asli samaan kab bahar aayega??

 

[omaebakabaka]

This theory of constant goal post shifting is more in media then on ground.

ASQR of Tejas has not been changed since 2014, but FOC order was placed back in 2010. But even when FOC order was placed, there were some serious issues with Tejas which started getting sorted out afterwards. So you can't go on and say that they should have given ASQR even before prototype starts flying.
Remember that our aeronautical industry literally came into being with Tejas. So this kind of setbacks and delays would always be there with a pilot project. Neither you could squarely blame IAF or ADA or HAL for that.
The original ASQR was formalized back in 1985. Now in 2014, when the capability of your adversaries has seen incremental growth, you have to obviously change your requirement. You can't expect to deliver a fighter of 1985 standard in 2014 just for the sake of keeping sanctity of your ASQR.

Real details should always be behind the curtain available to only those that can make these decisions assuming there is some integrity left in the system preserved for most sacred lines and things. With that said, I always said and thought IAF should hedge and slowly effect the ration of domestic to imports over time with enough validation. I agree with your view point in general but some of it can be efficiently managed vs how some other countries are doing;

 

[NutCracker]

1965 - 1982 ( Vietnam and Arab- Israel conflict ). F4 was flying at this time. :
Total aerial kill achieved : 528
Out of these, kill by cannons : 144
kill by WVR : 308
kill by BVR at BVR range : 4

1991 Gulf war :
Total aerial kill achieved : 41
Kill by Cannon : 2
Kill by WVR : 10
Kill by BVR at BVR range : 16

Both of those canon kills were helicopters and during the end of the war in a barely contested airspace with non existing SAM.

And one of those two ,was done by slow af A10..

Imagine if canon was that useless back then how useless it will be now on a supersonic fighter jet.

This seems good enough, but the catch is, out of 15 WVRAAM fired, 10 found targets whereas out of 47 BVRAAM fired, only 16 found their target.

The sole reason for the Existence of BVRAAM is that you can avoid head-on fight.

And since you've already provided accuracy stats of WVRAAM in 1991 , i don't see why it will go beyond that in 2022.

If you target is SLOW as helicopters then your WVRAAM won't miss , and if your target is a jet which can evade WVRAAM, then your canon is USELESS .

UNDERSTOOD ?

 

[lcafanboy]

 

[Vamsi]

I read the tender documents.

Delivery of first set is 32-34 weeks after placement of order. That's 8 months from October when they may place the order since the tender is to be opened in September '22. That implies that HAL will not have be able to install and have functioning canards on the Tejas Mk2 prototype till June-July 2023 at the very least. If a roll-out happens prior to that, it'll very likely be ceremonial, with the powering up of the fighter and ground tests that follow, to happen in the 3rd quarter of 2023 (Oct-Dec '23).

Can someone tell how many bearings are required for each Tejas Mk2 set of canards? I felt it was a set of 2 each of I/B and O/B on each side for a total of 4 on each Tejas Mk2. That may give an idea as to how many Tejas Mk2 fighters HAL is planning to produce each year, given that they're looking for 126 I/B and O/B bearings per year from 2026 till 2029 and 63 I/B and O/B bearings in 2030. And as per the stated plan, production starts from 2026 and ends in 2030!

To me it seems like HAL plans for 24 Tejas Mk2s from 2026 till 2029 and 12 in 2030 for a total of 108 which is 6 squadrons worth.

Another good part is that this is a two bid process. First the bidder has to submit the technical bid and only if it is cleared, does the price bid even come up. Especially important in a fail-safe item like the bearings for the canards.

Looks like all Mk-2s will be delivered by 2030

 

[Lonewolf]

Looks like all Mk-2s will be delivered by 2030

@NutCracker what happened nigga

 

[NutCracker]

@NutCracker what happened nigga

Too slow.. TBH i still doubt 2030 timeline.

 

[flanker99]

Looks like all Mk-2s will be delivered by 2030

No deliveries would start by 2030

 

[jai jaganath]

No deliveries would start by 2030

Either he is mistaken or got wrong info if first flight will on 2023 then production will be earlier than what he has written
I think production for 108 nos will be completed by 2030

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

So, first flight in 2023 but which month it will fly. Also based on Production of HAL, after first flight if order is placed it will take 3 years i.e) 2026.

What 2030 signifies here? If all 108 will be delivered by that time, then 27 planes per year. Highly doubtful to ramp up this number since the order is less.

 

[ShukantC]

Looks like all Mk-2s will be delivered by 2030

I think its production ready by 2030's this is logical if we see the estimated timeline:
Nov/Dec 21 : CDR completed after which manufacturing started
late 2022 - early 2023 : roll out of first prototype
late 2023 - early 2024 : First flight
2024-2030 - flight testing period of 6 years (F22- 6yrs, F35- 8-9 yrs, Rafale - 8-9yrs)
2030's - production ready

I hope they can run an accelerated testing timeline but 2030 is not bad, but our fleet number will be really affected

 

[jai jaganath]

I think its production ready by 2030's this is logical if we see the estimated timeline:
Nov/Dec 21 : CDR completed after which manufacturing started
late 2022 - early 2023 : roll out of first prototype
late 2023 - early 2024 : First flight
2024-2030 - flight testing period of 6 years (F22- 6yrs, F35- 8-9 yrs, Rafale - 8-9yrs)
2030's - production ready

I hope they can run an accelerated testing timeline but 2030 is not bad, but our fleet number will be really affected

Sorry say bro it was always said that production will start by 2028
Moreover many subsystems are bring tested using mk1 which was not in the case of f22 rafales and f 35
Let's I might be wrong
Just flowing with optimism
Let's wait for official confirmation if he is right then a great set back for us