ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Rassil Krishnan]

Ofcourse its needed.

Onboard canon in a fighter is just like a sidearm for an Infantry man. Its the last item anyone would use, but it doesn't mean that you could set aside the sidearm training before giving the badge to the soldier.

We all know what happened with F-35 which is using the same pod-based canon like Tejas.

but the united states has given many waivers for their ships and aircraft,even for those products which cannot be fitted into a proper strategy or use such as LCS,Zumwalt,Ford Class carrier ,F35.i mean almost 30-50 small and big waivers.IAF and army can waiver arjun and tejas issues,these are workhorse systems and not strategic bhramastras that need to be super cool and decisive and they just need to be present in numbers and perform adequately,they dont have to be world beaters in fron of pak and china,but not being there while the chinese assemble workhorse paltforms is crime.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Aren't we all same here?

Recent F-INSAS showed us what our line of thought is. IN in past were inducting ships without weapon and we had issue with that. But IAF wants a fighter with all capability from day 1 and again we have problem with that.

Order for 83 Mk1A was signed even before the planned Python firing was done from it. Onboard gun is still not being tested. After its integration and tests, we have to rewrite the engagement rule book all over again. But I think no one is even thinking about it. All we need to see 123 Mk1A and equal number of Mk2 in service.

I think this is the key assuming the entire system is not corrupt which it is not, otherwise we would already be like Ukraine bitching for others with our own. What is not acceptable is changing goal posts in requirements forever. Specs need to be frozen and delivered and then go for next rounds....MVP should be good enough on paper that can meet expectations with in some parameters.
IAF has to hedge, for all its excitement Tejas is yet to be proven and India is yet to prove itself in building fighters. They should have gotten more Rafale's

 

[Blademaster]

IAF has to hedge, for all its excitement Tejas is yet to be proven and India is yet to prove itself in building fighters. They should have gotten more Rafale's

That would essentially kill the Tejas program. India does not have enough money to do both in meaningful quantities.

 

[omaebakabaka]

That would essentially kill the Tejas program. India does not have enough money to do both in meaningful quantities.

Another 36 would not bankrupt India nor cut the Tejas program especially since none of them will be delivered for few years especially considering the goal to become 5T economy....Now we are severely lacking and 2 squads is another kichidi. Indian armed forces seems to love making the kichidi of everything

 

[Blademaster]

Another 36 would not bankrupt India nor cut the Tejas program especially since none of them will be delivered for few years especially considering the goal to become 5T economy....Now we are severely lacking and 2 squads is another kichidi. Indian armed forces seems to love making the kichidi of everything

Personally I feel if you do not get the Rafales in numbers of 100s it is an useless fighter program and you are better off putting the money into Tejas that can be produced in the hundreds. That will make up for any Rafale.

You can get 4 Tejas for the price of one Rafale. So for 36 Rafales, you can get 144 Tejas. That is 6 squadrons worth.

Quantity has its own quality! - Russian proverb

 

[omaebakabaka]

Personally I feel if you do not get the Rafales in numbers of 100s it is an useless fighter program and you are better off putting the money into Tejas that can be produced in the hundreds. That will make up for any Rafale.

You can get 4 Tejas for the price of one Rafale. So for 36 Rafales, you can get 144 Tejas. That is 6 squadrons worth.

Quantity has its own quality! - Russian proverb

Let Tejas establish some basic records in real world when the opportunity comes up and so far it was not used in that capacity in any theater when little ops opportunity came up, Rafale comes from Mirage legacy and is certainly better than Tejas by a mile as they are different class(any one that argues this has no standing evidence to say so) and Mirages are more than proven around the world. We made the same mistake when we got the mirages and ended up getting too few and now we repeat the same thing with RAfale. Tejas program should not be tied to Rafale at this point, its too soon to make that connection.

 

[Blademaster]

Let Tejas establish some basic records in real world when the opportunity comes up and so far it was not used in that capacity in any theater when little ops opportunity came up, Rafale comes from Mirage legacy and is certainly better than Tejas by a mile as they are different class(any one that argues this has no standing evidence to say so) and Mirages are more than proven around the world. We made the same mistake when we got the mirages and ended up getting too few and now we repeat the same thing with RAfale. Tejas program should not be tied to Rafale at this point, its too soon to make that connection.

Then can we get the Rafales in the hundred? I would support it if we buy 108 more Rafales. That gives us 6 squadrons total and provide IAF enough numbers to make a difference with the platform.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Then can we get the Rafales in the hundred? I would support it if we buy 108 more Rafales. That gives us 6 squadrons total and provide IAF enough numbers to make a difference with the platform.

I think atleast 4 squads would cover us pretty well against China and Pak in all sectors taking the pressure to the other side and making the logistics worth it while waiting for mk2 (which will take time to be operational for sure). Predators are useless purchases at this point in time instead of spending on sats to monitor Chinese activity. Monitoring IOR is important but no major movements from Chinese go undetected. Rest of the countries aren't a big threat for us.

What I say is worth less than a dime but it is fairly evident that Indian Armed forces are a kichidi in a worst way from small arms to fighters and subs.

 

[IndianHawk]

indranil @ BRF is talking about a tender for bearing for canards of mwf / lca mk2.

Has anybody seen such a tender??

 

[IndianHawk]

Personally I feel if you do not get the Rafales in numbers of 100s it is an useless fighter program and you are better off putting the money into Tejas that can be produced in the hundreds. That will make up for any Rafale.

You can get 4 Tejas for the price of one Rafale. So for 36 Rafales, you can get 144 Tejas. That is 6 squadrons worth.

Quantity has its own quality! - Russian proverb

And a single rafale can be as capable as 2-3 lca mk1 in the battle field. That is not to take away anything from lca but rafale is in different league all together . Mwf will be much closer to rafale but will be much more costly than mk1. Tedbf if built would be on par with rafale. Which is a decade away from being operational.

Besides rafale can carry nuclear payload and deploy scalp type missile today. Bramhos ng is still 6-7 years away for lca .

We need both. Atleast 80 rafales are needed of which 36 are already here . So another batch of rafale should suffice for now. Than we should double down mwf and AMCA.

 

[MirageBlue]

indranil @ BRF is talking about a tender for bearing for canards of mwf / lca mk2.

Has anybody seen such a tender??

I read the tender documents.

Delivery of first set is 32-34 weeks after placement of order. That's 8 months from October when they may place the order since the tender is to be opened in September '22. That implies that HAL will not have be able to install and have functioning canards on the Tejas Mk2 prototype till June-July 2023 at the very least. If a roll-out happens prior to that, it'll very likely be ceremonial, with the powering up of the fighter and ground tests that follow, to happen in the 3rd quarter of 2023 (Oct-Dec '23).

Can someone tell how many bearings are required for each Tejas Mk2 set of canards? I felt it was a set of 2 each of I/B and O/B on each side for a total of 4 on each Tejas Mk2. That may give an idea as to how many Tejas Mk2 fighters HAL is planning to produce each year, given that they're looking for 126 I/B and O/B bearings per year from 2026 till 2029 and 63 I/B and O/B bearings in 2030. And as per the stated plan, production starts from 2026 and ends in 2030!

To me it seems like HAL plans for 24 Tejas Mk2s from 2026 till 2029 and 12 in 2030 for a total of 108 which is 6 squadrons worth.

Another good part is that this is a two bid process. First the bidder has to submit the technical bid and only if it is cleared, does the price bid even come up. Especially important in a fail-safe item like the bearings for the canards.

 

[WARREN SS]

Well add on 36 Rafale is best way forward
If we want Large Mk2 orders

But if IAF is really want to spend big bucks like 24 billion $ in a single tender MFRA

Better go for 100+ F-35 like Japanese

Get one step ahead on PLAAF rather always one step catching up

Wasting so much money on 4+++ gen is mere stupidity

Also

All this Anti America conspiracy is stupendous

As are whole Indeginious industry right now depends
Of GE aviation engines

 

[flanker99]

Well add on 36 Rafale is best way forward
If we want Large Mk2 orders

But if IAF is really want to spend big bucks like 24 billion $ in a single tender MFRA

Better go for 100+ F-35 like Japanese

Get one step ahead on PLAAF rather always one step catching up

Wasting so much money on 4+++ gen is mere stupidity

Also

All this Anti America conspiracy is stupendous

As are whole Indeginious industry right now depends
Of GE aviation engines

f35 for india either will be a shell that not as capable as the one's for US and allis or it will be a black box that we can never touch or exploit fully ...US mic has mind boggling lv of control over f35

 

[Chinmoy]

Agree it might be needed . But its importance is exaggerated .

Correct analogy would be artillery man carrying side arm. Or bayonet for sniper.

Designers of F-4 have learned the lesson in a hard way possible.

 

[Vamsi]

I read the tender documents.

Delivery of first set is 32-34 weeks after placement of order. That's 8 months from October when they may place the order since the tender is to be opened in September '22. That implies that HAL will not have be able to install and have functioning canards on the Tejas Mk2 prototype till June-July 2023 at the very least. If a roll-out happens prior to that, it'll very likely be ceremonial, with the powering up of the fighter and ground tests that follow, to happen in the 3rd quarter of 2023 (Oct-Dec '23).

Can someone tell how many bearings are required for each Tejas Mk2 set of canards? I felt it was a set of 2 each of I/B and O/B on each side for a total of 4 on each Tejas Mk2. That may give an idea as to how many Tejas Mk2 fighters HAL is planning to produce each year, given that they're looking for 126 I/B and O/B bearings per year from 2026 till 2029 and 63 I/B and O/B bearings in 2030. And as per the stated plan, production starts from 2026 and ends in 2030!

To me it seems like HAL plans for 24 Tejas Mk2s from 2026 till 2029 and 12 in 2030 for a total of 108 which is 6 squadrons worth.

Another good part is that this is a two bid process. First the bidder has to submit the technical bid and only if it is cleared, does the price bid even come up. Especially important in a fail-safe item like the bearings for the canards.

So, as per that tender Mk-2 production starts in 2026?
If yes, then they must place the order next year itself, also are they planning to induct it before even getting IOC like F-35s

 

[omaebakabaka]

So, as per that tender Mk-2 production starts in 2026?
If yes, then they must place the order next year itself, also are they planning to induct it before even getting IOC like F-35s

I think once engines are figured out (GE or what not), we already mastered the aerodynamics and integration of systems to a decent degree....risks is drastically reduced and take the pressure to HAL and have them live up to it and earn their pay.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Well add on 36 Rafale is best way forward
If we want Large Mk2 orders

But if IAF is really want to spend big bucks like 24 billion $ in a single tender MFRA

Better go for 100+ F-35 like Japanese

Get one step ahead on PLAAF rather always one step catching up

Wasting so much money on 4+++ gen is mere stupidity

Also

All this Anti America conspiracy is stupendous

As are whole Indeginious industry right now depends
Of GE aviation engines

F-35s are bad investments, takes too much per op hour and we will get watered down one and not sure if its even proven? We will not be able to integrate our inventory of missiles and other systems that we invested in taking us couple of steps back and slowing the painfully achieved progress. Then add the myth of invincibility of western weapons in Ukraine broken cheaply....granted we are neither Russia nor Ukraine but every modern American or Western platform is a web of complex nonsense that is breaking down in real ops and costs a ton. It works for them as they are a gang and full spectrum warfare with global reach but we are not.

We have to go domestic "just enough" and generation behind but importantly cheap enough for us to afford. Any other formula is not sustainable for us.

 

[Blademaster]

And a single rafale can be as capable as 2-3 lca mk1 in the battle field. That is not to take away anything from lca but rafale is in different league all together . Mwf will be much closer to rafale but will be much more costly than mk1. Tedbf if built would be on par with rafale. Which is a decade away from being operational.

Besides rafale can carry nuclear payload and deploy scalp type missile today. Bramhos ng is still 6-7 years away for lca .

We need both. Atleast 80 rafales are needed of which 36 are already here . So another batch of rafale should suffice for now. Than we should double down mwf and AMCA.

I prefer to get 108 more rafales ( we need 6 squadrons of 24 units each of Rafales. I do not agree with 18 units per squadron) and then double down on LCA Mk 2 and AMCA.

 

[NutCracker]

Designers of F-4 have learned the lesson in a hard way possible.

Flight computers, EW, close range IR missiles, Radar weren't this advanced back then.

People mention F-4 phantom and F-35 , but they never pay attention to the bullet spread at 1200kmph.

Tell me what roll it will play and how effective it will be because you where yammering about "re-writing the engagement rulebook"

Installing gun on F35 was a school project for them , US could afford idiotic endeavours.

 

[MirageBlue]

So, as per that tender Mk-2 production starts in 2026?
If yes, then they must place the order next year itself, also are they planning to induct it before even getting IOC like F-35s

It doesn't state that Tejas Mk2 production starts in 2026, but it states that the requirement for the canard bearings is 126 Inboard and 126 Outboard bearings from 2026 onwards till 2029 and drops to 63 I/B and 63 O/B in 2030. So I inferred from it that the production must be starting from 2026 onwards at 24 p/a and ending in 2030 for 108 Tejas Mk2s.