ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Ar.gaurav28]

laser weapons are far from reality
(at least 6 to 8 years for usa,hence 10 years min. for india) lets focus on all other state of the art electronic warfare and sensors on amca

This is the future and a cheap one in terms of maintenance & cost per kill.
Indian Govt should invest in it right now!! This what any powerful nation will do plan for 10-20 years ahead!
implications are endless... it could be the replacement for iron dome that Israel used to defend against the rockets launched at it!
only thing that could protect from hypersonic weapons as Russia &China already have them that’s why USA investing so heavily on it!

How much power does a laser weapon need? I read that the US Laser Weapon System Demonstrator is a 150KW beast. I think that is about twice as much energy as an F-16 generates.

Hard to say or assume right now but yeah will be miniaturised compared to the 60kw+ helios system for their navy!
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/cont...42.240564952.1621951908-1497180627.1621951908

they are designing a laser pod for f16 let’s see what will be it’s specs!

Well design and development of intelligent power management system of AMCA has been completed.

All could be adjusted in the mk2 version as we would have the important asset i.e the engine around which everything revolves
They should just hurry in rolling out mk1 asap!! No correction required

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Let me put my 2 cents out here. I think the whole TVC hoopla is a bit overrated. As far as I have heard, TVC surely does help with the maneuvering but not to the extent it's made out to be, it's got more of a airshow application rather than combat, it's only allowed to be used in certain maneuvers and I am just basing it on the comments of an American f-18 navy pilot and instructor who has done his fair share of dogfights with the RMAFs Su 30s. Somehow I agree with him.

TVC is more useful particularly in close combat and dog fight. However, the modern missiles like Python 5 and HMD can compensate the advantage of TVC as the SRAAM can be fired without completly pointing the nose towards the enemy plane.

 

[MonaLazy]

don't see what's wrong with the numbers... And I don't get why it can't be -20°/+30°.

You'll have to elaborate

Please look carefully at the figure below-

LED angle is -ve always, LEU is +ve always- that is maths 101. Another way to say it is that if you rotate the canard in a +ve angle the leading edge would go up, not down.

Hopefully this makes it clearer-

Now carefully see the LEU & LED angles below-

A -20° deflection will be LED, not LEU as specc'd out above- hence my thinking it is either typo or over sight.

If you reverse the signs +20° (LEU) to -30° (LED) it is easy to see why LEU angle is lesser, because the trailing edge of the canard must stay clear of main wing extensions as you pointed earlier. In LED/TEU there is nothing obstructing canard rotation.

 

[Bleh]

Please look carefully at the figure below-

View attachment 91681

LED angle is -ve always, LEU is +ve always- that is maths 101. Another way to say it is that if you rotate the canard in a +ve angle the leading edge would go up, not down.

Hopefully this makes it clearer-

Now carefully see the LEU & LED angles below-

View attachment 91679

A -20° deflection will be LED, not LEU as specc'd out above- hence my thinking it is either typo or over sight.

If you reverse the signs +20° (LEU) to -30° (LED) it is easy to see why LEU angle is lesser, because the trailing edge of the canard must stay clear of main wing extensions as you pointed earlier. In LED/TEU there is nothing obstructing canard rotation.

Oh right, they fucked up the terminology!

@Kuntal let's just keep ±30°... Screw this.

 

[MonaLazy]

let's just keep ±30°

To me +20°(LEU) to -30°(LED) looks like what ADA probably wanted to convey.

 

[MonaLazy]

View attachment 91660

And (2) that MWF's max possible AoA (without TVC ofcourse) would no more than be 40°.View attachment 91664

That's some good stuff! Please share source of these images.. or atleast the same image without any annotation.

The landing position in that infographic states clearly after nose wheel touch down on runway the canard goes full -30°, pushing the plane to the ground + wheel brakes + leading edge flaps + elevons + air brakes all help slow down the air craft. Amazing.. just the information I was looking for & hat tip to folks at ADA.

Also evident from eye ball physics that the canard position allows even more aggressive LED angles (there is nothing preventing forward rotation) & full face of canards can be presented to air flow once on the ground to shed air speed even faster. Have been trying, unsuccessfully so far, to find air brake only surface or even a drag chute on Rafale. Haven't found any which makes me think maybe the Rafale doesn't have or need it.

Wishlist item for ADA for Mk2: Please do away with dedicated air brakes & it's hydraulic jacks. Use canards + wheel brakes + leading edge flaps + elevons for braking upon landing and give us a few hundred kilos saved there as payload. It is optimizations like this that allow the Rafale- a plane designed in the 1980s to carry more payload+fuel than its own empty weight.

 

[Bleh]

That's some good stuff! Please share source of these images.. or atleast the same image without any annotation.

The landing position in that infographic states clearly after nose wheel touch down on runway the canard goes full -30°, pushing the plane to the ground + wheel brakes + leading edge flaps + elevons + air brakes all help slow down the air craft. Amazing.. just the information I was looking for & hat tip to folks at ADA.

Also evident from eye ball physics that the canard position allows even more aggressive LED angles (there is nothing preventing forward rotation) & full face of canards can be presented to air flow once on the ground to shed air speed even faster. Have been trying, unsuccessfully so far, to find air brake only surface or even a drag chute on Rafale. Haven't found any which makes me think maybe the Rafale doesn't have or need it.

Wishlist item for ADA for Mk2: Please do away with dedicated air brakes & it's hydraulic jacks. Use canards + wheel brakes + leading edge flaps + elevons for braking upon landing and give us a few hundred kilos saved there as payload. It is optimizations like this that allow the Rafale- a plane designed in the 1980s to carry more payload+fuel than its own empty weight.

1. Just revers image search..

2. the infographics is of gripen, LCA/MWF has 4 airbrakes (one on landing-gear act similarly). The Gripen's style inefficient & reduces the platform's lifecycle. ADA won't do such unnecessary overstressing, as the have other options.

3. No the LEU was limited by that mini-LERX. That's why its been snipped a bit.

 

[flanker99]

WTF!!!

 

[Vamsi]

WTF!!!

Is this why IAF chief said the procurement of MK-2 depends on AMCA ?

 

[warriorextreme]

WTF!!!

That will be a blunder of epic proportions. Our brave young pilots are dying in those Mig-21s due to this inaction.

 

[IndianHawk]

WTF!!!

Ofcourse there is no certainty . Mk2 hasn't even flown yet. But the program is sanctioned by government and prototype building has started . Numbers may vary but iaf has no other choice to fill numbers.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

Ofcourse there is no certainty . Mk2 hasn't even flown yet. But the program is sanctioned by government and prototype building has started . Numbers may vary but iaf has no other choice to fill numbers.

True and even HAL needs to deliver a capable fighter in time! Till now they haven’t proved themselves.
infact i think this is why mmrca 2.0 is still on the table if HAL fails to deliver they have it as backup!
orelse just order 36 more rafale f4 and rest from HAL(170+)

 

[MirageBlue]

Everything depends on how the MRFA contest goes. As of now, the MoD has not yet even accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for the 114 MRFA tender but the IAF's focus is on getting the AoN. Without that, no RFP can be released.

If the MoD successfully delays the RFP release AND the evaluations take a leisurely long time AND if the GoI signs a contract for an additional 36 to 48 Rafales, then the chances of the Tejas Mk2 brighten since the GoI will then have even less urgency to move ahead with the MRFA. Plus the IAF will also be somewhat placated since they'd have reached nearly 3/4th the number of MRCAs that they originally wanted, either 72 or 84 Rafales to form 4 or 5 squadrons of the type. Then, the MRFA tender may lose steam.

If however, the MRFA contract picks up pace then the IAF may be willing to sacrifice the Tejas Mk2 to get it's hands on more of a proven type that it will pick as the MRFA..

Their logic could be :

- 73 Tejas Mk1A and 10 trainers joining by 2028/29 - that's 4 squadrons to fully replace the MiG-21 Bison fleet
- 33 Su30MKI and MiG-29UPGs joining by 2025 - 1 more MiG-29UPG squadron and the 12 MKIs will likely be distributed amongst existing squadrons, TACDE and ASTE.
- 114 MRFA, out of which nearly 90 odd to be built within India at a new facility - 6 squadrons but these will still be in delivery in the 2030s given that assembling them in India will take time. I would assume delivery will be on-going for at least 8-9 years after the contract signature.

Between these 3 their immediate needs will be met for up to 2030 and then they will look to move on to the AMCA Mk1.

As Jaguar DARIN 2s then start to retire, followed by the oldest MiG-29UPGs to be followed by the oldest Mirage-2000s, the IAF will then need to bulk up again. And they will then want more of the MRFA to replace those retiring types since it will still be being delivered in the early 2030s.

The ADA/HAL combine has to be able to put the Tejas Mk2 through it's flight trials and get it to FOC state by 2029-2030 or so, just in time for it to replace the Tejas Mk1A on the assembly lines at HAL. That will then be the basis of pressure on the GoI and MoD to provide a continued assembly line for HAL, since AMCA production will still be a few years away.

Which is why as I see it, the GoI MUST sign up for 36 to 48 more Rafales and just end this Make in India MRFA circus. The GoI must get the IAF to commit to an indigenous MRFA in return, either the Tejas Mk2 or the ORCA, or both given how huge the IAF's requirements will be in 2030s and 2040s as the oldest Su-30MKIs start to retire.

 

[IndianHawk]

True and even HAL needs to deliver a capable fighter in time! Till now they haven’t proved themselves.
infact i think this is why mmrca 2.0 is still on the table if HAL fails to deliver they have it as backup!
orelse just order 36 more rafale f4 and rest from HAL(170+)

Mmrca will happen regardless of MWF. The logic of mmrca was to have a battle ready mature fighter in the middle weight category.

MWF will come on time as material for prototype is already being procured. But even if we start induction of MWF from 2026 it will take time for it to integrate with all kinds of weapons and tactics.

Even then it might not match what Rafale offers in terms of spectra ew and gan aesa by F4 standard.

So I guess we will end up with 100+ Rafale at the very least. Rafale is now our prime fighter untill AMCA comes along and AMCA will only mature by 2035 at the earliest. We need rafales to lead the charge till then on both fronts for which atleast 100+ are needed.

 

[MonaLazy]

Mmrca will happen regardless of MWF.

Where's the money?

In any case this 40 squadrons size is a mirage (pun intended) the IAF is chasing. Even 6 sqns of Tejas where each fighter is 1.5-2x capable (multi-role, deadlier weaponry, more range with IFR, more loiter time with OBOGS) than the Migs it replaces- then you have inducted 9-12 sqns at previous capability. Why are we doing a one for one replacement comparison?

IMO it's either the Mk2 or MRFA- not both, because money. So while the IAF may want the more capable/mature/proven Rafale, secretly hoping ADA/HAL deliver the goods with an ASQR compliant desi Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MWF = DMMRCA) IAF wanted since the 2000s.

As for meeting real and present threats. India, China & Pak are nuclear- so no giant aircraft armadas, reminiscent of scenes from world wars, may take on each other. Any action will be similar to one-off bombing/skirmish like Feb 19 incidents. Even if you have only limited aircraft with a decisive edge over the enemy- you will win the day.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

The ADA/HAL combine has to be able to put the Tejas Mk2 through it's flight trials and get it to FOC state by 2029-2030 or so, just in time for it to replace the Tejas Mk1A on the assembly lines at HAL. That will then be the basis of pressure on the GoI and MoD to provide a continued assembly line for HAL, since AMCA production will still be a few years away.

Well with 16 fighters per year from 2022-23, I hope to see them finish mk1a contract within 2027-28, there is also a delay penalty clause for that very reason!
and in the same year if they could start the production for tejas mk2.

Which is why as I see it, the GoI MUST sign up for 36 to 48 more Rafales and just end this Make in India MRFA circus. The GoI must get the IAF to commit to an indigenous MRFA in return, either the Tejas Mk2 or the ORCA, or both given how huge the IAF's requirements will be in 2030s and 2040s as the oldest Su-30MKIs start to retire.

Thats a good thought but the only problem is nobody trust HAL thus they have this tender floating as fail safe! If HAL fails to deliver or China & Pak suddenly decide to become extremely hostile & to play on everyones greed so to get the contract of $15-20billion deal everyone is in favour of you!
Well to replace su30mki will need another heavyweight fighter maybe orca but mk2 never!

 

[Spitfire9]

Everything depends on how the MRFA contest goes. As of now, the MoD has not yet even accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for the 114 MRFA tender but the IAF's focus is on getting the AoN. Without that, no RFP can be released.

If the MoD successfully delays the RFP release AND the evaluations take a leisurely long time AND if the GoI signs a contract for an additional 36 to 48 Rafales, then the chances of the Tejas Mk2 brighten since the GoI will then have even less urgency to move ahead with the MRFA. Plus the IAF will also be somewhat placated since they'd have reached nearly 3/4th the number of MRCAs that they originally wanted, either 72 or 84 Rafales to form 4 or 5 squadrons of the type. Then, the MRFA tender may lose steam.

If however, the MRFA contract picks up pace then the IAF may be willing to sacrifice the Tejas Mk2 to get it's hands on more of a proven type that it will pick as the MRFA..

Their logic could be :

- 73 Tejas Mk1A and 10 trainers joining by 2028/29 - that's 4 squadrons to fully replace the MiG-21 Bison fleet
- 33 Su30MKI and MiG-29UPGs joining by 2025 - 1 more MiG-29UPG squadron and the 12 MKIs will likely be distributed amongst existing squadrons, TACDE and ASTE.
- 114 MRFA, out of which nearly 90 odd to be built within India at a new facility - 6 squadrons but these will still be in delivery in the 2030s given that assembling them in India will take time. I would assume delivery will be on-going for at least 8-9 years after the contract signature.

Between these 3 their immediate needs will be met for up to 2030 and then they will look to move on to the AMCA Mk1.

As Jaguar DARIN 2s then start to retire, followed by the oldest MiG-29UPGs to be followed by the oldest Mirage-2000s, the IAF will then need to bulk up again. And they will then want more of the MRFA to replace those retiring types since it will still be being delivered in the early 2030s.

The ADA/HAL combine has to be able to put the Tejas Mk2 through it's flight trials and get it to FOC state by 2029-2030 or so, just in time for it to replace the Tejas Mk1A on the assembly lines at HAL. That will then be the basis of pressure on the GoI and MoD to provide a continued assembly line for HAL, since AMCA production will still be a few years away.

Which is why as I see it, the GoI MUST sign up for 36 to 48 more Rafales and just end this Make in India MRFA circus. The GoI must get the IAF to commit to an indigenous MRFA in return, either the Tejas Mk2 or the ORCA, or both given how huge the IAF's requirements will be in 2030s and 2040s as the oldest Su-30MKIs start to retire.

The country set out to build a fast jet design and production capability late in the 20th century, decades ago. It is the 2020's now and there are various projects underway.

I find this idea of declining to expand production capacity above 16 aircraft a year, well, plain dumb. Mk2 cannot start being assembled until the couple of buildings used to create an Indian military fast jet industry are available because they are being used for Mk1A production? Come on, now! Let's just imagine that the unthinkable happens and Mk1A production is behind schedule. What happens then? Mk2 is delayed even before production is started, so some very costly foreign fighters are bought to make up for the shortfall in Mk2 deliveries (which possibly cannibalises the number of Mk2's to be produced). I hazard that the extra cost of doing that far outweighs the 'savings' made by trying to run production sequentially through just two FAL's.

I would love to see a little more common sense financial commitment to getting the Indian fighter jet industry off the ground! Having the capacity - if all goes well - to produce one squadron's worth of aircraft a year is not enough.

 

[kamaal]

Aero India is an event where all the babus in black coat come to entice the younger defense enthusiast. Meanwhile the old and experienced enthusiast know the drill. Some are excited just based on scaled model, numbers and graphics in pdf documents thats where HAL has improved. In the background, hal has just begun the tenders so forget that we'll get 1st 1:1 model by end of 2021.

Remember MK2 was conceptualized a decade ago when I was in college and then people used to coin figures like 250 LCA will be mfged by 2025, 200 MK2s will come by 2030,etc. Simply putting HAL/ADA stays the same only they hired new PR guys who knows how to keep the excitement level high on forums. On ground things are not moving according to the set deadlines.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

Mmrca will happen regardless of MWF. The logic of mmrca was to have a battle ready mature fighter in the middle weight category.

MWF will come on time as material for prototype is already being procured. But even if we start induction of MWF from 2026 it will take time for it to integrate with all kinds of weapons and tactics.

Even then it might not match what Rafale offers in terms of spectra ew and gan aesa by F4 standard.

So I guess we will end up with 100+ Rafale at the very least. Rafale is now our prime fighter untill AMCA comes along and AMCA will only mature by 2035 at the earliest. We need rafales to lead the charge till then on both fronts for which atleast 100+ are needed.

Bro let’s play with just no.
My Assumption. Yours Assumption
su30mki- 272 272
tejas - 123 123
MMRCA- 36 (F4)*. 110
mk2 - 170. 170
amca - 120. 120
rafale - 36. 36

———————————————————
total - 721 + 36*. 831

not even counting more su30 & mig29 being procured!
roughly taking 18 fighters per squadron that be 40.
and in media there is a talk about 2 more squadrons of rafale f4 standard
thus, making the magical figure of 42 possible.
please don’t say we will go for 48 squadrons as 42 is an old estimate!(though i wish it was possible)
&
one more thing as rightly said by @MonaLazy !
think about it, the govt delaying 15000cr/$1 billion funding for their most anticipated fighter AMCA
From where will they be arranging 15-20billion??
with that same amount Indian govt. can complete both their mk2 & AMCA a total of 300 fighters!!
End of the day it all comes down to money...

 

[Roland55]

Wouldn't be advisable to partner with another country to co-produce the Mk.2 if there are budget problems?