ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Filtercoffee]

Any chance of the MK 2 having Klimov TVCN(s)? By the way when a date of release is given, please consider it only for internal staff; who have then the choice of ideal date for public reveal. I am really saddened by public response owing to the complete classified nature of projects being discussed and waited for.

 

[Bleh]

DRDO 110KN Engine Plan, Puzzles adding-up

 

[ForigenSanghi]

Look at this shit... Yusuf is colluding with coupta and shilling for foreign suppliers. BC India ke yeh sabse badi problem hai thora sa paisa khaa ke desh bechne ko tayaar hai sare.

On a positive side, he has been hammered by the public which now seems to understand far more about defence procurement.

Also the fact that there is active lobbying going on to ditch Tejas MK2 implies that it is close to development and is going to be a threat to Grippen-E not just in India but around the world. I fecking hope MoD and ADA stick to it.

This guy has a sensible take on it.

 

[Bleh]

Look at this shit... Yusuf is colluding with coupta and shilling for foreign suppliers. BC India ke yeh sabse badi problem hai thora sa paisa khaa ke desh bechne ko tayaar hai sare.

On a positive side, he has been hammered by the public which now seems to understand far more about defence procurement.

Also the fact that there is active lobbying going on to ditch Tejas MK2 implies that it is close to development and is going to be a threat to Grippen-E not just in India but around the world. I fecking hope MoD and ADA stick to it.

This guy has a sensible take on it.

A while back I was harping about the exact opposite.. that is, to beef up the AMCA to AHCA or Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft as quickly as possible. They're already reportedly working on a 130kN class engine called "Ganga"!

Other than stealth & thrust vectoring (hopefully), the AMCA does not have a single advantage over MWF... any other new tech can be installed in MWF's mid-life upgrade, even thrust-vectored F414(?) engines.
Its twin engines have more fuel consumption... but they have same max.payload... also it's heavier than MWF... 12 hardpoints against 11 of MWF... MWF may even be more maneuverable...

 

[Akula]

A while back I was harping about the exact opposite.. that is to beef up the AMCA to AHCA or Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft as quickly as possible. They're already reportedly working on a 130kN class whine called "Ganga"!
View attachment 38663
Other than stealth & thrust vectoring (hopefully), the AMCA does not have a single advantage over Mark II... any other new tech can be installed in MWF's mid-life upgrade, even thrust-vectored F414(?) engines.
Its twin engines have more fuel consumption... but they have same max.payload... also it's heavier than MWF... 12 hardpoints against 11 of MWF... MWF may even be more maneuverable...

I am really disappointed by his article. When we are trying to make made in India products, he is saying leave it. For how many years we will buy jets.

 

[Bleh]

I am really disappointed by his article. When we are trying to make made in India products, he is saying leave it. For how many years we will buy jets.

Fuck the article, it's on The Print... We need hundreds of jets & we cannot afford hundreds of 5th generation fighters. END OF STORY!

But I'm talking specs. LCA Tejas evolving to MWF has rendered the AMCA quite a bit redundant, other than R&D achieving technological advancement milestones ofcourse.
With FGFA gone, it too must grow into larger, more payloaded, higher endurance AHCA.. or else Indian Air Force will find itself in another pickle 20 years from now, when Su-30s start retiring.

 

[aditya10r]

A while back I was harping about the exact opposite.. that is to beef up the AMCA to AHCA or Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft as quickly as possible. They're already reportedly working on a 130kN class engine called "Ganga"!

Instead why not work simultaneously on AMCA and AHCA.

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Having 2 airframes will decrease research and development cost and will also keep risks low.

By mid 2040s-50s we will have to totally replace our legacy fleet of Rafale Tejas and su-30mki.

And we won't be getting our hands on any 6th gen Aircraft before that(US China EU and others themselves are 20-25 years away from fruition).

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Rather we should work towards making AHCA+AMCA 5++ GEN aircrafts that can survive and dominate post 2030 airspace.

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[Bleh]

Instead why not work simultaneously on AMCA and AHCA.

_________________________________________
Having 2 airframes will decrease research and development cost and will also keep risks low.

By mid 2040s-50s we will have to totally replace our legacy fleet of Rafale Tejas and su-30mki.

And we won't be getting our hands on any 6th gen Aircraft before that(US China EU and others themselves are 20-25 years away from fruition).

__________________________________________

Rather we should work towards making AHCA+AMCA 5++ GEN aircrafts that can survive and dominate post 2030 airspace.

__________________________________________

Because AMCA & AHCA won't be complementary, more like a step 1 & step 2, just like Tejas Mark1A is a stop gap until Mark2 arrives. When AHCA is available then we won't be needing AmMCA.

MWF will render AMCA redundant right from 2025 only, with almost similar capabilities & specifications.. MWF can be expected to be better at several grounds, I believe both range & maneuverability will be in them.
We cannot afford hundreds of 5th gen fighters & you want deep strikes to be done by a high endurance, high payload fighter. So it's better to have heavy fighters of 5th gen, AHCA... and medium ones will be 4.5th gen, MWF.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Personally F-15 Js and DJs are the best bet as a stop gap fighter. There is no fighter on this planet till date which is better then this fighter in any adversary Air Force. Since MK 2 is estimated at 100 million per airframe, F-15s at very low cost and very well maintained by the J.SD.F, and Boeing coming in with fury with Chinooks and Apaches shouldnt be a problem as procurement. Thats my personal opinion.

 

[aditya10r]

Because AMCA & AHCA won't be complementary, more like a step 1 & step 2, just like Tejas Mark1A is a stop gap until Mark2 arrives. When AHCA is available then we won't be needing AmMCA.

MWF will render AMCA redundant right from 2025 only, with almost similar capabilities & specifications.. MWF can be expected to be better at several grounds, I believe both range & maneuverability will be in them.
We cannot afford hundreds of 5th gen fighters & you want deep strikes to be done by a high endurance, high payload fighter. So it's better to have heavy fighters of 5th gen, AHCA... and medium ones will be 4.5th gen, MWF.

We cannot afford 100s of FGFA today but 20-30 years from today they will be streamlined and won't be as expensive to operate as they are today.
30-40 years from today it would have been a dream for us to operate a 45 squadron air force with only 4/4++ gen AIRCRAFTS.

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[tharun]

Just read the article written by yusuf
It had good points looking at Tejas mk2 will enter service by 2030 or 2040 and service will end near 2070.
Instead cancel Mk2 and go straight ALCA a sub 15.5 meter length 5th gen LCA.

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Indx TechStyle]

But I'm talking specs. LCA Tejas evolving to MWF has rendered the AMCA quite a bit redundant

I think MWF's take off cap (17-18 tonnes) is more in league of F-16, J-10 or Mirage 2000 while AMCA goes close to 30 tonnes, much closer to being a heavy fighter.

 

[Bleh]

Personally F-15 Js and DJs are the best bet as a stop gap fighter. There is no fighter on this planet till date which is better then this fighter in any adversary Air Force. Since MK 2 is estimated at 100 million per airframe, F-15s at very low cost and very well maintained by the J.SD.F, and Boeing coming in with fury with Chinooks and Apaches shouldnt be a problem as procurement. Thats my personal opinion.

Bro, Japanese F-15 year old, used up crap. Also it's a 4th gen heavy fighter, we already have 250+ of those... brand new ones. We won't need more.

We are talking about medium-fighters & whether AMCA development should proceed quickly to AHCA, India's 5th generation heavy-fighter to fill the role of FGFA.

I think MWF's take off cap (17-18 tonnes) is more in league of F-16, J-10 or Mirage 2000 while AMCA goes close to 30 tonnes, much closer to being a heavy fighter.

Instead cancel Mk2 and go straight ALCA a sub 15.5 meter length 5th gen LCA.

We cannot afford 100s of FGFA today but 20-30 years from today they will be streamlined and won't be as expensive to operate as they are today.

I know. A little more push makes even more sense because of that, just more powerful engines & more fuel. Slightly more payload.
A token order of AMCA like Tejas Mark1 & the rest cheaper MWF... The money goes to buying smaller number of 5th gen heavy, high-endurance fighters.

Money is a big factor, we can't afford nor need 5th gen LCAs or trainers.
And no indication of those getting cheaper, as of now!!! This is not mobile phones.. Some tech get cheaper, new even costlier tech keep coming.

 

[bhavesh100]

A while back I was harping about the exact opposite.. that is, to beef up the AMCA to AHCA or Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft as quickly as possible. They're already reportedly working on a 130kN class engine called "Ganga"!
View attachment 38663
Other than stealth & thrust vectoring (hopefully), the AMCA does not have a single advantage over MWF... any other new tech can be installed in MWF's mid-life upgrade, even thrust-vectored F414(?) engines.
Its twin engines have more fuel consumption... but they have same max.payload... also it's heavier than MWF... 12 hardpoints against 11 of MWF... MWF may even be more maneuverable...

All respect to YUSUFBHAI,
HE IS DEAD WRONG, if amca program is delayed and not meet requirements for the Indian Air Force, then what India will do? INDIA IS NWEBIE IN MORDEN military aircraft mfg. Stepwise growth is right way to go. India need to create eco system of industries to support modern aircraft mfg. Itis 25 years of journey from today.

 

[ladder]

What if even after focusing all energies on AMCA, there is slip-up in the development schedule? If ADA is not able to demonstrate all 5th Gen capabilities promised within the required time-frame?

Now, will it not be putting all your eggs in one basket kind of situation? We would have cancelled MWF, MMRCA 2.0. Limited Rafale would have been procured and a few (123) LCA would be in the inventory. What choices IAF would have then?

The same PAKFA?

There is logic in that he has written, but there should be fail-safe also.

The premise of the his logic is that ADA focusing on MWF and MWF RV2, will delay AMCA, which might be correct but it is also correct that AMCA can be delayed without MWF because of technical difficulties.

Would anybody guarantee that IAF would allow (again) some concessions in 5th gen ASQR, to procure a AMCA which is deficient in some respect?

And many of the countries adopting 5th gen planes today are selling their 4th gen fighters to others, so if our economy is conducive and AMCA comes out neat we don't have to fly these 4th gen fighters, we can offload them to others.

And all these generation things are becoming a marketing fad. Just like mobile spectrum generation. The time between generations will decrease. Can we change our total air-frame inventory to match that nomenclature of generation?

 

[ForigenSanghi]

@Bleh

I don't think AMCA should be ditched at all. Two points to this effect.

1) Heavy air superiority fighters are becoming more and more of a liability these days with BVR combat. We should let the Su30 fleet retire in the 2040s and look to replace it by multirole fighters either through AMCA / external 5th gen birds or by joining some 6th gen programme (possibly the European one) post AMCA development.

2) We will need at least 200+ carrier borne twin engine birds by 2040. For that alone we need AMCA to be a success or else we would be spending amount equal to the gdp of a small country procuring F35s.

So in my view, both AMCA and MWF are needed desperately and we can not do without either.

Regarding the Japanese F15s, I think its an ok idea to buy and use them for the next 7-10 years till our programmes mature. Sure we will have an excess of air superiority fighters but when up against the shitty J10s of the chinks and the comedic FC1 of porkis it will do the job.

 

[Bleh]

1) Heavy air superiority fighters are becoming more and more of a liability these days with BVR combat.

Why? How?

Totally forgot about the naval air-arm though... Yeah, they definitely need AMCA-N.
Air force could order 2-4 squadrons too like Tejas Mark1, until AHCA comes. Noone's ditching anything really.

AMCA (from chart)
Empty weight: 12t
Max take-off weight: 25t
Engine: 110kN(×2)
Fuel/Wing-area:??

AHCA (some steroids)
Empty weight: 15t
Max take-off weight: ≥30t
Engine: 130kN(×2)
Fuel/Wing-area:??+

 

[Deathstar]

Why dont we follow the missile development route for fighter a/c ? Like same a/c but with different variants/roles
Like eg AMCA - multi role /heavy bomber / naval/ Light /medium/ heavy. Such iterations.
Idea of Different a/c for different roles and weightage has become obsolete.
We have done it for LCA - A/F and Naval Variant and now medium weight. This is will save time , development costs , keeps production line on etc etc

 

[Filtercoffee]

Bro, Japanese F-15 year old, used up crap. Also it's a 4th gen heavy fighter, we already have 250+ of those... brand new ones. We won't need more.

We are talking about medium-fighters & whether AMCA development should proceed quickly to AHCA, India's 5th generation heavy-fighter to fill the role of FGFA.


I know. A little more push makes even more sense because of that, just more powerful engines & more fuel. Slightly more payload.
A token order of AMCA like Tejas Mark1 & the rest cheaper MWF... The money goes to buying smaller number of 5th gen heavy, high-endurance fighters.

Money is a big factor, we can't afford nor need 5th gen LCAs or trainers.
And no indication of those getting cheaper, as of now!!! This is not mobile phones.. Some tech get cheaper, new even costlier tech keep coming.

F-15Js are going to be sold and are good for two decades, knowing Boeing, they will upgrade them here, in house. Also if you notice, the F-15 is very similar to the AMCA design, which will boost confidence in pilots transitioning to AMCA once in production post 2030. Now these eagles are a very big deterrent for the P.AF. operating F-16s and JF-17s as they are completely made into air defence from their original air superiority fighters for the J.A.SD.F. Specifically for intrusion from its neighbors. Now the neighbors fly Sukhois and its dereavatives which are said to be better in air combat as per exercises held in Agra a while ago against regular F-15Cs of the USAF. Now it maybe that Js are better at air defence due to J.A.SD.F requirements and therefore ideal for the IAF stop gap fighter requirements. Again, dont worry about them being old, I am sure Boeing will, if bought, upgrade them to requested standards of the IAF. It is Better then buying few examples as we get 100 fighters tailor made for air defence. And they will be cheaper then brand new any other lesser certified; compared to the F-15 aircraft for the requirements. Also you mentioned having 4th gen (heavier) fighters, 250 + inparticular, I know having more of a different type will be better for the IAF morale and squadron strength. So we might end up with Flankers, Rafales, Mirages, Fulcrums, Eagles and the LCA Tejas derivatives for at least the next two decades or more. Now I know this line up is quite impressive and will then help focus the inhouse projects, without stress; for better highly perfected results. Lessons learnt since 2000 AD due to stress and the IAF receiving 2nd rate, hazardous and down right depressing stop gap solutions have me insisting on a complete buy of the japanese F-15s to be sold without delay ASAP.

 

[Defcon 1]

ALCA is a fantasy. Not a practical solution. The basic requirement of stealth is that a huge amount of equipment should be carried internally instead of on pylons. Plus the aircraft should have passive sensors to avoid using its radar, which should also be carried internally. Just the above two points mean that a light fighter will never be able to carry its useful combat load along with added weight of sensors and equipment. Hence light stealth fighters simply cannot exist with present technology.