ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Filtercoffee]

FYI-https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/japan-plans-sell-100-its-homebrew-f-15j-eagles-pay-more-stealth-jets-52167

 

[IndianHawk]

F-15Js are going to be sold and are good for two decades, knowing Boeing, they will upgrade them here, in house. Also if you notice, the F-15 is very similar to the AMCA design, which will boost confidence in pilots transitioning to AMCA once in production post 2030. Now these eagles are a very big deterrent for the P.AF. operating F-16s and JF-17s as they are completely made into air defence from their original air superiority fighters for the J.A.SD.F. Specifically for intrusion from its neighbors. Now the neighbors fly Sukhois and its dereavatives which are said to be better in air combat as per exercises held in Agra a while ago against regular F-15Cs of the USAF. Now it maybe that Js are better at air defence due to J.A.SD.F requirements and therefore ideal for the IAF stop gap fighter requirements. Again, dont worry about them being old, I am sure Boeing will, if bought, upgrade them to requested standards of the IAF. It is Better then buying few examples as we get 100 fighters tailor made for air defence. And they will be cheaper then brand new any other lesser certified; compared to the F-15 aircraft for the requirements. Also you mentioned having 4th gen (heavier) fighters, 250 + inparticular, I know having more of a different type will be better for the IAF morale and squadron strength. So we might end up with Flankers, Rafales, Mirages, Fulcrums, Eagles and the LCA Tejas derivatives for at least the next two decades or more. Now I know this line up is quite impressive and will then help focus the inhouse projects, without stress; for better highly perfected results. Lessons learnt since 2000 AD due to stress and the IAF receiving 2nd rate, hazardous and down right depressing stop gap solutions have me insisting on a complete buy of the japanese F-15s to be sold without delay ASAP.

Why would be buy f15 when we are building su30mki in-house already?

IAF has enough heavy fighters for now. It wants Medium weight fighter.

Regarding stealth. Future stealth fighters will be heavier . Look at all 6th gen prototypes they are huge. Once we have AMCA we can move on to developing AHCA as 6th gen get which will be bigger than amca and will replace su30mki from 2045.

I think timelines are pretty clear now.
Mwf ready by 2027. Amca ready by 2030-32. (First flight by 2025-26)

So we can start working on 6th gen concepts from 2027 ( when mwf development work is complete and development resources are free).

From 2027 to 2045 in 15-18 years we can catch up to 6th gen technologies with AHCA.

 

[Imaxxx]

Why would be buy f15 when we are building su30mki in-house already?

To add, the risk of US imposing conditions of end use monitoring. It was only last month when the US put close end use monitoring on PAF F-16s, labeling it as "logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations", while spinning the covering of the cost of $125MM as aid.

It's hard to discount that risk to zero.

#pkmkb #destroypakistan

 

[Filtercoffee]

Why would be buy f15 when we are building su30mki in-house already?

IAF has enough heavy fighters for now. It wants Medium weight fighter.

Regarding stealth. Future stealth fighters will be heavier . Look at all 6th gen prototypes they are huge. Once we have AMCA we can move on to developing AHCA as 6th gen get which will be bigger than amca and will replace su30mki from 2045.

I think timelines are pretty clear now.
Mwf ready by 2027. Amca ready by 2030-32. (First flight by 2025-26)

So we can start working on 6th gen concepts from 2027 ( when mwf development work is complete and development resources are free).

From 2027 to 2045 in 15-18 years we can catch up to 6th gen technologies with AHCA.

The SU-30MKI line might close to make way for the LCA MK1A production. Regarding the orders for SU-30 MKIs which might come through for HAL to build more is highly unlikely, I read in an article. We need more then 110 aircraft as 'squadron strength' is very low on morale and aircraft. To have a cheaper more potent heavier world class fighter isnt a bad choice. As there is a huge gap between AMCA and the 6th gen prototypes; we will have a fighter as good as we need to atleast fill up 20 + years of service for the AMCA development and certification without stress of any attack or an 'if required' offensive campaign. We now have the best fighter if bought, to train on. Due to its flight characteristics and parameters which are higher then the SU-30MKI whose characteristics are some times classified to the public. The 5th and 6th gen fighters have to fly faster then the F-15 or can puss-out like F-35 with its ECMs and questionable stealth.

FYI -

https://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2001-12/stealth-threat/

So F-15s are needed for training and evaluating pilots for trasitioning to stealth fighter pilots, in this case AMCA pilots due to similar design and similar flight characteristics, except thrust vectoring; which I wish some day could be installed on the Eagles. Now intially American GE F-414 engines, which will be installed on the AMCA initially and or indefinitely will have LCAs and the AMCA share a common platform for ease of maintenance and will give another platform, if purchased in this case the F-15, which is from the same country; an edge due our transitioning trail of American defence products. Oh, and please dont fool your self believing the current K-9 or the K-10 to be ready and that either of them will be installed on the AMCA as they are not keen on a lower thrust engine. There is a chance if we do buy the F-15J there could be a chance of producing and installing the engines for the F-15 on the AMCA, which are higher at 111.2 KN in after burner. The public are desperately hoping to see the K-10 to atleast reach 98 KN and then reach 110 KN for the AMCA to supercruise, forget the fact that we have a gravely expensive consultant for reaching that number. I am sure they will reach that number or have already, but WE NEED FIGHTERS, and the best are readily available to complement the Indian Flankers for the next two to three decades. So its a win for our AMCA program and fulfilment of the current IAF fighter requirement. Your timeline is bang on and if done properly wont need a fleet according to your statement which also says the 5th and 6th gen fighters being heavy. The F-15 is heavy. To fill the gap knowing current political scenarios which seem to have us defensively covered without the need for additions to the IAF disbanded squadrons; I know its a very important strategic buy the F-15, to counter PAF and its F-16s and JF-17s which wont even dare think of ever entering Indian air space due to the Eagles flying air patrol along the border. If bought. Forget about the sanctions which might be put on to us if we buy the Js as we already have Apaches, Chinooks, C-130s and C-17s as examples. We attacked Pakistan with Mirages after the American products purchase. It could be coincidence or our deep and unkown to the public tie with US defence forces.

 

[Longewala]

I am just glad to see how far we have progressed compared to 40 years back we were petrified at seeing napaks getting 40 f-16s on baksheesh

Today that that same US is trying to sell us massively upgraded f-16s, paf getiing their's shot down...
And we are actually scoffing at the thought of F-15s!
These were the boss of the air battlefield when PAF was getting f-16s in 1981, and today we have so many jets that are a class above those same suoer-fighters that we might not even accept them for free.

 

[IndianHawk]

ALCA is a fantasy. Not a practical solution. The basic requirement of stealth is that a huge amount of equipment should be carried internally instead of on pylons. Plus the aircraft should have passive sensors to avoid using its radar, which should also be carried internally. Just the above two points mean that a light fighter will never be able to carry its useful combat load along with added weight of sensors and equipment. Hence light stealth fighters simply cannot exist with present technology.

True .

The SU-30MKI line might close to make way for the LCA MK1A production. Regarding the orders for SU-30 MKIs which might come through for HAL to build more is highly unlikely, I read in an article. We need more then 110 aircraft as 'squadron strength' is very low on morale and aircraft. To have a cheaper more potent heavier world class fighter isnt a bad choice. As there is a huge gap between AMCA and the 6th gen prototypes; we will have a fighter as good as we need to atleast fill up 20 + years of service for the AMCA development and certification without stress of any attack or an 'if required' offensive campaign. We now have the best fighter if bought, to train on. Due to its flight characteristics and parameters which are higher then the SU-30MKI whose characteristics are some times classified to the public. The 5th and 6th gen fighters have to fly faster then the F-15 or can puss-out like F-35 with its ECMs and questionable stealth.

FYI -

https://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2001-12/stealth-threat/

So F-15s are needed for training and evaluating pilots for trasitioning to stealth fighter pilots, in this case AMCA pilots due to similar design and similar flight characteristics, except thrust vectoring; which I wish some day could be installed on the Eagles. Now intially American GE F-414 engines, which will be installed on the AMCA initially and or indefinitely will have LCAs and the AMCA share a common platform for ease of maintenance and will give another platform, if purchased in this case the F-15, which is from the same country; an edge due our transitioning trail of American defence products. Oh, and please dont fool your self believing the current K-9 or the K-10 to be ready and that either of them will be installed on the AMCA as they are not keen on a lower thrust engine. There is a chance if we do buy the F-15J there could be a chance of producing and installing the engines for the F-15 on the AMCA, which are higher at 111.2 KN in after burner. The public are desperately hoping to see the K-10 to atleast reach 98 KN and then reach 110 KN for the AMCA to supercruise, forget the fact that we have a gravely expensive consultant for reaching that number. I am sure they will reach that number or have already, but WE NEED FIGHTERS, and the best are readily available to complement the Indian Flankers for the next two to three decades. So its a win for our AMCA program and fulfilment of the current IAF fighter requirement. Your timeline is bang on and if done properly wont need a fleet according to your statement which also says the 5th and 6th gen fighters being heavy. The F-15 is heavy. To fill the gap knowing current political scenarios which seem to have us defensively covered without the need for additions to the IAF disbanded squadrons; I know its a very important strategic buy the F-15, to counter PAF and its F-16s and JF-17s which wont even dare think of ever entering Indian air space due to the Eagles flying air patrol along the border. If bought. Forget about the sanctions which might be put on to us if we buy the Js as we already have Apaches, Chinooks, C-130s and C-17s as examples. We attacked Pakistan with Mirages after the American products purchase. It could be coincidence or our deep and unkown to the public tie with US defence forces.

You are not making sense. If we want more heavy fighters we will order more su30MKI .lca lines are different. Su30mki needs a dedicated line just for upgrade of 270 fighters so it's line will remain it's line.

We don't need to train against f15 either as neither chinese nor porkiyo have it. And we already train again both f16 and f15 with USA itself also with Singapore.

 

[Steven Rogers]

A while back I was harping about the exact opposite.. that is, to beef up the AMCA to AHCA or Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft as quickly as possible. They're already reportedly working on a 130kN class engine called "Ganga"!
View attachment 38663
Other than stealth & thrust vectoring (hopefully), the AMCA does not have a single advantage over MWF... any other new tech can be installed in MWF's mid-life upgrade, even thrust-vectored F414(?) engines.
Its twin engines have more fuel consumption... but they have same max.payload... also it's heavier than MWF... 12 hardpoints against 11 of MWF... MWF may even be more maneuverable...

I would take the dimensions more realistic from the rfi issued last year feb by ada on NGTD. AMCA has the advantage of supersonic flight without the afterburner,ie supercruise which means more endurance for a given mission,it will also have a 3ton internal payload capacity and remember,it has bigger dimensions than the f35...AMCA definitely has several advantage,such as stealth,radar,360 degree awareness,better transmission of data,faster data transmission due to optical fibre usage instead of copper wires,more enhanced artificial intelligence and better awareness of the combat...

 

[IndianHawk]

I am just glad to see how far we have progressed compared to 40 years back we were petrified at seeing napaks getting 40 f-16s on baksheesh

Today that that same US is trying to sell us massively upgraded f-16s, paf getiing their's shot down...
And we are actually scoffing at the thought of F-15s!
These were the boss of the air battlefield when PAF was getting f-16s in 1981, and today we have so many jets that are a class above those same suoer-fighters that we might not even accept them for free.

It's all economy. On PPP we are now more than half of US GDP. In 15-20 years we will be larger than USA. Americans can read the writing on the wall .

 

[ezsasa]

I am just glad to see how far we have progressed compared to 40 years back we were petrified at seeing napaks getting 40 f-16s on baksheesh

Today that that same US is trying to sell us massively upgraded f-16s, paf getiing their's shot down...
And we are actually scoffing at the thought of F-15s!
These were the boss of the air battlefield when PAF was getting f-16s in 1981, and today we have so many jets that are a class above those same suoer-fighters that we might not even accept them for free.

why go 40 years, just go back to discussions here at DFI in 2014. there was so much ambiguity, so much uncertainty ,so many doubts, so many doomsday scenarios. and today's upbeat mood of DFI is exact opposite of mood in 2014.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Why? How?

Totally forgot about the naval air-arm though... Yeah, they definitely need AMCA-N.
Air force could order 2-4 squadrons too like Tejas Mark1, until AHCA comes. Noone's ditching anything really.

AMCA (from chart)
Empty weight: 12t
Max take-off weight: 25t
Engine: 110kN(×2)
Fuel/Wing-area:??

AHCA (some steroids)
Empty weight: 15t
Max take-off weight: ≥30t
Engine: 130kN(×2)
Fuel/Wing-area:??+

AMCA has empty weight greater than the 4th gen MCA as per the brochure,but that doesnt mean it would have such from the first proto.....AMCA itself lies bw traditional mca and hca,and given the 110kN thrust the aircraft can very well do the missions required by our AF which currently HCA like su30mki doing. And last i know AVM R.Namibiar in a seminar said that AMCA will replace early sukhois which entered service in early 2000nds....

 

[IndianHawk]

I would take the dimensions more realistic from the rfi issued last year feb by ada on NGTD. AMCA has the advantage of supersonic flight without the afterburner,ie supercruise which means more endurance for a given mission,it will also have a 3ton internal payload capacity and remember,it has bigger dimensions than the f35...AMCA definitely has several advantage,such as stealth,radar,360 degree awareness,better transmission of data,faster data transmission due to optical fibre usage instead of copper wires,more enhanced artificial intelligence and better awareness of the combat...

I think AHCA will be our 6th gen bird. Which will match dimensions of tempest / Franco German NGF/ American 6t gen birds. This AHCA can start concurrent development once mwf moves from lab to production freeing resources.

6th gen goals of more range more internal weaponry and more electronics / energy weapons require them to be bigger than 5th gen. A su30 size bird fits the bill for it.

 

[IndianHawk]

why go 40 years, just go back to discussions here at DFI in 2014. there was so much ambiguity, so much uncertainty ,so many doubts, so many doomsday scenarios. and today's upbeat mood of DFI is exact opposite of mood in 2014.

Same all over the internet . Indians have grown new balls and confidence with Modi govt.

Goes to show what leadership can provide to a nation and its people.

 

[IndianHawk]

AMCA has empty weight greater than the 4th gen MCA as per the brochure,but that doesnt mean it would have such from the first proto.....AMCA itself lies bw traditional mca and hca,and given the 110kN thrust the aircraft can very well do the missions required by our AF which currently HCA like su30mki doing. And last i know AVM R.Namibiar in a seminar said that AMCA will replace early sukhois which entered service in early 2000nds....

True by the time amca matures in 2030s weaponry miniaturisation will make amca far more capable than what su30 is today. Bramhos NG will be here with less weight , sfdr will be here with huge range. Subsonic standoff weaponry and far longer range pgm/lgb with lesser weight will be in service by then.

So mission to mission amca will be more capable than su30 of today.

 

[Filtercoffee]

True .


You are not making sense. If we want more heavy fighters we will order more su30MKI .lca lines are different. Su30mki needs a dedicated line just for upgrade of 270 fighters so it's line will remain it's line.

We don't need to train against f15 either as neither chinese nor porkiyo have it. And we already train again both f16 and f15 with USA itself also with Singapore.

Su-30MKI is upgraded at Ozar Nashik and not on the production line at HAL. F-15s are considered the best air superiority fighters flying till date other then the Raptors. Imagine having 110 F-15s with 270 SU-30MKIs; what a potent air force we will have then. Thats why I was hoping for a purchase as our Defence minister inspected the F-15Js and then there was an article about a purchase of the type. The point I was making was that none of your mentioned air forces have the fighter in its fleet. Therefore knowing Japan's need for protection and their choice for a fighter, in this case the F-15J, we will confirm our selves to have an air superiority, air dominance and an air defence fighter which wont let us worry about attacks and intrusions owing to Japan's air space defended by the platform. To have a ready made fighter is far better then producing another, which takes effort and we do not need to put that kind of effort as we have a ready fleet which is to be upgraded, maintained and serviced by Boeing. If bought. Practice and practicing in are two different paths which we then will have as choice to make as our own planned tactical doctrine will be perfected and diverse with the addition of the Eagles, which only a couple of air forces have.

 

[Steven Rogers]

True by the time amca matures in 2030s weaponry miniaturisation will make amca far more capable than what su30 is today. Bramhos NG will be here with less weight , sfdr will be here with huge range. Subsonic standoff weaponry and far longer range pgm/lgb with lesser weight will be in service by then.

So mission to mission amca will be more capable than su30 of today.

AMCA will be the brain in any combat scenerio behind all our aircrafts due to its superb advancement in technologies, for mwf the line is already drawn and more or less we know what will it be offer while for AMCA for a single requirement various research are moving ahead for ex. we already have mastered the x band trm of the type we have,DRDO now doing research on various other aesa module technology such as this.
https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/11/is-lrde-developing-uwb-radar-for-amca.html?m=1

 

[IndianHawk]

Su-30MKI is upgraded at Ozar Nashik and not on the production line at HAL. F-15s are considered the best air superiority fighters flying till date other then the Raptors. Imagine having 110 F-15s with 270 SU-30MKIs what a potent air force we will have then. Thats why I was hoping for a purchase as our Defence minister inspected the F-15Js and then there was an article about a purchase of the type. The point I was making was that none of your mentioned air forces have the fighter in its fleet. Therefore knowing Japan's need for protection and their choice for a fighter, in this case the F-15J, we will confirm our selves to have an air superiority, air dominance and air defence fighter which wont let us worry about attacks and intrusions owing to Japan's air space defended by the platform. To have a ready made atform is far better then producing another, which takes effort and we do not need to put that kind as we have a ready fleet which is to be upgraded, maintained and serviced by Boeing. If bought. Practice and practicing in are two different paths which we then will have as choice to make as our own planned tactical doctrine will be perfected and diverse, which only a couple of air forces have.

You just don't buy fighter jet. You decide on war doctrine first. Then decide how many heavy fighter you need and then allocate resources for them.

Heavy fighter like su30 / f15 bleed opex. They demand more poilets more maintenance and are more expensive to fly.

So iaf can't afford more heavy fighters. Also adding another jet to the zoo is madness. We need to standardise the fleet on two three types.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Su-30MKI is upgraded at Ozar Nashik and not on the production line at HAL. F-15s are considered the best air superiority fighters flying till date other then the Raptors. Imagine having 110 F-15s with 270 SU-30MKIs; what a potent air force we will have then. Thats why I was hoping for a purchase as our Defence minister inspected the F-15Js and then there was an article about a purchase of the type. The point I was making was that none of your mentioned air forces have the fighter in its fleet. Therefore knowing Japan's need for protection and their choice for a fighter, in this case the F-15J, we will confirm our selves to have an air superiority, air dominance and air defence fighter which wont let us worry about attacks and intrusions owing to Japan's air space defended by the platform. To have a ready made fighter is far better then producing another, which takes effort and we do not need to put that kind as we have a ready fleet which is to be upgraded, maintained and serviced by Boeing. If bought. Practice and practicing in are two different paths which we then will have as choice to make as our own planned tactical doctrine will be perfected and diverse, which only a couple of air forces have.

110 F15s would bring more burden on budget allocated for flight and fight....IAF needs MCA to cater that,like su30 f15 per hr flight cost wont be anywhere less than 30000 dollars compared to 16k on rafale 10k on f16 or 8k on gripen.....SU30 are already more than enough in the HCA category which IAF itself wants to reduced dependency by buying the MMRCAs...

 

[IndianHawk]

AMCA will be the brain in any combat scenerio behind all our aircrafts due to its superb advancement in technologies, for mwf the line is already drawn and more or less we know what will it be offer while for AMCA for a single requirement various research are moving ahead for ex. we already have mastered the x band trm of the type we have,DRDO now doing research on various other aesa module technology such as this.
https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/11/is-lrde-developing-uwb-radar-for-amca.html?m=1

Thanks for link . Interesting stuff. So GAN based aesa will go forward in a big way .

I think timeline says it all. They are taking their time to make it truly advanced with distributed aperture abd gan based aesa + eccm.

We'll be watching this baby grow for next decade.

 

[Filtercoffee]

110 F15s would bring more burden on budget allocated for flight and fight....IAF needs MCA to cater that,like su30 f15 per hr flight cost wont be anywhere less than 30000 dollars compared to 16k on rafale 10k on f16 or 8k on gripen.....SU30 are already more than enough in the HCA category which IAF itself wants to reduced dependency by buying the MMRCAs...

the Eagles will be sold at a very reasonable price as I read. Also they hold more fuel and have a higher ferry range compared to the fighters mentioned. Why have all of them fly at once when there would be only a hand full needed to fly for air patrols with the rest of them on standby. Think about the money we will save with the F-15s and their very powerful radars and their long range weapons instead of hoards of the rest of the mentioned fighters by you needed for air patrol. Also could you show where you got your price number per aircraft to operate per sortie from?

 

[Steven Rogers]

the Eagles will be sold at a very reasonable price as I read. Also they hold more fuel and have a higher ferry range compared to the fighters mentioned. Why have all of them fly at once when there would be only a hand full needed to fly for air patrols with the rest of them on standby. Think about the money we will save with the F-15s and their very powerful radars and their long range weapons instead of hoards of the rest of the mentioned fighters by you needed for air patrol. Also could you show where you got your price number per aircraft to operate per sortie from?

That is sold on what is called the brochure,in ISA much touted aircraft have underperformed....The eagles will be financially much heavier to maintain,and it will also require to establish new chain of spares within the country else forget about the so called reasonable price,the iaf suffered from that with the sukhois,powerful radar? i dont have knowldege about the japs f15 radar but if it is an aesa then it would require the US permission to sell or to replace the same with older msa...Su30mkis already have a very powerfull yet outdated radar which losses its relevance against even a small aesa....those numbers are avialable on various forums probably f16.net when i checked them the last time.....