ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

I feel like pi$$ed off. GoI proved they are in bed with the Boeing. Recent increased orders for the p-8i then this really bad for indian industry. GoI has gone really dumb, US Congress denied permission to the LM as well as for the Boeing to work with the naval tejas. Now we wont make any progress in the indigenous industry for defence and unkil is throwing all the biscuits he have. We have left a golden opportunity offered by the Europeans. I have smelled something when NATO commander opened his mouth, but i believed in the india is independent in decision making. I think soon we will be another client state like Japs, RoK to the unkil. Good luck

There is a talk like we should not put all out eggs into one basket since Army bought ANTPQ WLRs. But now it looks like it actually was "India should not put all eggs in old basket but instead buy new cage".

 

[StealthSniper]

I really really hope that even if GE wins the engine bid (which I hope doesn't restrict usage of LCA) it won't win the MMRCA. I just don't like the feeling of having 126-200 American aircraft in our inventory and the complications it can bring such as when we can use it or all the agreements we have to sign. Having American aircraft in our inventory for the next couple decades scares me and who knows if politics change in the future and if we will be sanctioned or not.

 

[StealthSniper]

Also buying American means we can forget about indigenisation, because American companies will try to stop India from making it's own weapons and making India buy American to support their economy, not ours.

 

[Sri]

Let's clarify some of the rumors here. Here's the report:

GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014 | India Defence

I would want to highlight Dr. Prahlada's statement:

"Price negotiations and contract finalization will be worked in the next two months...GE Aviation will deliver 20 GE-414 engines from 2014 and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to our defence establishments...The GE-414 engines will be developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore in collaboration with other DRDO agencies such as Aeronautical Development Agency and HAL...We have decided to go for a new engine for the LCA Mk-2 after the Indian Air Force (IAF) sought a better engine with higher rate of performance in terms of speed, thrust and vector than GE-404 engines being used in LCA Mark-1"

 

[san]

GE CEO Jeff Immerlt is in india on 28 -29 th and also visited Bangalore. So something may have happend at last minute.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

with Uncle sam now dangling the UN security council seat carrot and likely to get active re Kashmir issue its going to be US of A all the way. Manmohan ji the nuclear deal is enough for the momen; let us not get too ambitious and fall for every carrot.

Nevertheless with GE winning the IAF has got an engine which will deliver 98 KN -100 Kn thrust which is exactly it wanted. But I really hope Europe gets a share of the pie atleast in MRCA.

 

[EagleOne]

In a last-minute twist, General Electric of the US has bagged the hotly contested $800-million tender to supply 99 engines for India's Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA). After both engines in the contest — GE's F-414 and Eurojet's EJ-200 — were found technically suitable, the F-414 has been declared the cheaper option.

The choice of the GE-414 engine boosts the chances of America's F/A-18 fighter and the Swedish Gripen NG in the $11-billion tender for an Indian Air Force medium fighter. Conversely, it is a blow to the Eurofighter, which is powered by twin EJ-200 engines.


In the initial commercial bids, opened in mid-September, Eurojet ($666 million) had bid lower than GE ($822 million). But, after two weeks of intensive evaluation by a defence ministry price negotiating committee, GE has been ruled the cheaper option.
"After evaluation and acceptance of the technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. Further price negotiations and contract finalisation will follow," the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) announced today.

DRDO insiders say the price negotiating committee held several meetings for clarifications with Eurojet and GE representatives since the commercial bids were opened. After factoring in these clarifications, the GE engine was found to be cheaper.

The decision to buy the GE engine had been taken last week, but was only announced today in Bangalore in the presence of representatives from both companies.

Eurojet executives complain that a revised bid, submitted by them last night, was not taken into account.

Top DRDO officials emphatically reject any suggestion that US pressure had resulted in turning around the decision in favour of GE. "We had to factor in several expenses that the companies had not included in their bids. This is not surprising, since this was an extremely complex bidding process. But, after we evaluated and added in all expenses, GE was the cheaper vendor," said a senior DRDO official.

Company and DRDO sources say the additional expenses added on to the Eurojet bid included the cost of extra transfer of technology that the company had offered and the price of tooling to build the engine in India.

Although narrowly pipped at the post, Eurojet has not given up hope. Said Eurojet Business Development Executive Paul Herrmann: "We remain optimistic about this tender. Over the next year, I believe the Indian defence ministry will encounter problems in obtaining US sanctions for transfer of technology relating to the GE engine. And, if GE fails to meet these Indian requirements, the contract will come to us."
In a statement, the company said: "We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection."
Defence ministry indicate that negotiations with GE will continue at least until mid-2011. Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India

American engine to power LCA

 

[gogbot]

Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India

Oh no

Herrmann: "We remain optimistic about this tender. Over the next year, I believe the Indian defence ministry will encounter problems in obtaining US sanctions for transfer of technology relating to the GE engine. And, if GE fails to meet these Indian requirements, the contract will come to us."

And i am sure they will charge more and we have to pay more.

 

[Sri]

GE Aviation Reaffirms Commitment to F414 Engines; Rejects Eurojet Claims as Pointless | India Defence

^^ This gets even more interesting..

 

[neo29]

India picks US engines over European for Tejas

The Americans have upstaged the Europeans yet again in the tussle for the lucrative Indian defence market. The heart of Indian Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), finally on its way to becoming operational after 27 long years, will be American rather than European.

The defence ministry on Thursday announced General Electric's F-414 engines have been selected over its rival Eurojet Turbo GmbH's EJ-200 engines, after a bitter race over last two years, to power the Tejas Mark-II version.

While initial contract will be for 99 engines for over $650 million, the option for 49 more engines could be exercised later. Eight engines will be bought off-the-shelf, while other 91 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology.

The indigenous LCA programme, under which IAF "hopes" to have first Tejas Mark-I squadron somewhat operational by May 2011, has no overt connection with the ongoing final selection process for the gigantic $10.4-billion project to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for IAF.

But tongues have begun to wag that selection of GE engines for LCA brightens prospects of American F/A-18 'Super Hornet', as also Swedish Gripen, over Eurofighter in MMRCA race. It would make much better economic and logistical sense to have similar engines powering both LCA and MMRCA.

GE chairperson and CEO Jeffrey R Immelt met PM Manmohan Singh just a few days ago. The American multi-national conglomerate is also into making nuclear power generation equipment, which it hopes to sell to India.

India picks US engines over European for Tejas

 

[Sridhar]

GE Beats Eurojet To Power Indian LCA

Sep 30, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.BENGALURU, India

GE Aviation's GE F414 has edged out Eurojet's EJ200 to power the Mk-II version of India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
The deal is estimated to be worth close to $800 million, after taking into account spares and other critical parts of the engine. Sources confirm to AVIATION WEEK that close to 100 Tejas aircraft will be powered by the GE F414 engine.
The price negotiating committee (PNC) had representatives from the Indian ministry of defense, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the Defense Research Development Organization (DRDO), LCA builder Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian navy.
"After evaluation and acceptance of the technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder," DRDO said Sept. 30. "Further price negotiations and contract finalization will follow."
The PNC, headed by DRDO's chief controller for Aerospace Systems, Dr. Prahlada, kept a tight lid on the evaluation process, even though the Indian media put its money on the EJ200. "The current order is for 100 engines and you can't rule out the possibility of a repeat order for another 100 in the future," a source says. "Now we will intensify our negotiations with the L-1 [GE Aviation] and iron out all remaining issues. This could take 2-3 months, after which a formal deal will be signed. Tejas Mk-II with GE-F414 will fly in the next three years."
The current lot of Tejas aircraft are flying with the GE 404 engine, and the initial eight limited series production (LSP) versions and the 20 series production will fly with the same engine. The IAF is likely to place an order for 20 more Tejas, and the new engine would be introduced with that batch.
With the delay of India's homegrown Kaveri engine, the IAF-ADA-HAL team decided to push for an alternative engine. Test pilots also felt that the GE 404 lacked the needed thrust, so the hunt for another power plant began a couple of years ago.
ADA and HAL will have to make some slight modifications to the Tejas airframe to make the new engine fit. "It meets all the performance requirements of Tejas, like the rate of turn and thrust in all modes," a source says. "The first lot of the engines will come by 2014-15 and the rest would be manufactured in India under transfer of technology [agreements]. The first lot of engines would undergo some simple tests and minute modifications before they are fitted to Tejas Mk-II ... The GE F414 would also power the LCA naval variant."

GE Beats Eurojet To Power Indian LCA | AVIATION WEEK

 

[neo29]

Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine

Eurojet Gmbh has accepted defeat in the Tejas Mk-II engine competition. Just received this statement from the company:

"We respect the decision taken by the Price Negotiating Committee. However, we regret that the Committee has decided against the most capable & latest generation engine on offer for the LCA-Tejas. Together with our consortium partner companies and their respective governments we will carefully study the decision and its implications. We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection. This decision does not affect our strong commitment to India. We will continue to explore true and trusted partnerships here which will support the development of a strong Indian aerospace and defence industry."

The GE F414 turbofan is understood to have been found more price competitive when several other costs were added to the fixed commercial proposals put forward by GE and Eurojet. The other costs included custom modification of the engine, ground and flight-testing and certification of the modified engine and, crucially, technology transfer elements such as jigs, assemblies etc. The deal, worth approximately $800-million, is for 99 engines, with options for 100 more. GE hasn't reacted to the news just yet, but are likely to make a statement shortly. No official word from Boeing or Gripen, though folks at the Indian offices of both firms are appropriately delighted.

Source : Livefist

 

[Rage]

I don't like this.

The GE F414 falls short on thrust at 90-98 kn, is heavier than, and therefore has a lower thrust-weight ratio than the Eurojet, and even though it has a higher pressure-ratio, that only means excess stress and heat on the engine. I also don't know if the F414 has anything like the low-density single crystal 'bliscs' that come coupled with ATCC (Active-Tip Clearence Control) to allow negotiation between the blade tip and turbine case.

This seems to be a political decision and I don't like it.

 

[pmaitra]

I don't like this.

The GE F414 falls short on thrust at 90-98 kn, is heavier than, and therefore has a lower thrust-weight ratio than the Eurojet, and even though it has a higher pressure-ratio, that only means excess stress and heat on the engine. I also don't know if the F414 has anything like the low-density single crystal 'bliscs' that come coupled with ATCC (Active-Tip Clearence Control) to allow negotiation between the blade tip and turbine case.

This seems to be a political decision and I don't like it.

I agree with the above quoted reasoning.

There are several disadvantages with the GE F414 engine:

• It has inferior thrust.
• It is heavier.
• It is American and the US has this uncanny habit of denying spares and parts at the drop of the hat.

 

[sayareakd]

guys what do you expect no one is going to sell us top of the line latest tech, those things we have to develop ourselves, if you want state of the art stuff.

 

[pmaitra]

guys what do you expect no one is going to sell us top of the line latest tech, those things we have to develop ourselves, if you want state of the art stuff.

Well, we have to strike a balance somewhere.

We need to develop indigenous capabilities, the Kaveri Engine in this case. At the same time, if it takes too long to develop the Kaveri Engine, then the otherwise fine product which the LCA is, and the efforts that have gone into it will be wasted. Hence, so that we can do justice to those indigenously developed components on the LCA which are state-of-the-art, we have to go for an imported engine. LCA is relevant today (4.5 generation), even with an imported engine. It will not be 20 years hence, with a indigenous engine.

I was wondering, why not ask Klimov to setup a Jet Engine Research and Development facility in India? Or maybe the GoI and Klimov can setup a Joint-Venture company with little or no link with Gas Turbine Research Establishment whatsoever. Let these two different entities compete against each other.

 

[Rahul Singh]

"We remain optimistic about this tender. Over the next year, I believe the Indian defence ministry will encounter problems in obtaining US sanctions for transfer of technology relating to the GE engine. And, if GE fails to meet these Indian requirements, the contract will come to us."

Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India."

Done, Not Done, Half Done, what? And Eurojet optimism says world of truth. Shivalik incident is still not very old and nor is consultancy issue for N-LCA.

No hope to see work beginning on MK-2 until JV-KAVERI is ready for production.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

because they offer better quality,better Tot,and don't use threats of sanctions at the drop of a hat

 

[nitesh]

^^

Rahul

GE Aviation Reaffirms Commitment to F414 Engines; Rejects Eurojet Claims as Pointless | India Defence

GE Aviation refused to comment on the deal itself and termed the situation "premature" as the specifics of this deal are still to be worked out. "GE Aviation is very hopeful that the decision will be to power the HAL Tejas with the F414." GE Aviation told India Defence (india-defence.com).

I don't think the deal is finalized YET

 

[nrj]

DoD, DoS yet to sign GE offer. Deal yet to see finalization. I believe post-20 engine orders can be EDE variant. Although its not clear if Development work to be done in-house with US co-operation. GE's speed of delivery can not be doubted. Optimistically, late 2017 can see MK-2 flying alright.