ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Yusuf]

Nitesh, EJ will then dictate terms. Their quote will have a validity on the terms.

 

[nitesh]

yusuf bhai, it seems you already know the future then

 

[thakur_ritesh]

I think the point being made by yusuf is spot on. You do business on the basis of weaknesses and strengths of others and when you get the opportunity to negotiate from the point of strength you try to extract the max to the extent it might seem like a loot.

If we want ToT then more likely than not we have made a terrible choice but if cost was the only factor along with politics then we have made a perfect choice, we need to take a pick as to what is more important.

Let us say india goes for some other aircraft for mmrca other than EFT, then why would the Europeans be obliged to fulfill our needs on our terms? They can come up with n number of reasons of not fulfilling what they had quoted earlier. They would by then have been convinced that no matter what, the Indians will have to come back to us because they have no other supplier in the market.

As I said before, which is, if this is a political decision and we have negotiated well then its all fine and in that case even if we don't end up getting significant ToT, we will still stick with this engine. Quite possible india might have been assured from the top most people in the US that a certain amount of ToT will be handed out and nothing beyond and if so then it seems we are okay with the whole thing.

 

[nitesh]

Ritesh and yusuf, what if you say comes true and EJ increase the price and India decides to keep them off from every defense contract. Yusuf as you said, you are a business men, then would you just increase price of one product for a big customer, where you know that you can be potentially out of lot of future orders.

 

[Rage]

Bummer! damn dem politicians and their damned politics. Clearly the Rolls engine is a better choice and it even has 'bliscs', so what if its its a bit longer just ask your pilots to be extra careful while landing. If its still a 'BIG' deal then I'm sure the nice folks at Rolls can snip it a little - how hard can it be - right !? :thinking:

And you're absolutely right there is so much excess stress on the engine it last only 6000 hours.
I'm sure the EJ200 is like way more than that - it probably like 90,000 hours or something.

If it helps I will write to my senator and ask that this sale be rejected immediately.

Really? I never knew it did.

Yeah right, I'll ask my pilots to be 'extra, extra careful' when they land.

And you can ask Rolls Royce to 'snip it a little', your senator to jump down the well, or whatever.

While we're on the subject, deathbycholocate, can you tell me what the GE's offering in terms of full ToT? 3D TVC? Or potential for integration on the AMCA?

You think we've never heard of the bullshit called EULA your senators pull, even while you bend your 'best friend' to the west backward and f*&* them up the arse?

 

[vijay jagannathan]

in the prevailing world political scenario India is playing it right. There is a very high chance GE will not get the required approval in 121 days. so India would not in any way have offended USA. eventually US will hammer itself and the gates would be open to EJ. good move.

 

[Yusuf]

Ritesh and yusuf, what if you say comes true and EJ increase the price and India decides to keep them off from every defense contract. Yusuf as you said, you are a business men, then would you just increase price of one product for a big customer, where you know that you can be potentially out of lot of future orders.

Nitesh right now india has only two choices. Not too good to play around with anyone isnt it. The losing party will feel aggrieved esp when it has already offered all that was required including ToT. But still India goes for GE. Now if GE does not fulfill all the requirement including the crucial ToT that was already on the offer by EJ and then India decides to go to EJ because we have no choice, why would EJ be obliged to stick to its previous offer which was rejected?

If India has chosen GE, then it should be prepared to use it even without ToT as a pure buyer seller deal. Buy the goods and use it and wait till we have Kaveri come up to that standard.

 

[Agantrope]

@thakur_ritesh

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest thrust F414 variant, and it includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control

Any details on the thrust specifications?

 

[Agantrope]

Dada, it seems you are missing some crucial points. In the tender process, when the price negotiation is done with two parties, both submit there final version of the deal (price, terms and conditions) with the committee. Based on that committee decides which one to ahead with. Now as GE seems to be emerged as winner, so this means that EJ has also played out there cards and it is documented. So in case GE falters, the contract go to EJ, no re negotiation needed. And ADA has studied both the engines and they must be knowing by now, what modifications will be needed if they put one or another engine. So the delay will be max by some months.

Wont cost escalation and inflation be part in the price fixing of the thing?

This will show them a clear picture that the GE wont get approval and will the contract go back to the EU?:emot180:

A bump in the road for the tejas:angry_10:

 

[Agantrope]

Ritesh and yusuf, what if you say comes true and EJ increase the price and India decides to keep them off from every defense contract. Yusuf as you said, you are a business men, then would you just increase price of one product for a big customer, where you know that you can be potentially out of lot of future orders.

Nitesh, a businessman should have a broader view, if i am going to get lot of order today might tomorrow i wont get if the same thing is ready with customer by another means. So i would rather kill the parent source, this what is clearly done by the Unkil, europeans are yet to be given a chance?

 

[EagleOne]

@thakur_ritesh

Any details on the thrust specifications?

our rfp issued trust of 95-100kn so it will be in between it ////////////

 

[nitesh]

Nitesh right now india has only two choices. Not too good to play around with anyone isnt it. The losing party will feel aggrieved esp when it has already offered all that was required including ToT. But still India goes for GE. Now if GE does not fulfill all the requirement including the crucial ToT that was already on the offer by EJ and then India decides to go to EJ because we have no choice, why would EJ be obliged to stick to its previous offer which was rejected?

If India has chosen GE, then it should be prepared to use it even without ToT as a pure buyer seller deal. Buy the goods and use it and wait till we have Kaveri come up to that standard.

Yusuf dada, have you ever submitted a tender? There is specific clause which mentions that you have to provide the price which should be valid for that period. If some body plays dirty, and escalates the prices unanimously, then they will be black listed and there whole business arm gets effected. Now about aggrieved portion, this is your thinking not the fact.

 

[pmaitra]

Let us for the moment trust ADA with their decision. They know better than us about several things vis-a-vis installation of the GE or Eurojet engines onto the LCA airframe. I am sure they have factored in many things, such as, but no limited to:

• Price
• Support
• Integration with current controls
• Modifications required for the airframe/fuselage

In any event, let us enjoy the videos of the GE F414:

 

[pmaitra]

Nitesh right now india has only two choices. Not too good to play around with anyone isnt it. The losing party will feel aggrieved esp when it has already offered all that was required including ToT. But still India goes for GE. Now if GE does not fulfill all the requirement including the crucial ToT that was already on the offer by EJ and then India decides to go to EJ because we have no choice, why would EJ be obliged to stick to its previous offer which was rejected?

If India has chosen GE, then it should be prepared to use it even without ToT as a pure buyer seller deal. Buy the goods and use it and wait till we have Kaveri come up to that standard.

Not sure what you meant by being prepared to use it without ToT. The following report states otherwise:

India picks GE's F414 for Tejas MkII fighter
By Craig Hoyle


General Electric has defeated the Eurojet consortium in a contest to provide the engine for a new version of India's long-delayed Tejas light combat aircraft.

The US manufacturer has won a deal to supply 99 F414-INS6 turbofans for the Tejas MkII, following a selection decision by India's Aeronautical Development Agency.

"GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology arrangement," says GE India chief executive John Flannery in a 1 October statement.

"The F414-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model and includes state-of-the-art technology to meet India's demanding air force and naval requirements," GE says. This includes full authority digital engine control software.

India had requested bids to provide a more powerful engine for the next version of its Tejas lightweight fighter, and shortlisted proposals on both the new version of the F414 - a type which powers Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab's Gripen NG demonstrator - and the Eurofighter Typhoon's Eurojet EJ200.

New Delhi has previously ordered 41 less-powerful GE F404 engines to power early examples of the Tejas, while plans to field the Gas Turbine Research Establishment's indigenous Kaveri have suffered numerous delays.

© Aeronautical Development Agency

The Indian air force wants more power for its Tejas fighters

The F414 selection comes as a major blow to Eurojet partner companies Avio, ITP, MTU Aero Engines and Rolls-Royce.

The European consortium had hoped to produce the EJ200 for the Tejas and also offer operational benefits through its commonality with the power plant for the Typhoon: a candidate for the Indian air force's 126-unit medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. Part of the Eurojet bid had included an offer to jointly develop a thrust-vectoring capability for the Tejas.
The Gripen NG and Super Hornet are also in contention for India's MMRCA contract, along with the Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RSK MiG-35.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...ia-picks-ges-f414-for-tejas-mkii-fighter.html

 

[Yusuf]

Yusuf dada, have you ever submitted a tender? There is specific clause which mentions that you have to provide the price which should be valid for that period. If some body plays dirty, and escalates the prices unanimously, then they will be black listed and there whole business arm gets effected. Now about aggrieved portion, this is your thinking not the fact.

i have said as much about time frame. the quote will have a validity. normal govt tenders have 90 days but obviously the ones for the engines will have a little longer. i dont think they will keep it valid beyond 2011 end.

wonder if anyone can get details on the validity of the quote??

 

[Yusuf]

pmaitra, we are discussing the possibility of GE not getting clearance for ToT.

 

[pmaitra]

Yusuf dada, have you ever submitted a tender? There is specific clause which mentions that you have to provide the price which should be valid for that period. If some body plays dirty, and escalates the prices unanimously, then they will be black listed and there whole business arm gets effected. Now about aggrieved portion, this is your thinking not the fact.

You are quire right. Why should there be any grief expressed by Eurojet? One participant in that project is MTU Aero (Motoren- und Turbinen-Union München AG). Aren't we already doing business with MTU (Motoren- und Turbinen-Union Friedrichshafen GmbH) with our Arjun project? It is business as usual.

 

[nitesh]

i have said as much about time frame. the quote will have a validity. normal govt tenders have 90 days but obviously the ones for the engines will have a little longer. i dont think they will keep it valid beyond 2011 end.

wonder if anyone can get details on the validity of the quote??

Yes boss you are right, the normal validity is for 90 days, but that is for normal equipments. Even for communication equipments, they ask for price validity for 6-8 months. So for this specific deal this must have been taken care off

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra, we are discussing the possibility of GE not getting clearance for ToT.

I understand that quite well. In the event the clearance is not given, which I trust will be given, then ADA will have the option of backing out (such clauses are almost always part of such deals). In fact it is not a deal at all, since ToT is part of the deal and that is acknowledged by GE itself.

We can have high hopes it will be given, given the US economy and their need for cash.

 

[Yusuf]

Yes boss you are right, the normal validity is for 90 days, but that is for normal equipments. Even for communication equipments, they ask for price validity for 6-8 months. So for this specific deal this must have been taken care off

I think the GE deal is looking at the timeline of 2012 to finalize. If the deal fall through then, do you think EJ would have quoted a 2 year validity for the deal?