ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[pmaitra]

Apparently there seems to be a slight leaning towards GE on part of HAL because they have already mated the GE F404 Engine with the LCA for the prototypical trials. Let us keep in mind that this very act has caused the HAL Engineers to develop certain rapport with GE Engineers which Eurojet probably does not enjoy.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Technical is one point political is another. Though it is a fact that ADA enjoys familiarity with GE engines but at the same time ADA know exactly how sharp is the edge of sword on which they have been walking throughout development period. I mean you need just one minor sanction and entire LCA project will be thrown into dust bin. Ponit is, why buy so much uncertainty? And BTW believe me or not percentage of GE 414 ToT will be ages behind AL-31s.

 

[nitesh]

ouch.......

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: "LCA Far Ahead Of JF-17 In Contemporary Technology": IAF Western Commander

 

[anoop_mig25]

why do not drdo publish all reports all the tenders so that everything things becames transparent

 

[abirbec04]

I have also heard about the size issues with GE F414 but purely from a specs point of view the GE F414 has more thrust and for a small fighter like Tejas which does not necessarily need Thrust Vectoring it is indeed a good choice. But I am not in favor of Gripen, would want Typhoon in our Air Force. If we indeed go for US fighter, F/A 18 Super-Hornet won't be bad at all which is powered by 2 GE F414 engines. Plus the possibility of a carrier fleet with a legacy fighter like the Super-hornet.

Going American isn't bad all the time and if we go American we would definitely get the planes faster to shore up our fleet strength. Probably recent reports of Luftwaffe grounding their entire Typhoon fleet has had some effect. Lets see ... cost wise F/A 18 Super-hornet is much cheaper than Typhoon and the Rafale.

 

[Agantrope]

Any gurus pls enlighten r we going for EPE engine or the one like in the gripen?

 

[Agantrope]

There is a talk like we should not put all out eggs into one basket since Army bought ANTPQ WLRs. But now it looks like it actually was "India should not put all eggs in old basket but instead buy new cage".

Lets see how the GE will get the clearance from the US congress for the ToT of the F414, 121 days is the time, even if GE starts now, i suspect they would fail a big time.

My 2 2 paisa
DRDO thing to make the JV-Kaveri in Mk-II
Unkil's usual trick to stop the indigenous industry.

IMO GoI should have a strong Plan-B such that it shud pi$$ if we are pi$$ in high time

 

[Patriot]

GE Statement: F414-powered LCA's Mission Superiority Enhanced With Indian Expertise

Just received this from GE: India's Aeronautical Development Agency has selected 99 nos. F414-GE-INS6 afterburning engines and kits to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force.

Commenting on this development, John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement."

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-rated F414 model and includes state-of-the-art technology to meet India's demanding Air Force and Naval requirements. Technical advances include a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and added single-engine safety features.

"We are extremely pleased with the ADA's decision, and are confident that India's technical expertise will help enhance the F414-powered LCA's mission superiority well into the 21st century," said Tony Mathis, Vice President of Lynn Military Systems programs.

This selection follows earlier orders of 24 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines in 2007, plus an initial 2004 purchase of 17 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.

With more than one million flight-hours, the F414 engine continues to exceed United States Navy goals for reliability and time on wing. To date, more than 1,000 F414 engines have been delivered, supporting more than 415 aircraft in the fleet.






Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: GE Statement: F414-powered LCA’s Mission Superiority Enhanced With Indian Expertise

 

[death.by.chocolate]

I don't like this.

The GE F414 falls short on thrust at 90-98 kn, is heavier than, and therefore has a lower thrust-weight ratio than the Eurojet, and even though it has a higher pressure-ratio, that only means excess stress and heat on the engine. I also don't know if the F414 has anything like the low-density single crystal 'bliscs' that come coupled with ATCC (Active-Tip Clearence Control) to allow negotiation between the blade tip and turbine case.

This seems to be a political decision and I don't like it.

Bummer! damn dem politicians and their damned politics. Clearly the Rolls engine is a better choice and it even has 'bliscs', so what if its its a bit longer just ask your pilots to be extra careful while landing. If its still a 'BIG' deal then I'm sure the nice folks at Rolls can snip it a little - how hard can it be - right !? :thinking:

And you're absolutely right there is so much excess stress on the engine it last only 6000 hours.
I'm sure the EJ200 is like way more than that - it probably like 90,000 hours or something.

If it helps I will write to my senator and ask that this sale be rejected immediately.

 

[nitesh]

Guys, let's wait for the dust to clear. We know that US companies will need to get approval to be able to do ToT. Going by past expeerience I feel it will be a miracle if GE gets the clearence and work can begin. It's not long time before we will here the final verdict

 

[pmaitra]

why do not drdo publish all reports all the tenders so that everything things becames transparent

With the Right to Information Act, any news channel can demand the details of the deals. Such deals, though defense deals, fall under RTI (correct me if I am wrong) and anyone can access the information therein. However, it would be easier for new channels to extract the information than for ordinary citizens. I hope someone does that.

With the Bofors Scandal in backdrop, I have a feeling the news channels will raise dust if something goes wrong with this.

 

[Phenom]

Guys, let's wait for the dust to clear. We know that US companies will need to get approval to be able to do ToT. Going by past expeerience I feel it will be a miracle if GE gets the clearence and work can begin. It's not long time before we will here the final verdict

But isn't that only going to lead to more delays? If GE can't get the necessary approval, they are likely to ask for more time, which means longer delays for a plane that's already running far behind schedule.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

why do not drdo publish all reports all the tenders so that everything things becames transparent

is drdo a public limited company, as in are its shares listed up in the stock market and traded? if yes, then they are bound to, if no, i dont think they are obliged to and in the latter case they just need to report the highest authority and in this case that would be the MoD and nothing beyound.

 

[nitesh]

But isn't that only going to lead to more delays? If GE can't get the necessary approval, they are likely to ask for more time, which means longer delays for a plane that's already running far behind schedule.

They can not hold us infinitely, max some months, according to this link:

American engine to power LCA

Defence ministry indicate that negotiations with GE will continue at least until mid-2011. Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India.

If they can't then the contract goes to EJ

Added later: So this puts balls in US court, if they refuse to ToT then implications will be bigger for them . And if they accept, then well, we have a good engine with good knowledge transfer

 

[Yusuf]

They can not hold us infinitely, max some months, according to this link:

American engine to power LCA



If they can't then the contract goes to EJ

Added later: So this puts balls in US court, if they refuse to ToT then implications will be bigger for them . And if they accept, then well, we have a good engine with good knowledge transfer

Dont they know that the terms of the tender demands ToT. If yes, they should have participated after getting due clearance. Whats the point otherwise? Also this engine thing should be settled well before then MRCA is decided. That will give us a clue what the Americans are up to and give us clearer picture as to which way we should look. But i cannot imagine why GE would participate in the first place without having official or unofficial clearance for ToT.

 

[nitesh]

Dont they know that the terms of the tender demands ToT. If yes, they should have participated after getting due clearance. Whats the point otherwise? Also this engine thing should be settled well before then MRCA is decided. That will give us a clue what the Americans are up to and give us clearer picture as to which way we should look. But i cannot imagine why GE would participate in the first place without having official or unofficial clearance for ToT.

Yusuf, you must have heard that Boeing even after winning the flight test envelop and NLCA consultancy contract didn't got permission from US DoD to go ahead with it. And EADS is helping in. This time if they allow it, well go ahead. If they don't, then they know what is at stake.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

They can not hold us infinitely, max some months, according to this link:

American engine to power LCA



If they can't then the contract goes to EJ

Added later: So this puts balls in US court, if they refuse to ToT then implications will be bigger for them . And if they accept, then well, we have a good engine with good knowledge transfer

the point being made by phenom is significant.

mid 2011 + 121days (4months) + 2months extension = jan 2012 plus/minus 2 months. then we will renegotiate for EJ for by then there would have been a price negotiation which means if eventually we dont go ge engine then we will be with an engine up till mid-to-end 2012 and then further delays. lca mk-II if delays happen wont hit the scene prior to 2015-16.

 

[nitesh]

the point being made by phenom is significant.

mid 2011 + 121days (4months) + 2months extension = jan 2012 plus/minus 2 months. then we will renegotiate for EJ for by then there would have been a price negotiation which means if eventually we dont go ge engine then we will be with an engine up till mid-to-end 2012 and then further delays. lca mk-II if delays happen wont hit the scene prior to 2015-16.

Dada, it seems you are missing some crucial points. In the tender process, when the price negotiation is done with two parties, both submit there final version of the deal (price, terms and conditions) with the committee. Based on that committee decides which one to ahead with. Now as GE seems to be emerged as winner, so this means that EJ has also played out there cards and it is documented. So in case GE falters, the contract go to EJ, no re negotiation needed. And ADA has studied both the engines and they must be knowing by now, what modifications will be needed if they put one or another engine. So the delay will be max by some months.

 

[Yusuf]

Nitesh, the stakes are higher for India i feel as national security is at stake. We need the engines and quick. I will just tell you what i did with a customer. I quoted him a price for a certain item. He ordered it from me. Then when the material was ready he said he wants a price reduction and then only he will take the material. now this item that i have is not available readily in the market. That customer went about in the market asking for it so that he gets a better price. He didnt get it. He came back to me asking for the material. I increased my price by 50% to that guy saying take it or leave it. He was forced to buy.

Now this analogy does not fit in this case, but i will explain.

We go for GE engine today because of its price. Now it will drag till 2012. The deal falls through. Then we go to EJ. They have already been hurt by us for our previous rejection. They quote a price twice as before not counting inflation take it or leave it. What do you do? Screwed big time!! I would do it if i was EJ. This is why we are striving for indigenous products, but till the time it does not come, we should work try to dictate terms to them, but if it does not happen, work on their terms. Dont insist on ToT if you want the engine, just buy it. RE it and try to learn from it etc and use it till the time we have our own stuff. We have to be practical and not waste time.

 

[nitesh]

Yusuf, what you are saying is right, but in this case customer who has created a ruckus not you. Here, the decision has been taken in a defined manner. And in the process if something is cheaper the tilt will be towards the cheaper option. EJ didn't lowered the prices, so now if GE falters, EJ will get the order in there quoted price. What you are saying is your speculation buddy not the fact on the ground. The same thing happened with LCA consultancy where EADS has won the order after Boeing not getting the approval from US DoD. Have they increased the prices at that time?