ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Armand2REP]

Since it is an indigenous product it does not needs competitive bidding or even competitive trails for selection for transparency. It even does not have to beat EL-2052 or RBE-2T etc in every parameter. It just need to meet stipulated requirements more or less. Because it is an indigenous product it enjoys these favours.

Uttam is not over weight by 40 kgs as per airframe. Just that it weights 40 kgs over hybrid MMR that Tejas presently flies with.

In any case presently Tejas carries dead weights in nose to offset for weight imbalance somewhere else. Once Uttam gets aboard these dead weights will be removed. So this 40kgs extra is not much of any concern.

Uttam is overweight by 40kgs for the Mk1a tender, simple fact why it was not considered. Tejas is not a ship or submarine that carries ballast, every gram is accounted for especially when they want stronger engines.

We have a very bad taste dealing with French. Many times negotiations took more time than it usually takes to develop a concerned product. That is all after being ready to pay through nose.

Actually you have a very good taste dealing with French which is why GoI wants more tie-ups. The bad taste has a Russian flavour.

Regardless, in this case Uttam is already getting integrated with LSP-2. While global tender is still moving a snail's pace. No technical evaluations yet let alone commercial bidding followed by negotiations and signing of contract. And we don't know what will happen when at technical negotiations HAL will ask for what we call 100 % ToT?

It is being integrated on a testbed for Mk2. It still needs better engines for IOC as it is 40kg overweight.

 

[mayfair]

Actually you have a very good taste dealing with French which is why GoI wants more tie-ups. The bad taste has a Russian flavour.

You guys did shaft us with the original M2K deal in 1980s. The planes arrived with absolutely nothing. Initially there were talks of license manufacture, then you jacked up the prices forcing us into piecemeal orders, since the economy was not so good back then. Of course, it allowed Soviets to offer Mig 29 to us and well, sealing the fate of M2K deal.

Then we were shafted again on the upgrade. $2 billion without an engine upgrade?? Seriously?

I am certain the same pattern will repeat with Rafales, especially when it comes to weapons systems.

You really haven't fulfilled your side of the bargain in the Shakti engine deal. How much ToT have we received? A few years ago we attempted to ship a few ALH to Myanmar, but your guys blocked the deal since Shakti engine is made under license agreement.

Then there is the DCNS leak about Scorpenes..

 

[Armand2REP]

You guys did shaft us with the original M2K deal in 1980s. The planes arrived with absolutely nothing. Initially there were talks of license manufacture, then you jacked up the prices forcing us into piecemeal orders, since the economy was not so good back then. Of course, it allowed Soviets to offer Mig 29 to us and well, sealing the fate of M2K deal.

Then we were shafted again on the upgrade. $2 billion without an engine upgrade?? Seriously?

I am certain the same pattern will repeat with Rafales, especially when it comes to weapons systems.

You really haven't fulfilled your side of the bargain in the Shakti engine deal. How much ToT have we received? A few years ago we attempted to ship a few ALH to Myanmar, but your guys blocked the deal since Shakti engine is made under license agreement.

Then there is the DCNS leak about Scorpenes..

You got M2000 at market rates with the contract completed as signed. Last time I checked IAF was quite happy with them and the service recieved. What upgraded engine do you want? The one that doesn't exist? Production was shutdown 10 years ago, it is obsolete next to Rafale where all development work was shifted.

According to Amnesty International the Dhruv export to Myanmar was cancelled because "The Dhruv helicopter also incorporates U.S. parts. The active vibration control system is made by Lord Corporation in North Carolina. U.S. companies supplying components to India that could be used for the Dhruv should expect increased scrutiny if the delivery to Myanmar takes place."

For Shakti, you got what was in the contract. I have yet to see one example of a contract that was not honoured as written. The examples from Russia are running in the dozens.

 

[FactsPlease]

I personally don`t believe Tejas MK2 program is anywhere near danger, Rather focus is on MK1A whose primary job is to keep production line busy ..

I hope everyone realises that the MK.2 WILL be killed off for the sake of this pointless foreign single engine fighter procurement...

Obviously we have two totally-opposite comments regarding Mk2 is on life support or not. Which one is true?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Grab some popcorn and see, how things get done ..

 

[Steven Rogers]

I hope everyone realises that the MK.2 WILL be killed off for the sake of this pointless foreign single engine fighter procurement that Modi is pushing fro reasons unknown.

This will also come at the cost of the Uttam and Kaveri projects.


Look at the facts, ACM said last week that the SE fighter RFI will be released soon given the typical RFI--->RFP--->Contract signature----> Delivery timeline of 7-8 years for Indian deals this is around 2024/5 for the first F-16s to enter service in India ie exactly when the Mk.2 is meant to enter production/service for the IAF. Now the Mk.2 is going to be able to do >80% (plus) of what the F16/Gripen can do at a fraction of the cost so tell me how it would be tolerated by the foreign OEMs? No, there is no doubt about it- the Mk.2 project is being killed off by Modi, the Mk.1A may just be an attempt to pacify any possible allegations of treason.

India will pay >$10b for 90 outdated F-16s to fund American's MIC whilst sacrificing its own, that is the sad reality.

Tejas mk2 is slated to do 150 percent than the latest and last F16s.... Your are crying on Uttam aesa, let AMCA a prototype, their would various GaN modules on Uttam replacing GaA(for later batches of tejas) , also probably you have little knowledge of EW suite of tejas mk2, They have scattered active array all over the the body just like rafale, DRFM based jamming and active cancelation of radar waves, none this found on any f16s, however it is also in gripen...

 

[singh100ful]

Obviously we have two totally-opposite comments regarding Mk2 is on life support or not. Which one is true?

The second one seems to be more true at this point of time.
IAF is now finalizing the ASQR for Tejas MK1A that means there is no ASQR for LCA MK2
The IAF has stated that they will induct Tejas MK1A only after its performance being verified, this statement only enforces that it is either delaying tactic or lack of confidence.
So for now LCA MK2 seems to be a distinct possibility.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It best not to make assumption coz someone will sure take it as a fact ..

MK2 came before MK1A, Work on MK2 begun a long back than MK1A ..

IAF is now finalizing the ASQR for Tejas MK1A that means there is no ASQR for LCA MK2

 

[Rahul Singh]

Uttam is overweight by 40kgs for the Mk1a tender, simple fact why it was not considered.

And where did you find in RFQ the required weight of MMR to be under 80Kgs?

Tejas is not a ship or submarine that carries ballast, every gram is accounted for especially when they want stronger engines.

See...............Till date, Tejas is carrying ballasts in different sections including the nose. In other words, the full potential of Tejas is still to be realised and there are enough margins in different sectors.

Actually you have a very good taste dealing with French which is why GoI wants more tie-ups. The bad taste has a Russian flavour.

Case in point is M-MRCA negotiations that died on the table after wasting 5 years. I will elaborate no further as I am not interested in derailing this thread.

Just want to add that our taste while purchasing through competitive bidding is very bitter in general. Eg. MRTT

It is being integrated on a testbed for Mk2.

Old news.

Uttam was originally intended for MK-2 before the proposal for MK-1A came forth. Since the arrival of project MK-1A much has changed.

Uttam for MK-2 was a safe bait given time margins which MK-2's timeline was providing. But when the requirement of an AESA in Mk-1 as MK-1A's MMR came into existence in 2015, the LRDE reportedly speed up the development of Uttam to see if it can match MK-1A's timeline. And today we know they are already integrating it on LSP-2, after extensively testing it on the ground(rooftop actually).

It is interesting to add that earlier EL-2052 was considered an obvious choice, even by HAL because of the restricted timeline. But now, we know, there is an open tender for supplying AESA for MK-1A, which will take its own sweet time to materialise. The time in which Uttam will undergo testing onboard Tejas LSP-2. And if it concludes its development before global tender materialises it will become logical choice.

Going by the history of purchases through competitive bidding I have little doubt as which will eventually win the race.

It still needs better engines for IOC as it is 40kg overweight.

Present day AESAs are scalable and so is Uttam.

Anyone who has seen the PPP video from Aero India 17 cannot miss the fact that final weight of Uttam will depend on the size of its antenna and an appropriate cooling system which in turn will depend on intended power output. Something which will be specified by HAL on recommendations of IAF.

 

[lcafanboy]

GOOD NEWS for LCA MK1A & Rafales: Cross posting from IDF Parikrama

Tomorrow is Diwali and i wish to bring you few positive news coming from corridors of power.

• Even though DM NS has been touring multiple places, there has been hectic discussion on Fighter jet procurement between PMO, MOD officials, IAF and DM on phone.
• NSA Doval is actively involved as well and has given inputs which may tilt the jet deal purchase.
• Numerous attempts has been made by PMO to get a approval from IAF for F-16 and a total USA shift with F-35 coming in place of FGFA program
• PAKFA Stage 2 limited 4 squads to be procured off the shelf to pacify Russia in lieu of the FGFA "frozen" status.
• BUT here comes the BIG TWIST - LUCK & PERSISTENCE won the day for IAF
• Few News that will find way to main stream media over time is
  • POTUS Trump has done numerous U Turns and latest seems to have taken the air out of PM NM confidence levels on growing USA India relationship.
  • POTUS Trump wants America first and wishes maximum jobs in America and limited work in India TASL for MII Program
  • In reality he wishes to meet MII terms in a way which benefits his America first campaign more.
  • He wants F-16 program shifted to India superficially as long as things are produced in America and generate American Employment.
  • POTUS has expressed dis-satisfaction via Embassy officials for non cooperation in Afghanistan front where POTUS wanted India to commit at least 5000 boots officially.
  • On Top in a big shift POTUS also explained that India can be member of Security Council but without any Veto Power and this is what China and Russia also wants personally.
  • NSG deal is still under consideration but India needs to demonstrate the USA shift before any more "hard work" is to be done by USA for making other members agree on India inclusion.
  • To further the cause, POTUS sanctioned EMALS tech to India for its IAC-2 carrier but wants F-18 SH selected for IAC-1 (57 MRCBF) with minimal offsets.
  • There are more strategic issues as well with emphasis to contain Pakistan verbally but doing limited work in reality.
  • For Gripen as well POTUS made it clear that he will actively discourage personally all American MIC for any deal but in media he will do a PR work and say otherwise.
  • All this discussion over last fortnight with US officials and PMO has dented PM NM confidence in a big way.
• This body blow has come in a bad time when FGFA deal is becoming increasingly difficult and also Russia wants more of deals without any offsets.
• Russia has now offered Mig-35 for IAF again in 1st week of October with revised offer of Engine tech like MKI deal and have asked India to look at this deal if FGFA falters.
• In lieu of all this PM NM has gone soft and said go slow with LM and Boeing deals till he gets more clarity and avoid U Turns from POTUS.
• This is a marked shift from earlier G2G route he wanted to take and close out things asap for a concrete media blitz before 2019 polls.

Now where is the good news ? here comes the good news...

• French Safranised Kaveri is on track and a report has been submitted of the progress.
• The Dassualt Team and French government has submitted a list of possible systems which they want to integrate into LCA Mk1A and make it far more portent deriving from Rafale and Mirage experiences and feedback from IAF who had given detailed feedback on M2Ks
• Their plan is to make LCA Mk1A far more modular internally and ease of systems integration for a growth potential upside.
• MII offer has been sweetened in a big way via these integrations and DRAL becoming a player in LCA Ecosystem.
• Rafale Program is further boosted with a hybrid new Engine boost- amalgamation of Kaveri variable cycle with M-88 core to create a family of engines is now official and on black and white.
• Same size, same core, same modularity and similar tech powering both LCA Mk1A and Rafale India
• This engine will also be Made in India.
• Officially the Rafale M wingtip is now getting tested with a mechanism to disintegrate in 5 minutes and fit into <10m span and re attaching the same in max 15 minutes with another 5 minutes for a full system check.
• This system is planned for IAC-1 deployment and is part of the offering under "further research point" in naval tender.
• The MII plan is further accelerated with French side clearly saying UAE and another order amounting to almost 78 Rafales in total will be supplied via DRAL when MII factory is up and running as well.
• These Export Orders and their MRO will be DRAL India only as per French officials.
• French state visits and Team Dassault will be strong in next 4 months with a emphasis to seal the deal asap on Rafale MII.
• In civil side, Falcon Jet production is also given a go ahead to give more value for DRAL India.

And lastly, in lieu of all these discussions and PM NM reluctance to sign F-16 deal, there is one another good news.

NSA Doval has emphasized on fast tracking Rafale deal for MII over SE deals and any other order.


Personal Comment
So Diwali has been good for IAF.. Now i hope the rest of the things gets done as well on time.

French side has a small window of opportunity and a big winner by their side. They should contact NSA and IAF and close this MII deal out soon..

A full detailed public information dissemination of LCA Mk1A with proposed French systems and how they plan to add and benefit LCA Ecosystem will go a long way..

Hopefully if i get more information on this, will share it here as well.....

For now PMO dream of USA shift is on hold.. Cant blame PM NM.. POTUS Trump is inconsistent with his views.. That will be a big challenge for India for any concrete move...

 

[Rahul Singh]

• Rafale Program is further boosted with a hybrid new Engine boost- amalgamation of Kaveri variable cycle with M-88 core to create a family of engines is now official and on black and white.

• Same size, same core, same modularity and similar tech powering both LCA Mk1A and Rafale India

Sounds interesting. Kindly elaborate in terms of how Tejas could benefit from this development and what's the proposed Times? Also by saying "Family of Engines" does this means an appropriate engine for Tejas MK-2 also?

Thanks!

 

[WolfPack86]

At last PM Modi realised his mistake by trusting Trump blindly. It is better to focus on Tejas, Rafale Make in India, and quickly sign FGFA deal and it is better to cancel single engine fighter deal and focus on Tejas mark 2.

 

[WolfPack86]

Happy Diwali to all forum members.

 

[WolfPack86]

Hope we hear good news regarding Rafale fighter jet procurment and Tejas development.

 

[lcafanboy]

Sounds interesting. Kindly elaborate in terms of how Tejas could benefit from this development and what's the proposed Times? Also by saying "Family of Engines" does this means an appropriate engine for Tejas MK-2 also?

Thanks!

Well from what I can make out is we won't require LCA Mk-2. If LCA Mk-1A gets powerful engine with 63/95 or even 60/90 kn thrust which is target for Kaveri engine k-9 and bring down weight of LCA Mk1A by even 600 KGS it will become a kick ass Fighter. Combined with AESA radar, irst, maws, spectra type ew, sensor fusion LCA will out gun Gripen and f-16 both.

Now many will question why would Dassault do that. Simple, because if LCA succeeds there will be no single engine Fighter coming and Dassault will have free run to sell Rafales in huge numbers and other French vendors too will get bigger pie by selling LRUs for LCA Mk1A and then for AMCA too. There's a talk for co-development of AMCA with India, France & Germany.

 

[lcafanboy]

Cross Post from IDF Parikrama

Source confirmed Safranised Kaveri is going to France for advance testing.. the approval for the same is through..... There are some niggles which require testing in France and then the advance testing in a test bed..

The dispatch will happen within next 30 days to France for work to start...

Will share more details when received..

 

[rohit b3]

Well from what I can make out is we won't require LCA Mk-2. If LCA Mk-1A gets powerful engine with 63/95 or even 60/90 kn thrust which is target for Kaveri engine k-9 and bring down weight of LCA Mk1A by even 600 KGS it will become a kick ass Fighter. Combined with AESA radar, irst, maws, spectra type ew, sensor fusion LCA will out gun Gripen and f-16 both.

Now many will question why would Dassault do that. Simple, because if LCA succeeds there will be no single engine Fighter coming and Dassault will have free run to sell Rafales in huge numbers and other French vendors too will get bigger pie by selling LRUs for LCA Mk1A and then for AMCA too. There's a talk for co-development of AMCA with India, France & Germany.

Mk2 will still be required. Though Kaveri can be used on the Tejas mk2, provided it can reach a 63/95 thrust, that was not the only reason for developing the Tejas mk2.
The Tejas design can further be evolved and refined. It can be made slightly larger to improve range , payload and perhaps G loading as well.
It should be able to accommodate more onboard capabilities(IRST, better EW ,etc which you mentioned) which the Tejas mk1/mk1A cannot due to limited space.
But if the Kaveri is successful , fitting the GE414 wont be a headache anymore and we would have one less major aspect to worry about.

Tejas mk1A can enter service with the few additional qualities it is meant to. All the major changes can be done with the Tejas mk2 by 2024.

 

[lcafanboy]

Mk2 will still be required. Though Kaveri can be used on the Tejas mk2, provided it can reach a 63/95 thrust, that was not the only reason for developing the Tejas mk2.
The Tejas design can further be evolved and refined. It can be made slightly larger to improve range , payload and perhaps G loading as well.
It should be able to accommodate more onboard capabilities(IRST, better EW ,etc which you mentioned) which the Tejas mk1/mk1A cannot due to limited space.
But if the Kaveri is successful , fitting the GE414 wont be a headache anymore and we would have one less major aspect to worry about.

Tejas mk1A can enter service with the few additional qualities it is meant to. All the major changes can be done with the Tejas mk2 by 2024.

Please read carefully Dassault team is proposing to make LCA Mk1A modular and maintenance friendly. Combat radius of LCA is already 500 KMS which is good enough for porkistan and comparable to Gripen and f-16. Instead of LCA mk2, LCA stealth could be the next step which can come in 2030-35 with ample time at hand.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Well from what I can make out is we won't require LCA Mk-2.

LCA MK-2 in its IAF avatar is a waste of effort and time without a doubt. But MK-2 in its Naval avatar could give Gripen E/F run for its money globally. Which also means a highly capable +4.5 gen fighter in single engine category for meeting IAF's workhorse requirement. This fighter can be realised in 6-7 years if properly planned and executed.

If LCA Mk-1A gets powerful engine with 63/95 or even 60/90 kn thrust which is target for Kaveri engine k-9 and bring down weight of LCA Mk1A by even 600 KGS it will become a kick ass Fighter. Combined with AESA radar, irst, maws, spectra type ew, sensor fusion LCA will out gun Gripen and f-16 both.

I share your optimism. But delaying MK-1A for Kaveri may be too much of a risk. However, if K-9 is certified before 2020 then it can still be fit into last 40 of 83 MK-1As.

MK-1A, in any case, is supposed to shave 500-600 kgs over baseline MK-1. So its gonna have better aerodynamic performance over MK-1 regardless of K-9 or F-404.

As far as IRST is concerned, I don't think there is any space left for an internal IRST, podded however is very much possible.

Now many will question why would Dassault do that. Simple, because if LCA succeeds there will be no single engine Fighter coming and Dassault will have free run to sell Rafales in huge numbers and other French vendors too will get bigger pie by selling LRUs for LCA Mk1A and then for AMCA too. There's a talk for co-development of AMCA with India, France & Germany.

I don't think it is any smart to kill multiple projects like Uttam MMR, Mayavi EW, Astra MK 1/2, SDFR and many more sensor and weapon projects just because one can have Safaranised K-9.

If french are ready to do modular Kaveri for LCA family and as well as for IAF Rafales then it's ok. Let's order 36 more and ask for ToT and local assembly with provision for integration of Indian weapons and sensors on Rafale. Anything less...........Why settle for less? I am 100% pure biased when it comes to Indian interests.

At last PM Modi realised his mistake by trusting Trump blindly. It is better to focus on Tejas, Rafale Make in India, and quickly sign FGFA deal and it is better to cancel single engine fighter deal and focus on Tejas mark 2.

In politics you try your partners as well as opponents. I don't think there was ever a case of trusting Tump blindly. PM Modi is a very smart politician and his geopolitical team is a crack force.

Single engine deal was always a public face of another deal of strategic importance. And this deal will fail only when that strategic deal fails.........There was never any logic for buying another single-engine fighter when Tejas was ready.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Please read carefully Dassault team is proposing to make LCA Mk1A modular and maintenance friendly.

What is modular other than putting multiple sensors under single LRU? If so is the case then basically what Dassult will be doing is replacing indigenous LRUs with one of its choice, which may or may not be indigenous?

So what we will end up gaining? A french Tejas MK-1A?