ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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Bhoot Pishach

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DM Parikar made them start & almost complete Kaveri engine before we signed Rafale deal, only flight testing remains now, which will be done next year (Kaveri will be taken to France in 30 days as per Parikrama) and that's the reason they are now demanding we order more Rafales for the co-operation they are extending for LCA Mk1A......
They are demanding - we order more???

What crap is this???? Safran them selves agreed for cooperation in Kaveri as an offset Clause for 36 Rafale deal. From where the question of purchasing further aircraft has arised??

@Bhoot Pishach Even I am wary of all your concerns, All your points are valid.......... but let's hope for the best.
If this is genuine concerns then all the work apart from M88 core must happen in India, with complete transparency.

Why I am hopeful is Dassault & France needs Indian orders to remain relevant and free from US influence and they are looking to undercut US fighter orders to India. As it is with Fighters becoming expensive only a few nations can afford so there won't be any orders if India doesn't buy and for dassault to remain relevant as fighter producer and to keep Rafales Upgraded to newer versions they need this order and for future co-operation for Rafale NG which can be merged with AMCA along with Germany. So there are many variables which can make this happen.............
All this is immaterial from Indian perspective. They are extracting price of 5gen for 4gen hardware. Indian money is not there to assure survival for defence industry of a third country, which do not even want to part with some critical tech.

WRT to know-why, Know-how, we should be OK if Kaveri is produced in India with Safran providing parts from its Goa plant without any restriction or sanctions.... It should not matter whether these parts are manufactured by Bharat Forge Pune or Snecma Goa.......... as long as it is made in INDIA.
What Safran does in Goa or wherever is not India's concern.

Do you even realise, we will always be dependent on French for future changes in Kaveri????

We need M88 core that's it. All the Know-How and Know-Why shall remain with India.

So that whenever Indian Technology evolve we must be able to replace M88 core with ours.

And be able to upgrade Kaveri Engine as an when required.

What you are pursuing is Safran Propaganda.

Let things come to their own conclusion, Weather India be able to manufacture its own engine or this is going to be another SCREWDRIVERGIRI.
 
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pankaj nema

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They are demanding - we order more???

What crap is this???? Safran them selves agreed for cooperation in Kaveri as an offset Clause for 36 Rafale deal. From where the question of purchasing further aircraft has arised??



If this is genuine concerns then all the work apart from M88 core must happen in India, with complete transparency.



All this is immaterial from Indian perspective. They are extracting price of 5gen for 4gen hardware. Indian money is not there to assure survival for defence industry of a third country, which do not even want to part with some critical tech.



What Safran does in Goa or wherever is not India's concern.

Do you even realise, we will always be dependent on French for future changes in Kaveri????

We need M88 core that's it. All the Know-How and Know-Why shall remain with India.

So that whenever Indian Technology evolve we must be able to replace M88 core with ours.

And be able to upgrade Kaveri Engine as an when required.

What you are pursuing is Safran Propaganda.

Let things come to their own conclusion, Weather India be able to manufacture its own engine or this is going to be another SCREWDRIVERGIRI.
Without Safran's Help We can Never Get a Usable Engine

The Offsets of Rafale are Being Used in Two Key
areas : AESA RBE 2 And Kaveri ;
on our own we would struggle for 20 more years
 

lcafanboy

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What you are pursuing is Safran Propaganda.
I am not Safran representative nor I support it but I am realistic. Even if we continue doing R&D we won't be able to do catch up in engine technology. Kaveri at present is at 1970's tech level WRT to US & European standards, and after 5 yrs even if we upgrade it to GE404 level we will reach at 1980's level or in 10 years at GE414 level we will reach at late 1990's level in 2027 when US will be having ADVENT engine for F-35, Russia will move on to Item30, Snecma to M-88 4E, EJ200 to EJ230 all 5th gen engines with ADVENT being the most Advanced variable cycle engine...........

So even if we move to GE414 level in 2027 we won't be able to use on AMCA as it will be same like Chinese J-20 flying with 1990's AL-31 engine technology and they are claiming it is 5th gen fighter...............
 

Kay

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I am not Safran representative nor I support it but I am realistic. Even if we continue doing R&D we won't be able to do catch up in engine technology. Kaveri at present is at 1970's tech level WRT to US & European standards, and after 5 yrs even if we upgrade it to GE404 level we will reach at 1980's level or in 10 years at GE414 level we will reach at late 1990's level in 2027 when US will be having ADVENT engine for F-35, Russia will move on to Item30, Snecma to M-88 4E, EJ200 to EJ230 all 5th gen engines with ADVENT being the most Advanced variable cycle engine...........

So even if we move to GE414 level in 2027 we won't be able to use on AMCA as it will be same like Chinese J-20 flying with 1990's AL-31 engine technology and they are claiming it is 5th gen fighter...............
Effect of RnD is not always linear and predicatable. We can have derivative turboprop and turbifan engines and there is the possibility of catching up and even exceling in some areas. We need not follow the same path.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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I am not Safran representative nor I support it but I am realistic. Even if we continue doing R&D we won't be able to do catch up in engine technology. Kaveri at present is at 1970's tech level WRT to US & European standards, and after 5 yrs even if we upgrade it to GE404 level we will reach at 1980's level or in 10 years at GE414 level we will reach at late 1990's level in 2027 when US will be having ADVENT engine for F-35, Russia will move on to Item30, Snecma to M-88 4E, EJ200 to EJ230 all 5th gen engines with ADVENT being the most Advanced variable cycle engine...........
So even if we move to GE414 level in 2027 we won't be able to use on AMCA as it will be same like Chinese J-20 flying with 1990's AL-31 engine technology and they are claiming it is 5th gen fighter...............
Do you realistically think after Safranised Kavari, India will be able to upgrade Kavari without any dependence on Safran????

Or India will become permanently dependent on Safran for manufacturing and Future Upgrade of Kaveri Engine, by sending Kaveri engine to France for fine tuning and mating with M88 Core, without any technical Know-How ever been disclosed, and what changes they have done to the engine???

Kindly note I am not demanding technology of M88 core, but the changes in flow dynamics of Engine and fine tuning must be disclosed to India.

If it is not disclosed, then it is better to continue with imported engine rather then doing screwdrivergiri for our own produced engine. Which we cannot even upgrade and become totally dependent on somebody else.

It is far better to have engine tech with level of GE414 in 2027. Rather then keeping yourself dependent on some foreign OEM in 2027. By then we would have completed the learning curve which is mandatory to master the technology of Jet Engines, and will become competitive, only just behind 5-10 years from rest of the world.

We had always imported Jet Engines and we will be importing the Engine but in now changed format which will Safranised Kaveri. Which we will not have any ability to upgrade.

We will be always looking and requesting Safran for future upgrade.

With your approach India will never be able to develop Jet Engine be it 2027 or be it 2050. It will always be dependent on Foreign OEMs.

Atleast Chinese are trying and investing heavily in R&D of Jet Engines which some day will bear fruits, they understand that they cannot cut short the cycle of learning curve of cutting edge technology of Jet Engine. They will definitely catchup with the rest of the world in next 10-15 years by 2030.

But till now India has invested PEANUTS in R&D of Jet Engines. And all we are dolling Billions, to keep foreign OEMs alive and protect them from shutting Shop.

Think atleast once in which direction we are going.
 

lcafanboy

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Do you realistically think after Safranised Kavari, India will be able to upgrade Kavari without any dependence on Safran????

Or India will become permanently dependent on Safran for manufacturing and Future Upgrade of Kaveri Engine, by sending Kaveri engine to France for fine tuning and mating with M88 Core, without any technical Know-How ever been disclosed, and what changes they have done to the engine???

Kindly note I am not demanding technology of M88 core, but the changes in flow dynamics of Engine and fine tuning must be disclosed to India.

If it is not disclosed, then it is better to continue with imported engine rather then doing screwdrivergiri for our own produced engine. Which we cannot even upgrade and become totally dependent on somebody else.

It is far better to have engine tech with level of GE414 in 2027. Rather then keeping yourself dependent on some foreign OEM in 2027. By then we would have completed the learning curve which is mandatory to master the technology of Jet Engines, and will become competitive, only just behind 5-10 years from rest of the world.

We had always imported Jet Engines and we will be importing the Engine but in now changed format which will Safranised Kaveri. Which we will not have any ability to upgrade.

We will be always looking and requesting Safran for future upgrade.

With your approach India will never be able to develop Jet Engine be it 2027 or be it 2050. It will always be dependent on Foreign OEMs.

Atleast Chinese are trying and investing heavily in R&D of Jet Engines which some day will bear fruits, they understand that they cannot cut short the cycle of learning curve of cutting edge technology of Jet Engine. They will definitely catchup with the rest of the world in next 10-15 years by 2030.

But till now India has invested PEANUTS in R&D of Jet Engines. And all we are dolling Billions, to keep foreign OEMs alive and protect them from shutting Shop.

Think atleast once in which direction we are going.
Then according to you India should keep importing complete Fighter planes and pay through our nose is the best option. Great.

If the entire engine is made in India and Safran becomes one of the vendor which ensures steady supply and we manufacture our own Fighter planes is the best option, I suppose, which will be free from any sanction. If not please give better option than this. Now don't say we should spend more money on r&d and wait till Kaveri engine matures as we will be simply doing catch up. Look at China they have spent billions, tried everything copying, espionage and yet gone nowhere.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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Then according to you India should keep importing complete Fighter planes and pay through our nose is the best option. Great.
If the entire engine is made in India and Safran becomes one of the vendor which ensures steady supply and we manufacture our own Fighter planes is the best option, I suppose, which will be free from any sanction. If not please give better option than this. Now don't say we should spend more money on r&d and wait till Kaveri engine matures as we will be simply doing catch up. Look at China they have spent billions, tried everything copying, espionage and yet gone nowhere.
Where did I opposed mating of M88 core with Kaveri???

But yes I am in dead opposition of sending Kaveri Engine to France for mating it with M88 Core over there.

The mating of M88 Core must happen in India, in full knowledge and in front of Indian Agencies.

All the Know-How and Know-Why must be well documented and be in possession of Indian Agencies.

All the ground testing must be completed and fine tuning of the engine must be done in India.

Only for validating of High Altitude Test can be conducted in France that too in presence of Indian Agencies, and all the data generated while testing must be the sole property of India.

This is all I want, because Kaveri is India's future and we cannot let it go the way of Screwdrivergiri.

Better dont talk about China their Military Industrial complex is much much better then ours.
 
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kstriya

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IDN TAKE: HF-24 Marut: Why The Prodigal Son of HAL Should Return



by Darpan Sanjay Agarwal

BACKGROUND

HAL HF-24 Marut was the first indigenous subsonic twin engine aircraft designed (by German designer Kurt Tank) and developed in India. It was fighter-bomber aircraft in the 1960s. It was the first Asian jet to go into production outside of USSR. A total 147 of the MARUT were produced which saw active role during 1971 war. Later, in the 1980s due to sanctions imposed because after the Pokhran atomic tests the aircraft faced several shortages of spare parts and was finally retired. The jet was phased out in 1990s.
PROBLEMS

IAF is in dire need of upgrade. It is struggling in almost every field a air force should excel for a country becoming a super power.

  • It does not have a required number of squadron (down to 33) to keep with the threat emerging from east and west.
  • Fifth generation aircraft is nowhere to be seen. (AMCA and FGFA both are stalled)
  • It does not long range bombers.(negotiating for 4 Tuplov from Russia)
  • Its scavenging to keep the old fleet running (purchasing 36 retired jaguars to keep its fleet operational)
  • It does not enough air refueling tankers
  • It does not have required AEW&Cs strength
REASONING

The reasons why the prodigal son of HAL needs to return is discussed below point by point.

1. ROLE

Marut was designed as interceptor aircraft but was also capable of carrying substantial weight (4000lbs) of bombs on its metal airframe. Marut had an excellent safety record as compared to the other jets in IAF possession at that time.
EDITOR'S NOTE: Though the proposal by the author may sound rather radical, it offers a certain degree of sensibility and feasibility in its view. It offers a tremendous opportunity for the government to rapidly and at drastically lower cost upgrade the depleted force levels of the Indian Air Force which is currently handicapped to fight a two-front war:

IAF is down to 33 squadrons and the number is going to go down in coming decade since Migs are getting phased out. IAF is losing edge in Asia.

Now, Marut can be brought back obviously with new airframe and new avionics. Marut fits perfectly in Ground support/ Bomber aircraft role for the IAF. As IAF does not have long range bombers, Marut can be easily put in role of a Medium range bomber. Even though Marut cannot cover whole of china, it will have the ability to cover almost all of Pakistan from the forward bases of IAF in Rajasthan and Punjab.

A newer airframe of composite material similar to the one used in Tejas will help the weight to reduce and will help to carry more payload. The advantage of having two engines instead of one will also help in increased range. It also increases the chance of survival.
The aircraft can be dedicated to the infantry support and destruction of key enemy installations (forward bases, dams etc).

2. HELPING HAL-TEJAS REALISE ITS TRUE ROLE

Tejas was designed to replace Mig-21 as the interceptor for the IAF in the first place. The whole idea of portraying it as a multi role aircraft has doomed it. Putting bombs on the light combat aircraft has made it to lose it maneuverability.

IAF should realize it is the perfect and viable solution for the replacements for its interceptor requirement. Tejas also has good record of safety as not a single major crash has occurred in 16 years of testing (2001-present).

Bringing back Marut in the bomber/ground support will not only help IAF get back on its feet but will also take extra load off the Tejas back. It will not help IAF but will also help Tejas to survive and grow.

3. TRULY INDIGENOUS

As the first indigenous fighter of IAF, HAL and IAF both have the opportunity to make it truly indigenous. With the development of the Tejas platform our scientists have gained considerable knowledge and experience. They can quickly develop a superior airframe, incorporate better power plant, avionics and also install a smart weapons package.

AIRFRAME – Believe it or not but Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is pretty good at its job. The agency designs the aircraft airframe such as what should be the air intake size and how the aircrafts aerofoil structure and etc. ADA has also completed design of the AMCA, so I would like to say that designing a twin engine 4++ generation airframe won’t be a bigger task for ADA. In fact they can make it 4.5 g since gaining expertise after completion of AMCA.

POWER PLANT – Gas Turbine Research and Establishment (GTRE) has developed the Kaveri engine (81kn). In 2016 Snecma the engine supplier for the Rafale, reviewed the engine's characteristics and it claimed to the conclusion that the engine was already 70% ready and with just 18 months of further development the engine will be ready for operational use. Tejas missed out on indigenous engine and it too late to incorporate new engine as the airframe would require modifications. Marut is the best test bed for this opportunity. Indigenous engine would put India and IAF into a different league.

AVIONICS – Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) is responsible for making avionics for the IAF fleet. It can make Marut a truly next generation aircraft. India’s indigenous AESA UTTAM has already cleared ground tracking tests successfully. The DARIN-III upgrade meant for the Jaguar fleet can also be incorporated in Marut. Electronic warfare suite is also being developed in India. Even if not whole package, most of the requirement can be sourced from within the country.

WEAPONS PACKAGE – DRDO over the years have developed some pretty good indigenous weapons system. Since it a bomber aircraft, the weapons which Marut will carry should also be indigenous. As in time of emergency we can’t depend on other nations to provide us weapons. DRDO has successfully tested many types of bombs carrying different type of payload. The recent addition of successful SAAW (Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon) has made India proud. It has operational range of 100 kms which means it can target most of Pakistan without even entering its air space. It also gives advantage of striking key places in China. A Marut squadron placed in Andaman and Nicobar Islands will provide more firepower to the strategic command present there.

CONCLUSION

I understand that thinking of designing a 4.5++ generation aircraft is a step backward, while every other developed nation is on 5th and 6th generation fighter program. By any reasonable yardstick, we can assume that this is the best possible solution for the IAF right now. IAF has still not decided which single engine aircraft it should purchase (F-16 V/s Gripen).

I totally support AMCA but it is far from complete. It will take years before it can go into mass production. Marut can be an intermediate option for HAL to work on Twin Engine aircraft.

If we summaries all the aforementioned observations we can logically bring back the Marut which will help IAF in the following ways:

  • Increase the number of squadron and not just in any manner but in role defined goal driven manner.
  • Help Tejas to grow and survive
  • Create a much better aerospace eco-system
  • Increased export opportunity as not everyone can afford a 5th gen aircraft. Both Tejas and Marut in their defined role will provide more opportunity
  • A true indigenous product.
Views expressed are of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of IDN. IDN does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same
 

kstriya

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IDN TAKE: HF-24 Marut: Why The Prodigal Son of HAL Should Return



by Darpan Sanjay Agarwal

BACKGROUND

HAL HF-24 Marut was the first indigenous subsonic twin engine aircraft designed (by German designer Kurt Tank) and developed in India. It was fighter-bomber aircraft in the 1960s. It was the first Asian jet to go into production outside of USSR. A total 147 of the MARUT were produced which saw active role during 1971 war. Later, in the 1980s due to sanctions imposed because after the Pokhran atomic tests the aircraft faced several shortages of spare parts and was finally retired. The jet was phased out in 1990s.
PROBLEMS

IAF is in dire need of upgrade. It is struggling in almost every field a air force should excel for a country becoming a super power.

  • It does not have a required number of squadron (down to 33) to keep with the threat emerging from east and west.
  • Fifth generation aircraft is nowhere to be seen. (AMCA and FGFA both are stalled)
  • It does not long range bombers.(negotiating for 4 Tuplov from Russia)
  • Its scavenging to keep the old fleet running (purchasing 36 retired jaguars to keep its fleet operational)
  • It does not enough air refueling tankers
  • It does not have required AEW&Cs strength
REASONING

The reasons why the prodigal son of HAL needs to return is discussed below point by point.

1. ROLE

Marut was designed as interceptor aircraft but was also capable of carrying substantial weight (4000lbs) of bombs on its metal airframe. Marut had an excellent safety record as compared to the other jets in IAF possession at that time.
EDITOR'S NOTE: Though the proposal by the author may sound rather radical, it offers a certain degree of sensibility and feasibility in its view. It offers a tremendous opportunity for the government to rapidly and at drastically lower cost upgrade the depleted force levels of the Indian Air Force which is currently handicapped to fight a two-front war:

IAF is down to 33 squadrons and the number is going to go down in coming decade since Migs are getting phased out. IAF is losing edge in Asia.

Now, Marut can be brought back obviously with new airframe and new avionics. Marut fits perfectly in Ground support/ Bomber aircraft role for the IAF. As IAF does not have long range bombers, Marut can be easily put in role of a Medium range bomber. Even though Marut cannot cover whole of china, it will have the ability to cover almost all of Pakistan from the forward bases of IAF in Rajasthan and Punjab.

A newer airframe of composite material similar to the one used in Tejas will help the weight to reduce and will help to carry more payload. The advantage of having two engines instead of one will also help in increased range. It also increases the chance of survival.
The aircraft can be dedicated to the infantry support and destruction of key enemy installations (forward bases, dams etc).

2. HELPING HAL-TEJAS REALISE ITS TRUE ROLE

Tejas was designed to replace Mig-21 as the interceptor for the IAF in the first place. The whole idea of portraying it as a multi role aircraft has doomed it. Putting bombs on the light combat aircraft has made it to lose it maneuverability.

IAF should realize it is the perfect and viable solution for the replacements for its interceptor requirement. Tejas also has good record of safety as not a single major crash has occurred in 16 years of testing (2001-present).

Bringing back Marut in the bomber/ground support will not only help IAF get back on its feet but will also take extra load off the Tejas back. It will not help IAF but will also help Tejas to survive and grow.

3. TRULY INDIGENOUS

As the first indigenous fighter of IAF, HAL and IAF both have the opportunity to make it truly indigenous. With the development of the Tejas platform our scientists have gained considerable knowledge and experience. They can quickly develop a superior airframe, incorporate better power plant, avionics and also install a smart weapons package.

AIRFRAME – Believe it or not but Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is pretty good at its job. The agency designs the aircraft airframe such as what should be the air intake size and how the aircrafts aerofoil structure and etc. ADA has also completed design of the AMCA, so I would like to say that designing a twin engine 4++ generation airframe won’t be a bigger task for ADA. In fact they can make it 4.5 g since gaining expertise after completion of AMCA.

POWER PLANT – Gas Turbine Research and Establishment (GTRE) has developed the Kaveri engine (81kn). In 2016 Snecma the engine supplier for the Rafale, reviewed the engine's characteristics and it claimed to the conclusion that the engine was already 70% ready and with just 18 months of further development the engine will be ready for operational use. Tejas missed out on indigenous engine and it too late to incorporate new engine as the airframe would require modifications. Marut is the best test bed for this opportunity. Indigenous engine would put India and IAF into a different league.

AVIONICS – Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) is responsible for making avionics for the IAF fleet. It can make Marut a truly next generation aircraft. India’s indigenous AESA UTTAM has already cleared ground tracking tests successfully. The DARIN-III upgrade meant for the Jaguar fleet can also be incorporated in Marut. Electronic warfare suite is also being developed in India. Even if not whole package, most of the requirement can be sourced from within the country.

WEAPONS PACKAGE – DRDO over the years have developed some pretty good indigenous weapons system. Since it a bomber aircraft, the weapons which Marut will carry should also be indigenous. As in time of emergency we can’t depend on other nations to provide us weapons. DRDO has successfully tested many types of bombs carrying different type of payload. The recent addition of successful SAAW (Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon) has made India proud. It has operational range of 100 kms which means it can target most of Pakistan without even entering its air space. It also gives advantage of striking key places in China. A Marut squadron placed in Andaman and Nicobar Islands will provide more firepower to the strategic command present there.

CONCLUSION

I understand that thinking of designing a 4.5++ generation aircraft is a step backward, while every other developed nation is on 5th and 6th generation fighter program. By any reasonable yardstick, we can assume that this is the best possible solution for the IAF right now. IAF has still not decided which single engine aircraft it should purchase (F-16 V/s Gripen).

I totally support AMCA but it is far from complete. It will take years before it can go into mass production. Marut can be an intermediate option for HAL to work on Twin Engine aircraft.

If we summaries all the aforementioned observations we can logically bring back the Marut which will help IAF in the following ways:

  • Increase the number of squadron and not just in any manner but in role defined goal driven manner.
  • Help Tejas to grow and survive
  • Create a much better aerospace eco-system
  • Increased export opportunity as not everyone can afford a 5th gen aircraft. Both Tejas and Marut in their defined role will provide more opportunity
  • A true indigenous product.
Views expressed are of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of IDN. IDN does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same
Is this option technologically possible?????
 

WolfPack86

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It is possible to India to build twin engine aircraft. Long time ago there was a news about Medium Combat Aircraft to be build along with Tejas. But suddenly it was change into Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.
 

kstriya

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It is possible to India to build twin engine aircraft. Long time ago there was a news about Medium Combat Aircraft to be build along with Tejas. But suddenly it was change into Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.
So does the Marut airframe suit the current scenario, a 60’s design F16 if relevant today then HAL Marut can be made a 4.5 gen aircraft as mentioned in the article with composite’s & all possible indigenous avionics??????? Hope if existing Kaveri Engine can be used to power a twin engine composite Marut....
 

WolfPack86

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DRDO and HAL could have build Medium Combat Aircraft along with Tejas. So that there is no need to procure any imported aircraft. Unforunately we have not done that.
 
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