ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

Uttam aesa was for Mk2 from the day one.. For mk1a AESA was planned to be outsourced by HAL not by ADA or drdo

The original plan for Tejas MK-1A was EL-2052. But after may be some disagreement between HAL and ELTA AESA MMR is now a game in the open field.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think he quoted the Tejas Admin and not his words, The question is directed towards him ..

Regarding the topic, MK1A is meant to run the factory and something between MK1 and MK2, If MK1A faces delay it will eventually delay MK2 ..

Also, I will also add that such offers comes only when Indigenous AESA is progressing well..

Uttam aesa was for Mk2 from the day one.. For mk1a AESA was planned to be outsourced by HAL not by ADA or drdo

How can a radar be selected without the proper air borne testing?

The original plan for Tejas MK-1A was EL-2052. But after may be some disagreement between HAL and ELTA AESA MMR is now a game in the open field.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Uttam aesa was for Mk2 from the day one.. For mk1a AESA was planned to be outsourced by HAL not by ADA or drdo

I do agree with you. By going with 2014/15 reports, If I remember correctly then the Uttam ground testing was expected to complete in 2019 and go into LCA Mk2 by 2022.

But it was a pleasant surprise that we completed the ground testing in mid 2017. That's when unconfirmed news strated to spread that we can have Uttam in LCA Mk1A itself. If I am not wrong that is also the time period when we started to have issues with IAI on Elta 2052 mating with LCA Mk1A.

If Uttam gets into flight by now and finishes the testing and integration without any glitches then we may have Uttam in LCA MK1A.

News of Uttam integration into LCAMK1A could also be a pressure tactics on IAI. We will never know untill the time is ripe

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding the recent development ..

HAL issued on 14 December a request for quotation (RFQ) for AESA radars to Israel Aerospace Industries/Elta (Israel), Raytheon (United States), Rosoboronexport (Russia), Saab (Sweden), and Thales (France), envisaging the purchase of 24 fully assembled systems and another eight in kit form for local assembly.

The remaining 48 radars, the RFQ stated, would be licence-built by HAL under a technology transfer.

http://www.janes.com/article/66425/...r-aesa-radar-and-ew-suites-to-equip-tejas-lca

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. Each TR module is 10 W working at 1 GHz (X-band). Four TR module per "package"

2. When they went for volume production, components (power amplifier) were denied. The speaker calls it blessing in disguise. They had foreseen this and had started co-development with Astra microwave ahead of time. Last year, they qualified the indigenous QTRMs. BEL and Astra have already developed more than 4,000 units. The QTRMs are being used for 3 other strategic ground array systems.

3. Planks are packaged using vacuum brazing. They started with debrazing but could not qualify it inspite of many iterations. The vacuum brazed package works very well and has been indigenized.

4. Exciter/Reciever module: indigenous and qualified

5. Array power supply unit: indigenous and qualified

6. Cooling unit: indigenous and qualified

7. Complete array has been recently qualified. Safety of flight qualified. Ready for installation on the aircraft.

8. +-60 degree

9. Range: 115 km (subjective). Can be increased or decreased based on cooling, space and mission requirements.

10. Roof top testing done for qualification. Criticality lies in the software. Mission objectives need to be defined properly.

Posting it for the purpose of refreshing the matter.

 

[Steven Rogers]

1. Each TR module is 10 W working at 1 GHz (X-band). Four TR module per "package"

2. When they went for volume production, components (power amplifier) were denied. The speaker calls it blessing in disguise. They had foreseen this and had started co-development with Astra microwave ahead of time. Last year, they qualified the indigenous QTRMs. BEL and Astra have already developed more than 4,000 units. The QTRMs are being used for 3 other strategic ground array systems.

3. Planks are packaged using vacuum brazing. They started with debrazing but could not qualify it inspite of many iterations. The vacuum brazed package works very well and has been indigenized.

4. Exciter/Reciever module: indigenous and qualified

5. Array power supply unit: indigenous and qualified

6. Cooling unit: indigenous and qualified

7. Complete array has been recently qualified. Safety of flight qualified. Ready for installation on the aircraft.

8. +-60 degree

9. Range: 115 km (subjective). Can be increased or decreased based on cooling, space and mission requirements.

10. Roof top testing done for qualification. Criticality lies in the software. Mission objectives need to be defined properly.

And sir this is GaN amplifier

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Why no integrated electro optical targeting system (IRST/OLS) ? Is it because of Tejas' desired primary role of an interceptor ?

 

[Armand2REP]

The program that was conceptualised in 1983, got limited sanction in 1992 (for TD phase only) and full sanction in 2003 was not exactly what Tejas is in 2017. Today Tejas is a much more advanced platform than just a point interceptor with limited ground attack capability- a replacement for Mig-21- it was originally intended to be.

Regardless, the world over it normal for figher jets to enter into service with limited capability initially and acquire full capability over time. Similar could be the case for Tejas MK-1A. UTTAM being introduced with limited capability initially on Tejas MK-1A.

Like I posted before. Uttam MMR is being integrated with LCA LSP-2 and in a couple of years, it will be fully proven AESA. That is the time HAL is most likely to take to complete development of Tejas MK-1A and start production. Taking minus plus into calculation worst Uttam could delay Tejas MK-1A is by a year.

Furthermore, it took us 5 years just to discover that the Rafale deal in its M-MRCA form cannot be concluded with french. God knows, if we don't take Government to Government approach(not likely) for proposed RBE-2 -Tejas, how long it will take just to conclude the deal on top of the time RBE-2T would take to be proven abroad Tejas?

Do mind as we speak Uttam is being or has already been integrated with LSP-2 for flight testing. Report of the beginning of the integration of Uttam came 8 months ago.

If the Uttam can meet the minimum qualifications of the tender let them submit their bid. Nothing is going to be delayed, the squadron strength is too far depleted to keep playing games.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Why no integrated electro optical targeting system (IRST/OLS) ? Is it because of Tejas' desired primary role of an interceptor ?

Yes, also Tejas will have integrated MAWS, so no need for such system on an interceptor...

 

[Rahul Singh]

If the Uttam can meet the minimum qualifications of the tender let them submit their bid. Nothing is going to be delayed, the squadron strength is too far depleted to keep playing games.

Uttam is not required to go through the formal way of bidding. It just has to be proved in air. And for that HAL along with LRDE is already integrating it on LCA LSP-2. God willing by 2019 we will have a fully developed AESA MMR.

As far as delays are concerned. Well, today it is well-established fact that in our country it takes less time developing a new system than purchasing one through competitive bidding. Government to Government deals are exceptions but rare.

 

[lcafanboy]

Is Thales offer for RBE2 based AESA radar for Tejas-Mk1A a threat to Elta’s ELM-2052 chances in India? Published October 17, 2017 SOURCE: THOMAS D’SOUZA / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Israeli company, Elta after winning contract, to supply 61 Elta’s ELM-2052 AESA radar to be equipped on DARIN-3 upgraded Jaguar fleet of Indian Air Force was largely seen as in the driver seat before India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) invited overseas bids for 80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and electronic warfare (EW) suites to be equipped on soon to be developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk 1A variant. Request for quotation (RFQ) for 80 AESA radars issued last December had asked for fast delivery scheduled since the project is expected to go alive by 2019 followed by production by 2021. Israel Aerospace Industries/Elta (Israel), Raytheon (United States), Rosoboronexport (Russia), Saab (Sweden), and Thales (France) were some of the companies which received RFQ but tight delivery schedule meant not all agreed to participate. ELM-2052 AESA radar could have been an easy pick for HAL and IAF which have tested and successfully integrated them into Jaguar Strike aircrafts but some media reports hint that IAF was rather impressed by Thales proposed scaled down version of RBE2 AESA radar which is equipped on Dassault Rafale which India will start getting from 2019 on wards. Recent Press Release issued by Thales confirms that RBE2 derived Aesa radar was successfully developed and tested, all in a span of four months and test conducted in the month of July-August on a Test-bed aircraft meet specific requirements set by HAL in their RFQ for the Tejas Mk1A fighter jet. Unconfirmed reports hint that IAF wanted to equip Tejas Mk-1A, which will be India’s Point Air Defence Interceptor aircraft to be equipped with AESA radar which can dominate in air-superiority missions thus Elta’s ELM-2052 was sidelined for some reason even though it was already equipped with Jaguar ground attack aircraft fleet. RBE2 derived AESA radar for Tejas Mk-1A might find support from Indian Air Force since it will offer increased detection and track capabilities when compared to Elta’s ELM-2052. Raven ES-05 AESA Radar which has been offered to India with Gripen E to meet India’s Single-engined fighter requirement also has been offered to India to be equipped with Tejas Mk-1A. There is no confirmation if Raytheon has responded to HAL’s RFQ but at least on the paper, RBE2 derived AESA radar and Raven ES-05 AESA Radar, which is on offer are far superior in performance when compared to Elta’s ELM-2052 performance. Elta, a few years back had offered to co-develop with HAL, a new enhanced AESA radar based on ELM-2052 which was rejected. India’s locally developed UTTAM Aesa Radar is currently been prepared for integration and testing trials from LCA-Tejas and may see service with Tejas MK-2 when it is ready for production.

http://idrw.org/is-thales-offer-for...-eltas-elm-2052-chances-in-india/#more-151064 .

 

[Steven Rogers]

Is Thales offer for RBE2 based AESA radar for Tejas-Mk1A a threat to Elta’s ELM-2052 chances in India? Published October 17, 2017 SOURCE: THOMAS D’SOUZA / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Israeli company, Elta after winning contract, to supply 61 Elta’s ELM-2052 AESA radar to be equipped on DARIN-3 upgraded Jaguar fleet of Indian Air Force was largely seen as in the driver seat before India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) invited overseas bids for 80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and electronic warfare (EW) suites to be equipped on soon to be developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk 1A variant. Request for quotation (RFQ) for 80 AESA radars issued last December had asked for fast delivery scheduled since the project is expected to go alive by 2019 followed by production by 2021. Israel Aerospace Industries/Elta (Israel), Raytheon (United States), Rosoboronexport (Russia), Saab (Sweden), and Thales (France) were some of the companies which received RFQ but tight delivery schedule meant not all agreed to participate. ELM-2052 AESA radar could have been an easy pick for HAL and IAF which have tested and successfully integrated them into Jaguar Strike aircrafts but some media reports hint that IAF was rather impressed by Thales proposed scaled down version of RBE2 AESA radar which is equipped on Dassault Rafale which India will start getting from 2019 on wards. Recent Press Release issued by Thales confirms that RBE2 derived Aesa radar was successfully developed and tested, all in a span of four months and test conducted in the month of July-August on a Test-bed aircraft meet specific requirements set by HAL in their RFQ for the Tejas Mk1A fighter jet. Unconfirmed reports hint that IAF wanted to equip Tejas Mk-1A, which will be India’s Point Air Defence Interceptor aircraft to be equipped with AESA radar which can dominate in air-superiority missions thus Elta’s ELM-2052 was sidelined for some reason even though it was already equipped with Jaguar ground attack aircraft fleet. RBE2 derived AESA radar for Tejas Mk-1A might find support from Indian Air Force since it will offer increased detection and track capabilities when compared to Elta’s ELM-2052. Raven ES-05 AESA Radar which has been offered to India with Gripen E to meet India’s Single-engined fighter requirement also has been offered to India to be equipped with Tejas Mk-1A. There is no confirmation if Raytheon has responded to HAL’s RFQ but at least on the paper, RBE2 derived AESA radar and Raven ES-05 AESA Radar, which is on offer are far superior in performance when compared to Elta’s ELM-2052 performance. Elta, a few years back had offered to co-develop with HAL, a new enhanced AESA radar based on ELM-2052 which was rejected. India’s locally developed UTTAM Aesa Radar is currently been prepared for integration and testing trials from LCA-Tejas and may see service with Tejas MK-2 when it is ready for production.

http://idrw.org/is-thales-offer-for...-eltas-elm-2052-chances-in-india/#more-151064 .

Since these guys are offering Their aesa that means Uttam is progressing really well and will meet the requirements soon.

 

[tejas warrior]

According to ADA, Python-5 CCM was not fired from Tejas test vehicles because of vibration issues at Mach 0.9. #ADAAnnual.

 

[FactsPlease]

I think he quoted the Tejas Admin and not his words, The question is directed towards him ..
Regarding the topic, MK1A is meant to run the factory and something between MK1 and MK2, If MK1A faces delay it will eventually delay MK2 ..
Also, I will also add that such offers comes only when indigenous AESA is progressing well..

Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!

Applauding not just for indigenous effort but also for taking on the dxxned, greedy west MIC attitude...

 

[cannonfodder]

I prefer any AESA solution as long as it does not stall Tejas production. Uttam will be completed just matter of time.

First option: I think it is best if Uttam is completed for Mk1A but my guess is it will need 1-2 years to complete testing and weapons integration+trials. Best option would be having Uttam with descent working SW that can be upgraded later.
Second option: foreign AESA "Elta or thales" radar for first few MK1A's .
Last option: MMR radar is also good enough if IAF is ok with it.

 

[Armand2REP]

Uttam is not required to go through the formal way of bidding. It just has to be proved in air. And for that HAL along with LRDE is already integrating it on LCA LSP-2. God willing by 2019 we will have a fully developed AESA MMR.

As far as delays are concerned. Well, today it is well-established fact that in our country it takes less time developing a new system than purchasing one through competitive bidding. Government to Government deals are exceptions but rare.

For the sake of transparency it would be entered into the bidding. As long as it met the qualitative requirements it would win automatically by being the lowest bidder.

The problem for Uttam is that it is 40kg overweight for this tender which is why it was slated for the Mk2. Thales has miniaturized the RBE2 especially for Mk1a. With the offsets of Rafale and this tender, Thales will be forced to give so much over to meet the offset obligation it will be one of the most comprehensive JVs in the history of Thales and India.

 

[abingdonboy]

I do agree with you. By going with 2014/15 reports, If I remember correctly then the Uttam ground testing was expected to complete in 2019 and go into LCA Mk2 by 2022.

But it was a pleasant surprise that we completed the ground testing in mid 2017. That's when unconfirmed news strated to spread that we can have Uttam in LCA Mk1A itself. If I am not wrong that is also the time period when we started to have issues with IAI on Elta 2052 mating with LCA Mk1A.

If Uttam gets into flight by now and finishes the testing and integration without any glitches then we may have Uttam in LCA MK1A.

News of Uttam integration into LCAMK1A could also be a pressure tactics on IAI. We will never know untill the time is ripe

I think he quoted the Tejas Admin and not his words, The question is directed towards him ..

Regarding the topic, MK1A is meant to run the factory and something between MK1 and MK2, If MK1A faces delay it will eventually delay MK2 ..

Also, I will also add that such offers comes only when Indigenous AESA is progressing well..

I hope everyone realises that the MK.2 WILL be killed off for the sake of this pointless foreign single engine fighter procurement that Modi is pushing fro reasons unknown.

This will also come at the cost of the Uttam and Kaveri projects.


Look at the facts, ACM said last week that the SE fighter RFI will be released soon given the typical RFI--->RFP--->Contract signature----> Delivery timeline of 7-8 years for Indian deals this is around 2024/5 for the first F-16s to enter service in India ie exactly when the Mk.2 is meant to enter production/service for the IAF. Now the Mk.2 is going to be able to do >80% (plus) of what the F16/Gripen can do at a fraction of the cost so tell me how it would be tolerated by the foreign OEMs? No, there is no doubt about it- the Mk.2 project is being killed off by Modi, the Mk.1A may just be an attempt to pacify any possible allegations of treason.

India will pay >$10b for 90 outdated F-16s to fund American's MIC whilst sacrificing its own, that is the sad reality.

 

[Rahul Singh]

For the sake of transparency it would be entered into the bidding. As long as it met the qualitative requirements it would win automatically by being the lowest bidder.

The problem for Uttam is that it is 40kg overweight for this tender which is why it was slated for the Mk2.

Since it is an indigenous product it does not needs competitive bidding or even competitive trails for selection for transparency. It even does not have to beat EL-2052 or RBE-2T etc in every parameter. It just need to meet stipulated requirements more or less. Because it is an indigenous product it enjoys these favours.

Uttam is not over weight by 40 kgs as per airframe. Just that it weights 40 kgs over hybrid MMR that Tejas presently flies with.

In any case presently Tejas carries dead weights in nose to offset for weight imbalance somewhere else. Once Uttam gets aboard these dead weights will be removed. So this 40kgs extra is not much of any concern.

Thales has miniaturized the RBE2 especially for Mk1a. With the offsets of Rafale and this tender, Thales will be forced to give so much over to meet the offset obligation it will be one of the most comprehensive JVs in the history of Thales and India

We have a very bad taste dealing with French. Many times negotiations took more time than it usually takes to develop a concerned product. That is all after being ready to pay through nose.

Regardless, in this case Uttam is already getting integrated with LSP-2. While global tender is still moving a snail's pace. No technical evaluations yet let alone commercial bidding followed by negotiations and signing of contract. And we don't know what will happen when at technical negotiations HAL will ask for what we call 100 % ToT?

In my opinion if this open tender is not scrapped followed by out right purchase of an AESA in one to one deal then it's Uttam all the way.

 

[WolfPack86]

We need at aleast 300 Tejas MK 1A and 300 Tejas mark 2. Order evenly split between HAL and Tata. Tata already building helicopter parts and C 130j Hercules aircrafts parts. Since they have some aviation experience.

 

[proud_indian]

We need at aleast 300 Tejas MK 1A and 300 Tejas mark 2. Order evenly split between HAL and Tata. Tata already building helicopter parts and C 130j Hercules aircrafts parts. Since they have some aviation experience.

If I understand correctly, you are saying we need 35 squadrons of LCA.