ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[tejas warrior]

There is no comparison between Tejas and Rafael.

Tejas - Indigenous & our own.

Rafael & All Others - Imported. (India will lose lots of $.. foreign companies will gain.. and that's why so much is being offered and political pressure are being made)

Questions: If Rafael is better than say F18, will USA buy it ?? Why ??

We don't need Rafaels.. first we need 5L booletproof jackets.

 

[akk]

No one is saying the SQN's entire strength will be 4 ac, this is clearly nonsense. The SQN will be offically "stood up" with just 4 ac and as more LCA are churned out they will join them. Nothing has changed so far as how the IAF raises SQNs and the numbers contained within, why are we loosing our common sense on this matter?

the reason I have raised this is......Parriker will initiate 5 squadrons of 4 planes each......and claim that 5 squadrons are added. It doesn't clearly mean that 5 squadrons are added. Clearly hal cannot make more than 20 planes in foreseeable future for lack of engines and all this squadron talk is nonsense. This is what I have emphasised. I would anticipate 2-3 year gap for engine delivery after an order. Technicely, iaf has not even ordered 100 more planes (still in process), forget about hal ordering additional engines. Happy to be proven wrong if anybody can quote a reliable piece of news that hal has ordered new engines.

 

[Zebra]

@ SREEKAR.

Sorry sir.

My bad. This part was not for your post -----> ( ^^ And No one can beat US companies in that. )

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Mods kindly can you remove it from my post please #11515

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Their is nothing wrong what DM said and he won`t be saying without learning official IAF views on it ..

Tejas have already proven abilities that Rafale or any-other can do for specific need that IAF need ..

Much of capabilities are already discussed here, Read the following thread before getting into conclusion ..

Their is something call 'secrecy', 'Confidential', Unlike former Government where CT ops can be viewed in detail on television, What happens inside is always molded and edited latter for public viewing ..

Our media has habit of twisting words, And perhaps that what is making all the confusion on first place ..

================

The news is simple stuipd, More Tejas and additional assembly line ..

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/india-to-select-fighter-jet-under-make.html

India To Select Fighter Jet Under 'Make in India' By March
Saturday, May 21, 2016 by Indiandefense News

.............................................. Strongly backing the quality of Tejas, Parrikar said it has the same qualities as Rafale.

Tejas is in light weight category and its range is also half compared to Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and fire power it is no less to Rafale, he said.

The minister said India will select a good fighter by the end of this financial year to be made domestically

"It is not yet decided which aircraft it would be. It may be F-18, Rafale, Eurofighter or Grippen. The decision in this regard will be taken in this financial year," he said.

I frankly have no idea under which context did Parrikar try to compare the two planes, which are in entirely different categories and have different roles to fulfill. Oh, and by the way Rafale is way ahead of Tejas in all the departments he mentioned.

Speaking of avionics (Aviation Electronics)...the slotted-array 2032 is literally no match for the AESA. There is no IRST, no TV and Tejas does not even have a simple MAWS, let alone more advanced features like all-round situational awareness, use of GaN, QWIP etc.

It's Active sensors are mediocre in comparison to present-version Rafale, while Passive awareness is a dud (non-existent).

Firepower? Well, Tejas can carry about 1/3rd the payload of Rafale. There is still no provision for multi-rack ejectors atleast for A2G munitions. It can't supercruise either.

As I said, at the end of the day Parrikar is a politician and not an aviation expert/analyst. So yeah, a precise technical assessment of the aircraft is not something expected of him. So I'd suggest to members here to take the large, bold letters in the post I'm quoting with....disregard.

Parrikar is simply trying to save the asses of the incompetent fools running the government companies. As I said....LIP-SERVICE.

The only real comparison between the LCA and Rafale is that both fly. Why the DM felt the need to reference the LCA and Rafale in the same breath is beyond me- he is just setting himself and the nation up to be humiliated. Has he realy learnt nothing about how the media works by now? All those headlines that will be spun as a result "LCA as good as Rafale" will be mocked by the rest of the world and add a further degree of stupidity to the project that is just doesn't deserve.

The LCA was NEVER meant to be a rival to the Rafale and clearly is NOT so why compare them? They both serve very different roles within the IAF.

I frankly have no idea under which context did Parrikar try to compare the two planes, which are in entirely different categories and have different roles to fulfill. Oh, and by the way Rafale is way ahead of Tejas in all the departments he mentioned.

Speaking of avionics (Aviation Electronics)...the slotted-array 2032 is literally no match for the AESA. There is no IRST, no TV and Tejas does not even have a simple MAWS, let alone more advanced features like all-round situational awareness, use of GaN, QWIP etc.

It's Active sensors are mediocre in comparison to present-version Rafale, while Passive awareness is a dud (non-existent).

Firepower? Well, Tejas can carry about 1/3rd the payload of Rafale. There is still no provision for multi-rack ejectors atleast for A2G munitions. It can't supercruise either.

As I said, at the end of the day Parrikar is a politician and not an aviation expert/analyst. Parrikar is simply trying to save the asses of the incompetent fools running the government companies. As I said....LIP-SERVICE.

Atleast a new order for 404 engines would have shown their firm intent. Without more engines, we cannot have more than 20 new aircrafts

Parrikar is trying to play games to project himself as a "tough guy". The reality is that the Rafale is coming in >100 units for the IAF and MP has pretty much confirmed that above.

They only ever ordered 40 ge404 engines. 20 already used. Maximum aircraft they can make is 20. So completing order oc 20 mk1 and 2-3 left for trial of mk1a. Even if they make new orders now, if will be years before they are delivered. They are INDIA specific....not lying in their cupboards

 

[tejas warrior]

Yes, agree to Biswa sir.

Moreover, IAF always wanted more Mirage 2000. (anyone disagree ?)

It has been proven already, Tejas MK1 is at least as good as Mirage 2000.
So, Mk1A will beat Mirage hands down with ASEA (any doubt ?)

I will not talk about LCA MK2 for now.

Cost effectiveness: LCA winner by a big margin. Also what ever money being spent is mostly lives in India only.

Jobs: More jobs will be produced with LCA.

Rafael is a very good twin engine plane.. but very expensive. We wanted single engine fighter which is now LCA.

Time has changed since early 2000.. and now we have a option : TEJAS.

 

[Gessler]

Tejas - Indigenous & our own.

That, sir, is a delusion.

Even in case of Tejas, lots of components are foreign (including the most important & costly stuff like engine & radar) and even here a lot of $ goes out of the country. But you have to learn to live with this reality because India does not have an industry that's capable of producing everything we want right here - even China does not!

Only the US & Russia (the Cold War rivals) are capable of producing almost everything in-house...and even they prefer to outsource a lot of stuff now (especially US).

The IAF, however, needs to look at the bigger picture. Even if case of Western sanctions (which have happened multiple times before and may happen again under some circumstances);

• Su-30MKI, FGFA, MiGs will remain unaffected and continue to operate & serve

• Rafale, Mirage may or may not be affected (depends on France's individual decision)

• But Tejas will be affected for SURE. The engine is American and without the engine & the supply of spares and support for the engine, we cannot keep the plane operational for long.

In short, the most "domestic" aircraft on the block is actually the one that's most likely to be grounded as a result of foreign sanctions. So you should re-check that whole "inidgenous" and "our own" argument, because that is frankly delusional and only serves to cloud us to the facts and dangers involved.

Atleast the licensed-production of BARS radar and AL-31FP engine takes place inside India. But for Tejas (ELM-2032, F404 etc.) we directly import everything from abroad.

 

[kstriya]

Their is nothing wrong what DM said and he won`t be saying without learning official IAF views on it ..

Tejas have already proven abilities that Rafale or any-other can do for specific need that IAF need ..

Much of capabilities are already discussed here, Read the following thread before getting into conclusion ..

Their is something call 'secrecy', 'Confidential', Unlike former Government where CT ops can be viewed in detail on television, What happens inside is always molded and edited latter for public viewing ..

Our media has habit of twisting words, And perhaps that what is making all the confusion on first place ..

================

The news is simple stuipd, More Tejas and additional assembly line ..

IAF area of operation lies within the range of Tejas and for beyond we have SU 30 MKI which will be upgraded to Super Sukoi soon. For increase in range a CFT option for Tejas must be considered. I believe DM has hit the jackpot with LCA tejas and will get the best of the Rafale deal or no Rafale if too costly. I wish we complete the FGFA deal on lines of SU 30 MKI and even more TOT.

 

[kstriya]

That, sir, is a delusion.

Even in case of Tejas, lots of components are foreign (including the most important & costly stuff like engine & radar) and even here a lot of $ goes out of the country. But you have to learn to live with this reality because India does not have an industry that's capable of producing everything we want right here - even China does not!

Only the US & Russia (the Cold War rivals) are capable of producing almost everything in-house...and even they prefer to outsource a lot of stuff now (especially US).

The IAF, however, needs to look at the bigger picture. Even if case of Western sanctions (which have happened multiple times before and may happen again under some circumstances);

• Su-30MKI, FGFA, MiGs will remain unaffected and continue to operate & serve

• Rafale, Mirage may or may not be affected (depends on France's individual decision)

• But Tejas will be affected for SURE. The engine is American and without the engine & the supply of spares and support for the engine, we cannot keep the plane operational for long.

In short, the most "domestic" aircraft on the block is actually the one that's most likely to be grounded as a result of foreign sanctions. So you should re-check that whole "inidgenous" and "our own" argument, because that is frankly delusional and only serves to cloud us to the facts and dangers involved.

Atleast the licensed-production of BARS radar and AL-31FP engine takes place inside India. But for Tejas (ELM-2032, F404 etc.) we directly import everything from abroad.

We have the engine program going on, Kaveri will fly someday sooner or later on the LCA in its next variant probably K10 which will also power the AMCA. The indigenous AESA Uttam is almost there but has some weight issues that will be sorted out in some time and will be fitted in the next variant of Tejas MK2 or MK3. Most of the LRU's will be produced in house once production is ramped up and involvement of private players start.

 

[Gessler]

We have the engine program going on, Kaveri will fly someday sooner or later on the LCA in its next variant probably K10 which will also power the AMCA. The indigenous AESA Uttam is almost there but has some weight issues that will be sorted out in some time and will be fitted in the next variant of Tejas MK2 or MK3. Most of the LRU's will be produced in house once production is ramped up and involvement of private players start.

A lot of maybes and could be's. Doesn't change the facts that F404 is also contracted for Mk-1 and F414 for Mk-2. Mk-3 is a fanboy creation, there's no such thing in the plans for now - so assuming it could have X system on it is another delusion.

Kaveri is not flying on any Tejas as we know it, probably NEVER. It can be tested on MiG-29 (for flight-test purpose, not replacing the RD-33) and will find use in AURA and other projects. The Tejas train has long been missed.

While DRDO/LRDE will peddle their wares regardless of the required timelines...it remains a matter of fact that developing an AESA radar for fighters is not so simple. The ELM-2052 is all but certain to be the radar for Mk-1A and most early tranches of Mk-2.

As of the moment of writing, the statements I made in the previous post are correct. When you speak for the future, you must understand you are talking about a lot of variables and what could happen may not happen as well.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The logic of deep penetration in a heavily defended airspace in today's date is just imaginary scenario and only best serve for sale lobby for various firms, In reality such tasks are overtaken by unmanned system such as cruise missiles, Iraq learned it the hard way in both wars, The purpose of heavy fighter such as SU-30MKI is to keep track of skies rather go into enemy air-defence head-on ..

@Gessler, The purpose of Indigenous system is the design, Regarding material imported are mainly for prototypes as mass scale production is not viable for low number of examples, Tejas are not only meant for American engines, They can adapt to Russian and European and Indian of-course, This is what i know from official mouth while interacting with them first hand ..

MK3 is no fanboiesh imagination rather from Official mouth, I suggest go through thread before getting to these conclusions, I appreciate you realistic attitude but you do need to go through couple of things here ..

IAF area of operation lies within the range of Tejas and for beyond we have SU 30 MKI which will be upgraded to Super Sukoi soon. For increase in range a CFT option for Tejas must be considered. I believe DM has hit the jackpot with LCA tejas and will get the best of the Rafale deal or no Rafale if too costly. I wish we complete the FGFA deal on lines of SU 30 MKI and even more TOT.

That, sir, is a delusion.

We have the engine program going on, Kaveri will fly someday sooner or later on the LCA in its next variant probably K10 which will also power the AMCA. The indigenous AESA Uttam is almost there but has some weight issues that will be sorted out in some time and will be fitted in the next variant of Tejas MK2 or MK3. Most of the LRU's will be produced in house once production is ramped up and involvement of private players start.

A lot of maybes and could be's. Doesn't change the facts that F404 is also contracted for Mk-1 and F414 for Mk-2. Mk-3 is a fanboy creation,

Kaveri is not flying on any Tejas as we know it, probably NEVER. It can be tested on MiG-29 (for flight-test purpose, not replacing the RD-33) and will find use in AURA and other projects. The Tejas train has long been missed.

While DRDO/LRDE will peddle their wares regardless of the required timelines...it remains a matter of fact that developing an AESA radar for fighters is not so simple. The ELM-2052 is all but certain to be the radar for Mk-1A and most early tranches of Mk-2.

As of the moment of writing, the statements I made in the previous post are correct. When you speak for the future, you must understand you are talking about a lot of variables and what could happen may not happen as well.

 

[kstriya]

T

A lot of maybes and could be's. Doesn't change the facts that F404 is also contracted for Mk-1 and F414 for Mk-2. Mk-3 is a fanboy creation, there's no such thing in the plans for now - so assuming it could have X system on it is another delusion.

Kaveri is not flying on any Tejas as we know it, probably NEVER. It can be tested on MiG-29 (for flight-test purpose, not replacing the RD-33) and will find use in AURA and other projects. The Tejas train has long been missed.

While DRDO/LRDE will peddle their wares regardless of the required timelines...it remains a matter of fact that developing an AESA radar for fighters is not so simple. The ELM-2052 is all but certain to be the radar for Mk-1A and most early tranches of Mk-2.

As of the moment of writing, the statements I made in the previous post are correct. When you speak for the future, you must understand you are talking about a lot of variables and what could happen may not happen as well.

The current variable is that we might not get the Rafale, next is the lifecycle development of fighter aircraft has been learnt by Indian's so the next variant should not be as speculative you are trying to project. Fanboys we are else we would be in the IAF. Kaveri is not dead once tested on MIG 29 it will find its way to the Tejas program, it is just a matter of time. Uttam is being tested and will find its way into Tejas not sure in which variant. MIG 35 and T50 are derived from the existing platforms from the Russian inventory, so a MK3 stealth variant is not sci-fi can be a reality and with focus on indigenous and Make in India its a logical way forward for LCA project. I can understand apprehensions on delay and R&D capabilities but do we have an alternative to DRDO, your earlier post says all once sanctions come in place we will be in trouble. So if we can have some confidence in our scientists, they will be able to deliver as per expectations.

 

[tejas warrior]

In short, the most "domestic" aircraft on the block is actually the one that's most likely to be grounded as a result of foreign sanctions.

Foreign sanctions u r talking about is actually American sanctions.

Please understand, lots have changed in last 20 years and USA & India are much closer now. It's the same country currently supporting India to be included in nuclear supplier grp .. and see who is opposing now.

 

[tejas warrior]

And on the opposite side, u need permission + pay money to Dassault to even integrate ASTRA to Rafael.

Tejas is Indigenous fighter(even with not 100% components Indigenous at the moment) with we having all IPs with us. We can integrate what we want.. be it Israeli radars/ American engine Or any new DRDO Indigenous missiles.

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler, The purpose of Indigenous system is the design, Regarding material imported are mainly for prototypes as mass scale production is not viable for low number of examples,

Never said Tejas development did not help Indian industry - it sure did in a big way. The point I make was that we cannot stay in the delusion that Tejas is 100% Indian, or that all the money that goes into making it stays within India, or that foreign countries cannot control what happens with it to any extent.

This is obviously wrong because at the moment (and for the forseeable future) the LCA's heart remains American and it will stop beating when the POTUS so desires.

In the case of US sanctions, how long can we keep the F404 or F414 running without US support?

Overlooking this critical aspect and hoping for some magic to happen in the future is another delusion.

Tejas are not only meant for American engines,

End of the day, the fact remains that F404 is the only engine currently certified for LCA.

They can adapt to Russian and European and Indian of-course, This is what i know from official mouth while interacting with them first hand ..

But ofcourse, such conversion cannot happen overnight.

What did we do when US sanctions after '98 tests? We should have planned for other engine options then & there. So if and when sanctions happen again, we would have a 2nd engine option that's already tested & certified on LCA, so that we can quickly make the switch.

Getting down to validate a 2nd engine AFTER sanctions have taken place is not a very viable approach. You don't start growing corn after you feel hungry - it could take years to get it ready with another engine.

While I don't doubt you when you say you interacted with them (I know to trust you as a good source of info), it's not the first time we're seeing the officials from the state-run agencies blatantly say everything is possible and give unrealistic expectations & deadlines...only to find out later that it's not so easy and the actual work would take much longer and cost a lot more than expected.

Infact, that IS the routine.

MK3 is no fanboiesh imagination rather from Official mouth, I suggest go through thread before getting to these conclusions, I appreciate you realistic attitude but you do need to go through couple of things here ..

Frankly, I think even talking of Mk-3 when even the Mk-2 is still on paper in itself is fanboyish. Ofcourse the agencies may have some vivid future plans that they laid out on a drawing board on a lazy afternoon...it doesn't mean they can get it all done, or that IAF has actually wanted any of it. When they actually file an ASQR or something for Mk-3, I'll be ready to talk about it.

 

[Gessler]

The current variable is that we might not get the Rafale, next is the lifecycle development of fighter aircraft has been learnt by Indian's so the next variant should not be as speculative you are trying to project.

My post comes from the point of view that someone was in the delusion that unlike all these so-called "foreign" aircraft, the Tejas will ensure that everything is Indian, all the money stays within India, and other such stuff.

I simply showed that this is not the case as a lot of the most important & critical components of Tejas are from abroad...and are infact from countries which are far more likely to sanction us than those from whom we are buying the aforementioned 'foreign' aircraft.

Kaveri is not dead once tested on MIG 29 it will find its way to the Tejas program, it is just a matter of time.

Never said Kaveri was dead, don't twist my words. Infact I had argued on other forums about the uses Kaveri has even if the fighter-engine aspect of it would not be achieved.

Putting Kaveri on Tejas at this point (other than validating it as a 2nd engine option in case first is not available) serves ZERO practical or economical purpose. As we have already selected F404 for Mk-1 and F414 for Mk-2.

By the time Kaveri is actually ready for flight testing on Fulcrum, the F414s would have started arriving in India and by the time Kaveri can be tested on Tejas, we'd already have atleast a dozen plus of Mk-2s flying with F414s and more on the way.

Removing the US engines (which would still have lots of service life left) and putting Kaveri in their place is simply stupid and is a recipe for wasting money. And by the time the US engines' life is over, the Kaveri we would have tested by then would be obsolete and we'd need a new version.

Uttam is being tested and will find its way into Tejas not sure in which variant.

Uttam is still in early stages of development, testing toh door ki baat hai. The only AESA we're looking at that can operationally be put on an LCA in this decade (by 2020 atleast) is the ELM-2052.

 

[Gessler]

Foreign sanctions u r talking about is actually American sanctions.

Please understand, lots have changed in last 20 years and USA & India are much closer now. It's the same country currently supporting India to be included in nuclear supplier grp .. and see who is opposing now.

Please look at my post again and come back. I did not discuss geopolitics. I'm making the truth about the LCA's components clear for everyone to see.

I never said sanctions WILL take place - as I said in my reply to @kstriya I meant to illustrate how a lot of the critical components of LCA are from abroad...and from countries which are far more likely to sanction us than the countries from whom we are supposedly buying these 'foreign' aircraft.

 

[Rahul Singh]

First 4 LCA will mark the beginning of formation of first LCA squadron in IAF. And when IAF receives 20th LCA, first squardon will reach its full strength, hence marking the completion of first squardon. With delivery of 21th LCA to IAF formation of second will begin.

 

[akk]

First 4 LCA will mark the beginning of formation of first LCA squadron in IAF. And when IAF receives 20th LCA, first squardon will reach its full strength, hence marking the completion of first squardon. With delivery of 21th LCA to IAF formation of second will begin.

Sir that's merely your assumption. There is no such rule or please quote a reliable source that that's the norm.
as I mentioned earlier, there is no order for additional engines so there is no possibility of more than 20 aircraft in the next 3-4 years (minimum). So if parriker is to be believed about 4 squadrons in 3 years, it is only possible by forming squadrons with 4-6 aircraft or so.

 

[kstriya]

Never said Tejas development did not help Indian industry - it sure did in a big way. The point I make was that we cannot stay in the delusion that Tejas is 100% Indian, or that all the money that goes into making it stays within India, or that foreign countries cannot control what happens with it to any extent.

This is obviously wrong because at the moment (and for the forseeable future) the LCA's heart remains American and it will stop beating when the POTUS so desires.

In the case of US sanctions, how long can we keep the F404 or F414 running without US support?

Overlooking this critical aspect and hoping for some magic to happen in the future is another delusion.



End of the day, the fact remains that F404 is the only engine currently certified for LCA.



But ofcourse, such conversion cannot happen overnight.

What did we do when US sanctions after '98 tests? We should have planned for other engine options then & there. So if and when sanctions happen again, we would have a 2nd engine option that's already tested & certified on LCA, so that we can quickly make the switch.

Getting down to validate a 2nd engine AFTER sanctions have taken place is not a very viable approach. You don't start growing corn after you feel hungry - it could take years to get it ready with another engine.

While I don't doubt you when you say you interacted with them (I know to trust you as a good source of info), it's not the first time we're seeing the officials from the state-run agencies blatantly say everything is possible and give unrealistic expectations & deadlines...only to find out later that it's not so easy and the actual work would take much longer and cost a lot more than expected.

Infact, that IS the routine.



Frankly, I think even talking of Mk-3 when even the Mk-2 is still on paper in itself is fanboyish. Ofcourse the agencies may have some vivid future plans that they laid out on a drawing board on a lazy afternoon...it doesn't mean they can get it all done, or that IAF has actually wanted any of it. When they actually file an ASQR or something for Mk-3, I'll be ready to talk about it.

Every fighter aircraft requires 3 engines in its life time, We have an option to upgrade the GE engines with the Kaveri variant when the replacement time comes. Till then have it tested on Tejas and better the technology!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I wasn`t taking in sense of economy but technical.

===============

You seems don`t understand how Government works with respect to forces, Unless their is a requirement given no one has the authority to speak anything, There is not democracy here..

What you speaking regarding Indian R&D is simply a regular phenomenon around the globe, Their is nothing exaggerating within scientific community whom we interact but perhaps media exaggeration is plaguing common man .. ?

I won`t be very worried abt Tejas as it can be adopted with different engines not sure why this didn't made into news papers or no one cares to give attention to the positive details ..

US hardware are now norm in IAF, lot other vital areas in including majority of its transports, GOI knows what`s it doing ..

Never said Tejas development did not help Indian industry, This is obviously wrong because at the moment (and for the forseeable future) the LCA's heart remains American and it will stop beating when the POTUS so desires.

In the case of US sanctions, how long can we keep the F404 or F414 running without US support?

Overlooking this critical aspect and hoping for some magic to happen in the future is another delusion.

End of the day, the fact remains that F404 is the only engine currently certified for LCA.

But ofcourse, such conversion cannot happen overnight.

What did we do when US sanctions after '98 tests? We should have planned for other engine options then & there. So if and when sanctions happen again, we would have a 2nd engine option that's already tested & certified on LCA, so that we can quickly make the switch.

While I don't doubt you when you say you interacted with them (I know to trust you as a good source of info), it's not the first time we're seeing the officials from the state-run agencies blatantly say everything is possible and give unrealistic expectations & deadlines...only to find out later that it's not so easy and the actual work would take much longer and cost a lot more than expected.

Frankly, I think even talking of Mk-3 when even the Mk-2 is still on paper in itself is fanboyish. Ofcourse the agencies may have some vivid future plans that they laid out on a drawing board on a lazy afternoon...it doesn't mean they can get it all done, or that IAF has actually wanted any of it. When they actually file an ASQR or something for Mk-3, I'll be ready to talk about it.