ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[shiphone]

some simple facts to be corrected...

----------------------------------------
GE404 IN20 for LCA MK1 standard... GE website....

Thrust: 84 KN
Weight: 1072 KG

-----------------------------
by the year end of 2012...
Broadsword: Kaveri engine to fly futuristic unmanned aircraft

Business Standard visited the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that is developing the Kaveri engine. It reached a key landmark last year, when a prototype Kaveri was flight-tested in Russia at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI). The engine's performance was measured on a "flying test-bed", a four-engine IL-76 transport aircraft that had one of its original engines replaced with a Kaveri.

During this test the Kaveri did well, generating 49.2 KiloNewtons (KN) of "dry thrust", marginally less than its target of 51 KN. But there was a serious shortfall in "wet thrust"; the Kaveri generated just 70.4 KN, well short of the targeted 81 KN.

 

[Anony86]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

I read somewhere where it said it is under powered .... and overweight....
but if you see the engines still used in MIGS they are heavier and even produce lesser power.... they are happy to use them....

Once you start manufacturing say batch wise ... targetting one thing improvement at a time you can achieve your goal....
If you keep it stand still nothing is gonna come out of it...

we all know on manufacturing/assembly lines various alternatives arise which help the product...


Back to my question again...

Delays is one factor ok,,,, They why dont they let Kaveri be part of Tejas MK2 .... we have a engine and I say next 2-3 years we can do wonders with it... but if we buy the 414 then Kaveri even if it achieves the desired standards of IAF which are obviously too high will be sitting on the shelf waiting for the mid life change.... even then nothing can be promised....


IAF statement that it has achieved 78 not 81 how much is that relevant..??

81KN was the target set for Kaveri as per initial requirement of Tejas where it was supposed to be more of a interceptor and less of a multirole platform. Due to change in ASR by IAF, Tejas design has changed a lot and has gain weight. Empty weight of Tejas is close to 6.5 ton (initial plan was of 5.5 ton). Thus 81KN thrust is not the present day requirement. The engine which will be there in Serial Production produces 89KN of thrust. Moreover weight of Kaveri is cose to 150kg more. Thrust to weight ratio of F404-IN20 is 8.3:1 compared to 6.5:1 of Kaveri.

Moreover Kaveri turbine blades throw fire and is not reliable when afterburner is used. In short, Kaveri has achieved its dry thrust target but is still some years away from powering a fighter. Again the problem is not its design as claim by many members as it is from the very beginning was designed to be sub 80KN power engine. The problem is our lack in experience in metallurgy department

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

81KN was the target set for Kaveri as per initial requirement of Tejas where it was supposed to be more of a interceptor and less of a multirole platform. Due to change in ASR by IAF, Tejas design has changed a lot and has gain weight. Empty weight of Tejas is close to 6.5 ton (initial plan was of 5.5 ton). Thus 81KN thrust is not the present day requirement. The engine which will be there in Serial Production produces 89KN of thrust. Moreover weight of Kaveri is cose to 150kg more. Thrust to weight ratio of F404-IN20 is 8.3:1 compared to 6.5:1 of Kaveri.

Moreover Kaveri turbine blades throw fire and is not reliable when afterburner is used. In short, Kaveri has achieved its dry thrust target but is still some years away from powering a fighter. Again the problem is not its design as claim by many members as it is from the very beginning was designed to be sub 80KN power engine. The problem is our lack in experience in metallurgy department

Ya in some shorts I do agree with u.rather than these issues, lack of determination of GTRE in completing kaveri project is another reason.

 

[Twinblade]

some simple facts to be corrected...

----------------------------------------
GE404 IN20 for LCA MK1 standard... GE website....

Thrust: 84 KN
Weight: 1072 KG

Some simple facts you forgot to check the latest status on.

F404-GE-IN20
Dimensions: Diameter 890 mm, Length 3.9 m
Weights: Max Weight 1,035 kg (2,282 lb)
Engines Performance: Thrust 9,163 kg (20,200 lb)

LCA Tejas - Specifications: Powerplant

That is 89.89KN.

-----------------------------
by the year end of 2012...
Broadsword: Kaveri engine to fly futuristic unmanned aircraft

By year 2014 it has acheived 78 KN.

 

[shiphone]

1)LOL...I never think you would quote that 'strange' figure on that old page....
2) I haven't read that report about this 78 KN ...would you?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

If you are copying this text from somewhere else, You must stop ..

Their is no where written that Tejas were dedicated Interceptor, They were always shown with multi-role capability even before the first prototype, Tejas Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8 not 6:5 and IAF wanted it to be 8.1 ..

========

Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven. There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue.

Source : Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister


With AB ..

========

Aug 17, 2011
"Nine prototypes of Kaveri engine and four prototypes of Kaveri Core (Kabini) engines have been developed with over 2,000 hours of testing...the engine is proven with almost 80 kilonewtons (kN) of thrust now,

Source : DRDO says its Kaveri engine can power combat drones, warships and possibly trains - The Times of India

Dr. V.K. Saraswat talk in IIT - Bombay said - Current Kaveri generates 78KN wet thrust Vs goal of 81KN. as posted at BR by Member @Indranilroy ..

========

81KN was the target set for Kaveri as per initial requirement of Tejas where it was supposed to be more of a interceptor and less of a multirole platform. Due to change in ASR by IAF, Tejas design has changed a lot and has gain weight. Empty weight of Tejas is close to 6.5 ton (initial plan was of 5.5 ton). Thus 81KN thrust is not the present day requirement. The engine which will be there in Serial Production produces 89KN of thrust. Moreover weight of Kaveri is cose to 150kg more. Thrust to weight ratio of F404-IN20 is 8.3:1 compared to 6.5:1 of Kaveri.

Moreover Kaveri turbine blades throw fire and is not reliable when afterburner is used. In short, Kaveri has achieved its dry thrust target but is still some years away from powering a fighter. Again the problem is not its design as claim by many members as it is from the very beginning was designed to be sub 80KN power engine. The problem is our lack in experience in metallurgy department

========
========
@Pulkit your answer is here, Watch ..

I have two sources regarding 14 squadrons of Tejas, Their is separate thread for it, Once the production facility are made the news will be on Media on mass ..

Back to my question again...

Delays is one factor ok,,,, They why dont they let Kaveri be part of Tejas MK2 .... we have a engine and I say next 2-3 years we can do wonders with it... but if we buy the 414 then Kaveri even if it achieves the desired standards of IAF which are obviously too high will be sitting on the shelf waiting for the mid life change.... even then nothing can be promised....

IAF statement that it has achieved 78 not 81 how much is that relevant..??

 

[Twinblade]

1)LOL...I never think you would quote that 'strange' figure on that old page....

The figure you quoted are sea level thrust figures. Try reading what you post.

2) I haven't read that report about this 78 KN ...would you?

Lurk more?

 

[Apollyon]

GE F404-400 Thrust variation wrt Speed at an altitude

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Tejas Trainer PV 6 Completes First Flight Successfully

Bengaluru, November 8: The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme received a shot in the arm when PV6 (Prototype Vehicle 6), a final configuration two-seater trainer aircraft from the flight-line, successfully completed its maiden flight at the HAL Airport in Bengaluru on Saturday. The flight was piloted by Grp Capt Vivart Singh along with co-pilot Grp Capt Anoop Kabadwal, both Test Pilots from the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) here. Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Director P.S. Subramanyam told OneIndia that the flight lasted for around 35-minutes. "Yet another flight that stuck to the textbook plans. The pilots were able to do all the planned maneuvers with great ease.

The new engine was tested to full power under all available conditions," Subramanyam said. The PV-6 climbed to a maximum altitude of 30,000 feet, touched 0.7 Mach (speed) and pitched up to 14 degrees angle of attack (AoA). This is the 15th Tejas variant to have flown as part of the programme, the earlier ones being TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, PV5 (Trainer), LSP1, LSP2, LSP3, LSP4, LSP5,LSP7, LSP8 and SP1. A naval variant (NP-1) of LCA is also undergoing flight trials now. Final trainer prototype Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Chairman R K Tyagi, who spoke to OneIndia from Delhi over the phone, said that with Saturday's successful flight of PV6, the series production activities will gain further momentum. "It's another achievement done by my team along with other stakeholders. Today, I am confident that every Tejas variant coming out of our hangars will act as our brand ambassador," Tyagi said.

HAL said that all systems onboard PV6 responded as expected during the course of the flight. The PV6 is the second two-seater having the capability to deliver all air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons as mandated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for the programme's much-awaited Final Operational Clearance. "We wanted to check the functioning of the twin cockpit and its features on board PV6, based on which the series production requirements of the two-seater trainer will be finalised. Further flights of PV6 will ensure that all the post-flight feedback from the pilots is incorporated," Tyagi added. 2700-plus flights sans any major incidents Since its maiden flight on January 4, 2001, various Tejas variants have together completed 2,772 flights as on date logging approximately 1800 hours. With no single mishaps till date, the HAL-ADA-IAF combine have given a new thrust to the programme, notwithstanding its delays. In addition to the new engine (GE-404 IN20), PV6 had on board a new communication system, radar, EW sensors and navigation systems for automatic landing. Operations from the front and rear cockpits are fully exchangeable.

Read more at: Tejas Trainer PV 6 completes first flight successfully - News Oneindia

 

[ersakthivel]

some simple facts to be corrected...

----------------------------------------
GE404 IN20 for LCA MK1 standard... GE website....

Thrust: 84 KN
Weight: 1072 KG

-----------------------------
by the year end of 2012...
Broadsword: Kaveri engine to fly futuristic unmanned aircraft

Business Standard visited the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that is developing the Kaveri engine. It reached a key landmark last year, when a prototype Kaveri was flight-tested in Russia at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI). The engine's performance was measured on a "flying test-bed", a four-engine IL-76 transport aircraft that had one of its original engines replaced with a Kaveri.

During this test the Kaveri did well, generating 49.2 KiloNewtons (KN) of "dry thrust", marginally less than its target of 51 KN. But there was a serious shortfall in "wet thrust"; the Kaveri generated just 70.4 KN, well short of the targeted 81 KN.

At sea level the engine generates highest amount of thrust.

You should clarify at what altitudes the 70.4 Kn thrust was achieved.

Ajai Shukla does not pin point those details. he will report what was made available to him. SO it is quite natural for him to miss the altitude detail in his 70.4 Kn remark.

If it was achieved at high cruising altitude then the statement by saraswath that it achieved 97 percent of its designed wet thrust is also correct. he would have mentioned the thrust the engine developed at sea level.

Even bangalore is situated at 920 meter above sea level. So altitude should be mentioned with thrust level for a logical comparison.

So V.K. Saraswaht's statement that the engine has achieved close to 97 percent of its designed wet thrust need not be doubted in the absence of concrete evidence against it.

Now there is news that that DRDO has succeeded in developing production level SCB tech for jet engines. We need to know what is the temp endurance of this SCB tech . that will give us a good indicator for the development potential of kaveri.

Because higher temp endurance means one engine stage is dropped and engine also sheds some weight all the while increasing thermal efficiency.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is my humble request that you write a blog with all the points and post the link on the twitter page of our PM and the new defense minister Mr. Manohar Parikkar. Indian news papers just fight for their own freedom of speech, but when it comes to freedom in allowing our comments, they prefer dictatorship. Hypocritical buggers!

I agree with you completely that there exists a lobby of retired IAF officers who have been heavily influenced by the foreign defense companies to constantly downgrade Tejas and influence the government to purchase fighter jets from abroad, recently more from the west than just Russia. If IAF is ruining the efforts of all the engineers in Tejas and LCH, the Indian army is ruining the efforts of all the engineers with Arjun MBT MK2. All of these Indian products are excellent hardware, stuck up unfortunately in Victorian mind set, ego and corruption.

Please start writing a blog, Saktivel.

cheers.

@Senyor Sandeep, good suggestion. @ersakthivel could write a well argued and convincing article, and it could be considered for DFI front page after staff review. I would be more than happy to edit it.

I will give it a try once the FOC is completed and the final G and AOA limits are released for tejas.

Also Aeroindia2015 tejas display should be scrutinized before coming to a conclusion.

Last time tejas completed a vertical loop in aeroindia 2013 in 20 seconds, it was limited to 6Gs and 20 deg AOA.Its horizontal turn was done in around 24 plus seconds. i dont know what is the reason for the big variation. ANd during the horizontal turn tejas did not fully go on knife edge either.

Now tweets from Saurav jha and statements from DRDO Aero DG Tamil mani reveal that final G restriction will be 8 plus Gs and AOA is already getting close to 27 deg.

These are crucial figures ,because the lift force to AOA relation is not linear. maximum co efficient of lift that can be achieved peaks in higher AOAs . SO that will drastically improve its sustained turning ability. Higher G limit will also add to this.

And last time close to 400 kg of telemetry equipment and other air data sensors were also on board making the fighter heavier. if SP-1 comes to aeroindia 2015 this dead weight wont be there. We dont know whether LSP-8 or SP-1 which takes to skies in aeroindia 2015.

There were a few press statements already made indicating that tejas Sp-1 is much better in performance than LSP-8.

We will see all this to know what has been achieved between IOC-2 and now.

Then only we can arrive at any useful conclusion that wont be hotly contested here. Otherwise all hell will break lose once again leading to uncivilized arguments.

 

[Kharavela]

I will give it a try once the FOC is completed and the final G and AOA limits are released for tejas.

Also Aeroindia2015 tejas display should be scrutinized before coming to a conclusion.

Last time tejas completed a vertical loop in aeroindia 2013 in 20 seconds, it was limited to 6Gs and 20 deg AOA.Its horizontal turn was done in around 24 plus seconds. i dont know what is the reason for the big variation. ANd during the horizontal turn tejas did not fully go on knife edge either.

Now tweets from Saurav jha and statements from DRDO Aero DG Tamil mani reveal that final G restriction will be 8 plus Gs and AOA is already getting close to 27 deg.

These are crucial figures ,because the lift force to AOA relation is not linear. maximum co efficient of lift that can be achieved peaks in higher AOAs . SO that will drastically improve its sustained turning ability. Higher G limit will also add to this.

And last time close to 400 kg of telemetry equipment and other air data sensors were also on board making the fighter heavier. if SP-1 comes to aeroindia 2015 this dead weight wont be there. We dont know whether LSP-8 or SP-1 which takes to skies in aeroindia 2015.

There were a few press statements already made indicating that tejas Sp-1 is much better in performance than LSP-8.

We will see all this to know what has been achieved between IOC-2 and now.

Then only we can arrive at any useful conclusion that wont be hotly contested here. Otherwise all hell will break lose once again leading to uncivilized arguments.

Sir, as suggested above, do write a detailed analysis regarding LCA project & tag our new "Raksha Mantri" @manoharparrikar along with Prime Minister @narendramodi. I (along with all DFI friends) strongly believe that such direct communication to PM & RM will bust the Chair Marshalls' conspiracy against indegenious LCA.

 

[Anony86]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

If you are copying this text from somewhere else, You must stop ..

Their is no where written that Tejas were dedicated Interceptor, They were always shown with multi-role capability even before the first prototype, Tejas Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8 not 6:5 and IAF wanted it to be 8.1 ..

Firstly, watching interviews, reliable sources and online browsing are the three sources from where I gain knowledge on any defence related matters. I didn't understand what you meant by copying text. If I read it somewhere online, naturally I will be copying text while writing the same over here.

Secondly, trolling and intentionally misinforming is not in my habit. Whatever claims I have made about Kaveri engine are justified and from the interview of Dr. Saraswat which most probably he has given on may'12, it gets more consolidated. He admitted that Kaveri weight has increased. Kaveri produces 78KN of thrust and it weighs 1235kg. If you divide the figures, you will come to 6.5:1 thrust to weight ratio of Kaveri which I claimed.

Thirdly, we say we are unable to produce blisk,SCB and better core for Kaveri engine, if you dig a little more it only means we are yet to master many metallic & non-allic alloys in the correct mix which can withstand high temperatures and thus I claimed our lack in experience in metallurgy department.

Fourthly, I am the biggest supporter of indigenous weapon but have guts to accept that yes we are yet to become self sufficient on few most important technologies.

And you don't have to read somewhere, just look at the initial weapon configuration planned for Tejas pre 2002, and you will understand, why I said that it was not supposed to be a true multirole fighter initially but change in ASR and change in the way fighter planes has evolved, Tejas has turned into a true multirole fighter.
Mind you, I don't even term older Mirage as multirole but only upgraded onces. They were more of a bomber which can protect itself in close fight.

Moreover, just look at the wings of first Tejas prototype which flew to the ones of the latest LSP-8. The sweep angles of the wings of PV1 will indicate a platform that was design to fly high with fast acceleration than the one today which focuses on disecting the air equally all alongs the wings to generate lift and more important balance when flying at low altitude
So tell me which part of my statement, you really felt bogus or you thought that I am purposefully misinforming.

 

[Senyor Sandeep]

I will give it a try once the FOC is completed and the final G and AOA limits are released for tejas.

Also Aeroindia2015 tejas display should be scrutinized before coming to a conclusion.

Last time tejas completed a vertical loop in aeroindia 2013 in 20 seconds, it was limited to 6Gs and 20 deg AOA.Its horizontal turn was done in around 24 plus seconds. i dont know what is the reason for the big variation. ANd during the horizontal turn tejas did not fully go on knife edge either.

Now tweets from Saurav jha and statements from DRDO Aero DG Tamil mani reveal that final G restriction will be 8 plus Gs and AOA is already getting close to 27 deg.

These are crucial figures ,because the lift force to AOA relation is not linear. maximum co efficient of lift that can be achieved peaks in higher AOAs . SO that will drastically improve its sustained turning ability. Higher G limit will also add to this.

And last time close to 400 kg of telemetry equipment and other air data sensors were also on board making the fighter heavier. if SP-1 comes to aeroindia 2015 this dead weight wont be there. We dont know whether LSP-8 or SP-1 which takes to skies in aeroindia 2015.

There were a few press statements already made indicating that tejas Sp-1 is much better in performance than LSP-8.

We will see all this to know what has been achieved between IOC-2 and now.

Then only we can arrive at any useful conclusion that wont be hotly contested here. Otherwise all hell will break lose once again leading to uncivilized arguments.

Again it is my humble request that you do not wait that long. Whatever your points that could clear the misinformation campaign being circulated by the media and put the facts straight should be shared with the defense minister and with the PM, without any further delay. Please write a multi page article about why you think LCA Tejas MK1 and Arjun MK2 tanks (Also may be LCH) are superior choices and how the lobbyists are stifling every attempt of making our military indigenous. Also include your point that in place of 1 Rafale, two to three Tejas can be bought and two to three Tejas would easily knock down 1 Rafale. In a way, if you could make them convince that spending so much money on Rafale could be avoided by spending the same money in getting three times more squadrons through Tejas, that would be a very great achievement for our indigenous programs. I don't suggest that you write only the positives of our hardware and try to hide the drawbacks, but merely saying that share the facts, both positive and areas that need improvisation, thereby breaking the unjustified myth and misinformation campaign promoted and funded by the foreign defense lobbyists. Also mention the need for media to stay away from such misinformation campaign, particularly in sensitive areas like national security.

Write the articles here and share the link, so that we all can post it to the twitter page of Mr. Narendra Modi and Mr. Manohar Parikkar. Also on a general note, I think Indian experts and avid freelance defense analysts should run a media, dedicated to reliable and genuine information about Indian defense, its past, present, future, all the research that happens in our country in the area of defense and comparing our capabilities with that of the other advanced armies to highlight our strengths, where we stand and the vital areas where we need to learn from them. The easiest way to do so is to open a twitter and facebook account in the name of DFI and circulate a regular news letters, updates every week through twitter and face book. In these news letters and updates, experienced and knowledgeable experts can also confront any news article related to defense that gets published in the main stream media with false or biased information, far from the actual reality.

Cheers

 

[Senyor Sandeep]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

A Comparison is required >>

Thank you for responding to my request with your post. Appreciate it.

 

[sgarg]

I think Mr Modi want to achieve 50% indigenous equipment in next 10 years. So the government is very clear on what it wants to do.

LCA Tejas has become critical to fulfill this vision. Actually the government needs more than LCA Tejas. The government wants local manufacturing of weapons and engines also.

GOI has invited foreign companies to start manufacturing in India through joint ventures. Some foreign companies will definitely take advantage of relaxed rules.

LCA Tejas is definitely going into IAF. There is no doubt about that. The actual production numbers will also increase when certain parameters are met.

 

[archie]

Why Dont we just Gift say 2 squadrons of LCA mk1 to afganistan.. if those people say LCA is a sub par.. that would definatley help piss of Pak and help in stratigic dev in afganistan and feather in the cap for HAL...

 

[sgarg]

Why Dont we just Gift say 2 squadrons of LCA mk1 to afganistan.. if those people say LCA is a sub par.. that would definatley help piss of Pak and help in stratigic dev in afganistan and feather in the cap for HAL...

Afghanistan does not need LCA. Afghanistan will remain under American protection for some more time, so American airpower is still available to it.
India is already helping Afghanistan in the area of land forces.

 

[archie]

Afghanistan does not need LCA. Afghanistan will remain under American protection for some more time, so American airpower is still available to it.
India is already helping Afghanistan in the area of land forces.

The Idea was to make give HAL an oppurtunity to get some orders and at the same time if the IAF chiefs belive that its a very poor fighter let an independent 3rd country test it.. i mean afgans dont have any airforce now.. giving it would raise the eyebrows and get some light on the capabilities of the fighter.. i only mean MK1 not the MK2

 

[sgarg]

The Idea was to make give HAL an oppurtunity to get some orders and at the same time if the IAF chiefs belive that its a very poor fighter let an independent 3rd country test it.. i mean afgans dont have any airforce now.. giving it would raise the eyebrows and get some light on the capabilities of the fighter.. i only mean MK1 not the MK2

Why do you think MOD will not place LCA Tejas orders?? Which country will supply a similar plane at $24M???