ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kunal Biswas]

MK1 is getting AESA too ..

LRDE is developing Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU) based fire control radar for LCA Mk1 and Mk2 platform under project Uttam.

 

[sgarg]

MK1 is getting AESA too ..

This is what I said on this forum earlier if you remember. The government has approved Israeli AESA for Tejas Mark I.
However this is what is causing consternation is anti-Tejas lobby. The earlier UPA govt was able to keep LCA Tejas program "in check" by selectively approving requests.

The vested interests have done everything first to stop LCA project; and then to delay it. I have great praise for ADA and for leadership of DRDO who have persevered against such odds.

LCA Tejas is a very much product of ADA/DRDO, not HAL. HAL must not be given undue credit in this project. HAL was the industrial partner, and its job was fabrication as per drawings. HAL's experience in aircraft manufacturing must have been used, but that would have happened with any other industrial partner too.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

This is what I said on this forum earlier if you remember. The government has approved Israeli AESA for Tejas Mark I.
However this is what is causing consternation is anti-Tejas lobby. The earlier UPA govt was able to keep LCA Tejas program "in check" by selectively approving requests.

The vested interests have done everything first to stop LCA project; and then to delay it. I have great praise for ADA and for leadership of DRDO who have persevered against such odds.

LCA Tejas is a very much product of ADA/DRDO, not HAL. HAL must not be given undue credit in this project. HAL was the industrial partner, and its job was fabrication as per drawings. HAL's experience in aircraft manufacturing must have been used, but that would have happened with any other industrial partner too.

defntely

HAL should not be given undue credit at the same time it should not be given undue lashings for Tejas

as it was just an industrial contractor

 

[Android]

ADA has been doing a great job but if some report of merging of ADA & HAL are true, then i am not in favour it. As for HAL ,what needs to be done is make people in their work their asses off,make them realise they are working on a project which is of a national importance and is not just a JOB which they are being paid for,in short lazzines has to be removed,young engeniers have to be given more chance,not let people continue with their job even after retierment. Increase the production rate of the aircrafts to around a squadron a year(it's planned to expand production rate at 15/yr i guess,correct me if i am wrong). And let private sector participate in the production if the planes which would take work load of HAL and give some experience to the private players which in the long run would mean a lot. Though Tata already have some experience in assembly of heli's at lockheed factory in hyderabad,which is a positive,L&T and M&M are also perfered options
*Thankfully govt had shown intrest in letting private players play a major role in Indian defence sector,though it would take while do see how much difference does it make.

defntely

HAL should not be given undue credit at the same time it should not be given undue lashings for Tejas

as it was just an industrial contractor

Exactly,at times people seem to be confused between ADA,HAL & DRDO's role into making this aircraft,perhaps HAL is criticised just because of the this name tag "HAL tejas" ,though its work would begin now,when large scale production begins.

 

[knathan]

Those who critisizing LCA-mk1
replacing 2nd generation = 2nd generation, is worth?
replacing 3rd generation = 3rd generation, is worth?
Mig21=2++nd generation, but LCA mk1 is 4th and we are nearing 4.5++.
for example i heared only one test of prahaar, but they showed pragati for export, how is it possible(belive something happening without public knowledge)same for LCA mk1.
someone told some years before that lca mk1 avoided locking from mig29 by meanuvaring.
what else want from lca-mk1?
i hope within range lca can beat anything except 5th gen.
kunal sir, ersaktivel sir and other experts can explain please...

 

[Zebra]

@ersakthivel if all problems with LCA is because of IAF,then why can't HAL produce even a IJT or basic trainer aircraft on time?

Sir, modus operandi of IAF remain same in all of those projects.

When 60-70% project get finished, precisely after it, IAF will pop up from middle of nowhere and say that engine is under power.

And the poor developer have to go through again, whatever they did till date.

The funny part here is IAF will start their cry after some time and say look they become late again.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel if all problems with LCA is because of IAF,then why can't HAL produce even a IJT or basic trainer aircraft on time?

ADA along with partnership from 100s of universities and research labs across india and foreign consultancies has designed tejas . HAL built tejas as an engineering contractor. But IJT is a totally in house effort by HAL.

And mid way during the IJT build IAF asked for engine change from the original french to russian engine with higher thrust. We dont know whether it added to the problems of IJT or not.

 

[ersakthivel]

MMRCA an Absolute Necessity - The New Indian Express

I have posted many comments (like the one below)rebutting the AVM's views in the comment section on his disparaging pairing of tejas along with hawk, strangely all my comments are not appearing,


but comments congratulating the AVM for his cheap misinformative articles appearing in dozens, When my comment below which I posted repeatedly is not appearing.
SO forum members please copy this comment and post it in your name and see whether it appears or not?

teja 1 and mk2 are by no means legacy platforms.The present CAS has said that tejas is a welcome addition to IAF's fighting capacity. I dont remember any airchief calling it a legacy platform. Even PV Naik said that once tejas finishes FOC it will be a true multi role 4.5th gen fighter in the gripen class .

Upgraded mirage-2000s will have a far lower range BVR missile than both tejas mk1 and mk2 along with 10 and 30 percent lower Thrust to weight ratio compared to tejas mk1 and mk2 respectively.So how come it become a non legaacy platform while tejas which has better Thrust to Weight ratio and lower wing loading than Mirage-2000 become legacy fighter?

the IAF group captain and most experienced international award winning test pilot of tejas Suneeth krishna has said that tejas mk1 is "at least equal to upgraded mirage-2000". So which is a legacy platform?Grouping tejas with useless hawk and jag shows the article is not reflecting the true ground reality.It is surprising to see high IAF officials routinely indulging in this hate mongering on tejas, whether the recently held Vayu stratpost conference or this article they never fail to mention that tejas is just a mig-21 replacement or it should be closed down or it is a legacy platform!!!!But test pilot accounts are so different from their views!!!!


So it is quiet surprising to hear that while 5 decades old Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are supposed to be cutting edge frontline fighters tejas is called a legacy platform.Tejas has a bigger radome dia than rafale to fit any future higher powered ASEA radars.

Legacy means older designs.In that case it is the rafale which is older in design than both Tejas mk1 and mk2.And once china inducts J-20 and J-31 the 20 billion dollar rafale will be a true legacy platform designed in the 1980s with no stealth 5th gen airframe concepts in mind.

People are free to support any fighter of their choice for MMRCA, but that doesn't mean one has to stick a legacy label on tejas, mk2 of which is yet to fly.how come a fighter that hasn't even flown become a legacy platform?

I thought ASRs were issued with certain capability aims. It is the first time I hear that MMRCA was selected for coercive capability to affect the mind of adversary!!!!

Including the Eurofighter is no canard by kanard. Airmarshal should remember that IAF has shortlisted both rafale and eurofighter for their MMRCA shortlist.In case eurofighter was offered at a lower price , it would have won the MMRCA bid.Even now if some problem arose in negotiations with Dassault Eurofighter is still the L2 choice.

I want to know what type of brainstorming went on between IAF and HAL for decades which could not solve the fuel pump issues of HPT-32? And Why with base repair depots good enough to design and make a MMRCA class fighter and assemble a Pliatus level trainer , IAF cpuld not rectify the fuel pump issues of HPT-32 And why did Arjun Subramanium failed to mention about the HPT-35 which too was developed at the behest of IAf by HAL was not pursued with interest by IAF for close to a decade ? it was shelved because IAF did not show any interest. It was this decade long delay by IAF which did not approve the HPT-35 proposal from HAL which led to this sorry state pf importing Pilatus while designing tejas!!!!!!!!!! Ajai Shukla and many other writers have pointed this out in many blogs. It is not Bharat Karnad alone.

The fuel fraction (percentage of weight of fuel divided by eight of the fully loaded fighter)is what determines the range of the fighter. The ferry range of all fighters like Mig-29, RAFALE Mirage-Tejas which all have varying weights is more or less the same.So for normal combat loads with normal fuel config they will all have normal ranges. Also a fully indigenous produced Su-30 MKI is already available for long range bombing. Then what is the need for medium range RAFALE which will have 10 or twenty percentage range advantage over tejas mk-2 at a huge forex outgo of 20 billion dollars? Also FGFA is slated to come in in a decade. Then what role will RAFALE do which can not be performed by combination of tejas mk-2, SU-30 MKI(upgraded to super sukhoi status) and tejas mk-2? So this medium class is totally unnecessary classification designed to fool the inexperienced political leadership and aviation enthusiasts.


If more weapon weight is needed we can use two tejas mk-2s in place of one RAFALE if both have the same range .The real question is what does IAF gain by inducting so called 20 ton class RAFALE as a meium weight fighter ?The french are standardizing on on all RAFALE fighter force with twin engined 20 ton RAFALEs Meanwhile russians are standardizing on 30n ton twin engined PAKFA and Su-35, The US is inducting single engined F-35 in large scale. Unlike IAF the above mentioned airforces need to fly long distances to fight the enemy. It is not the case with IAF.Where most of the targets are well with in short range. And when it comes to air defence of Indian airspace tejas mk-2 will have no shortfalls compared to RAFALE on account of range or weapon load. Also work is already going on ASEA radar miniaturization and LRDE has fair experience in it.

And we are no longer under crippling western sanctions so we will find partners on that count with no restrictions. Even RAFALE has just put on ASEA radar for trials. We don't how fully developed it really is PAF is going for 120 light class Jf-17, are all these airforces buy any light medium or heavy fighter that is missing from their fleet from any third country? Certainly they won't do such a stupid thing . Fuel fraction (weight of fuel/loaded weight for normal combat sorties in design weapon loads)determines the range not the fighter being named light or heavy. if tejas mk-2 has same fuel fraction as RAFALE it will also have th same range. Most probably it will end up ten to twenty percent shortage in range nothing big, Also we can employ three tejas mk-2 with 15 ton weapon loads with same radar diameter and long range BVR missiles of RAFALE for the cost of one RAFALE.


So no shortage when it comes to weapon load. Infact tejas mk-2s will deliver double the weapon load with three times more sensor capability if costs are taken into account MMRCA contract originated as a proposal to buy 126 Mirage -2000 in the late 90s. To avoid the single vendor situation GOI asked it to be a global tender in 2004. Before that there was no long felt need in IAF for so called 20 ton medium weight fighter. tejas mk-2 will have at the most a twenty percent shortage when it comes to weapon load and range requirements over RAFALE. But ordering a few more squadrons of very low priced(because of the 100 percent indigenization) Su-30 MKIs in super Sukhoi versions or increasing the numbers of FGFA to by a few squadrons will be equal to having RAFALEs. Certainly there is no such thing that Su-30 MKi, Tejas mk-2 and FGFA combine can't do that RAFALE can!!!


If you spend the same 20 to 30 billion (considering high maintanece cost)in the two coming decades on such tejas mk-2 and and a few extra squads of FGFA or Su-30 MKI IAF can improve its attcaking capability in a substantial manner. We can have more than 300 fighters in such combo compared to just 126 RAFALEs for the same cost. Also the MMRCA contract was changed form life cycle cost based buy to per unit fly away cost mid way. And the winner Dassault which entered the competition knowing well that the HAL is to be its local partner is saying HAL is unfit for the job. if a a no experience private sector firm gets chosen by dassault as local partners then all the TOT norms go for a toss. The MMRCA was not an original need . It was born from the 126 Mirage-2000 buy proposal which was shot down because of single vendor situation by MOD in 2004 , thus it became MMRCA. If MOD promptly accepted the 126 mirage-2000 buy from IAF there would be no MMRCA.

both tejas and rafale completed the vertical loop within 20 seconds in aeroindia 2013. At that time tejas flight envelope was restricted to IOC limit of 20 deg AOA and 6Gs. But now it is getting to 27 deg AOA and 8 plus Gs for tejas till now as posted by Sarav jha's tweet.

SO right now tejas will complete the vertical loop in much lesser time than 20 seconds. So how can you compare it with hawk?

Please let us all know what is the time taken by your frontline mirage-2000 to complete a vertical loop in hot indian weather condition which saps ten percent of wing lift and ten percent of engine thrust?

I dont know what kind of weird censorship is this?

In the age of social media why are mainstream media guys stooping to such lows to delete comments?

tejas has a 650 radar dia, along with 100 plus Km range BVR in astra mk2 and 80 km range BVR in astra mk1.

mirage -2000 has 500 mm dia radar, 50 km range Mica as its main BVR and mirage-2000 has a lower thrust to weight ratio than even tejas mk1 and has a higher wing loading as well.

But AVM says that mirage-2000 along with SU-30 MKI will do frontline job abnd tejas along with hawks will do some scavenging.
Is it IAF's policy to send deaf and dumb guys to put up such stodgy forged pieces?
Why should a serving Airmarshal throw mud on tejas?

And why should my comments questioning this forgery be deleted repeatedly.

Forum members should group up and post these facts in the article's comments section and lets see whether they will stick with censorship or will let the truth prevail?

 

[archie]

I wish aerobatic team "suriya kiran" takes up tejas or may be HAL should sponsor one as HAL aero team and compete with suriya kiran

 

[ersakthivel]

See the aeroindia 2013 vedio. tejas was under IOC limit of 20 deg AOA and 6 G limit. ALSo tejas LSP had close to half a ton of flight test telemetry equippment on board at that time leading to excess weight, It completed a vertical loop within 20 seconds. rafale too completed the same vertical loop at the same twenty seconds.

Now tejas flight envelope has expanded to 27 deg AOA and 8 plus Gs according to Saurav jha's tweet.Even after FOC LSP 8 will be used to further expand the flight envelope to low 30 plus deg AOA accordign to Suneeth krisha the chief test pilot of tejas. And these fly by wire software upgrade of LSP-8 will be ported on to other SPs as well.

Can AVM subramanium guarantee that "his front line upgraded mirage-2000(45 million dollar per piece upgrade!!!)" complete a vertical loop in a time less than 20 seconds at aeroindia 2013 altitude and temperature conditions?

I have posted the above comment under the name of sakthi which is my DISQUS login name, once again in the comment section of the article

http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns/MMRCA-an-Absolute-Necessity/2014/10/27/article2494484.ece
.Lets see whether they censor it or let it be up loaded?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

ADA has been doing a great job but if some report of merging of ADA & HAL are true, then i am not in favour it. As for HAL ,what needs to be done is make people in their work their asses off,make them realise they are working on a project which is of a national importance and is not just a JOB which they are being paid for,in short lazzines has to be removed,young engeniers have to be given more chance,not let people continue with their job even after retierment. Increase the production rate of the aircrafts to around a squadron a year(it's planned to expand production rate at 15/yr i guess,correct me if i am wrong). And let private sector participate in the production if the planes which would take work load of HAL and give some experience to the private players which in the long run would mean a lot. Though Tata already have some experience in assembly of heli's at lockheed factory in hyderabad,which is a positive,L&T and M&M are also perfered options
*Thankfully govt had shown intrest in letting private players play a major role in Indian defence sector,though it would take while do see how much difference does it make.


Exactly,at times people seem to be confused between ADA,HAL & DRDO's role into making this aircraft,perhaps HAL is criticised just because of the this name tag "HAL tejas" ,though its work would begin now,when large scale production begins.

you want HAL to build more than 22/year more than 1 sqdn / year

very good

where are the orders required to justify that kind of investments ?


see HAL and the HAL production capacity is not the bottleneck here - the bottleneck is IAF

if IAF places more Nos on orders and accepts accelerated delivery schedule then only it is possible

if iaf places orders for 24 Mk1 / year for 5 years i.e. 120 plane and accpets deliverry for 24 / planes every year then HAL can produce them

how can HAL produce large no of Mk1 without orders ?

 

[arnabmit]

[tweet]529148895696130048[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/529148895696130048

 

[sgarg]

you want HAL to build more than 22/year more than 1 sqdn / year

very good

where are the orders required to justify that kind of investments ?


see HAL and the HAL production capacity is not the bottleneck here - the bottleneck is IAF

if IAF places more Nos on orders and accepts accelerated delivery schedule then only it is possible

if iaf places orders for 24 Mk1 / year for 5 years i.e. 120 plane and accpets deliverry for 24 / planes every year then HAL can produce them

how can HAL produce large no of Mk1 without orders ?

I can assure you GOI will force IAF to order LCA Tejas even more than 22 per year.
This drama of Rafale will not last forever.

 

[Android]

you want HAL to build more than 22/year more than 1 sqdn / year

very good

where are the orders required to justify that kind of investments ?


see HAL and the HAL production capacity is not the bottleneck here - the bottleneck is IAF

if IAF places more Nos on orders and accepts accelerated delivery schedule then only it is possible

if iaf places orders for 24 Mk1 / year for 5 years i.e. 120 plane and accpets deliverry for 24 / planes every year then HAL can produce them

how can HAL produce large no of Mk1 without orders ?

They already have 40mk1 orders i am not mistaken,it upto the GoI and MoD to ask IAF to increase the order,even though they had recently turned down such a request, but the aircraft is also open for export,if we go by some reports,now its upto GoI to find out its customers,and finalise a deal. And anyways ,we cant wait for some huge orders for Tmk1 before increasing the production line.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/archive/index.php/t-120949-p-3.html]Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 thread [Archive] - Page 3 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums[/url]

So far the 2268 kg internal is the official value.

The Gripen uses ~200 kg for start-up, taxi, and take-off in AB.

A similar value of ~ 200 kg is used to climb to 40000 feet in military.

(The 100 seconds value for 33000 feet is in a max power climb only and will ill manyfold the related fuel-consumption!)

For an engagement including one minute in afterburner ~250 kg is used.

The reserve on its return has to be ~400 kg.

All that does leave ~1200 kg for cruise at Mach 0,8 , the sink and approach pattern for landing. One hour at Mach 0,8 or a distance of ~850 km consumes ~1100 kg of fuel.


Under typical mission conditions that give a combat radius of ~400 km on internal fuel.


And the Indian Ministry of Defence report at the time of IOC clearly stated that the Tejas' ferry range was over 1700 km and combat range over 500 km depending on the nature and duration of actual combat.



LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.

link to MoD press release (Press Information Bureau English Releases)

SO we can safely assume that tejas mk1 has range closer to gripen c .

 

[ersakthivel]

[tweet]529148895696130048[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/529148895696130048

post saurav jha's other tweet where he calls for a comparitive trial between mirage-2000 and tejas mk1 to clear the air.

many Imported airforce chair marshals were lying through their teeth that tejas is a mere mig-21 replacement that is worse than mig-21 and a mere trainer.

In his recent article MMRCA an absolute necessity Air marshal(serving ) Arjun subramanium has equated tejas with hawk true to the MMRCA lobby within IAF.And called mirage2000 a frnt line fighter along with Su-30 MKI.

I wrote many comments rebutting this in that page. But in an astonishing piece of censorship none of my comments were carried in that piece in new indian express!!!



Will he answer Saurav jha's challenge?

 

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel, I am actually worried about incompetence of HAL. The weakest link in this chain is HAL. We need to see till the end of this year. I have a feeling the government will come down hard on HAL if it is unable to deliver.

It is very critical for HAL to keep up with promised LCA Tejas deliveries.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, I am actually worried about incompetence of HAL. The weakest link in this chain is HAL. We need to see till the end of this year. I have a feeling the government will come down hard on HAL if it is unable to deliver.

It is very critical for HAL to keep up with promised LCA Tejas deliveries.

HAL is being sapped of funds and manpower to deliver the tejas at quicker pace. MOD and IAF sat their ass on HAL request for funds for tejas and gave a piffling 450 crore and asked the HAL to scavenge the rest of 1000 crore from its internal accruals. Now there is news that there is a shortfall of about 2000 scientists in DRDO . And Modi govt has approved the DRDO proposal to ramp up its man power resources.

In the same way pranab Mukherjee as FM in an official GO asked DRDO to cap its annual scientists intake to lower level in view of austerity measures announced by the govt. At the same time they allowed IAF to splurge any number of billions for rafale purchase.

From bofors to Agusta westland we all know how congress govts function. if chinese can churn out j-10s and flanker clones in hundreds there is no reason why HAL cant do so if provided with needed manpower and financial backing along with assiured higher order numbers, which IAF does not agree.

 

[sgarg]

HAL is being sapped of funds and manpower to deliver the tejas at quicker pace. MOD and IAF sat their ass on HAL request for funds for tejas and gave a piffling 450 crore and asked the HAL to scavenge the rest of 1000 crore from its internal accruals. Now there is news that there is a shortfall of about 2000 scientists in DRDO . And Modi govt has approved the DRDO proposal to ramp up its man power resources.

In the same way pranab Mukherjee as FM in an official GO asked DRDO to cap its annual scientists intake to lower level in view of austerity measures announced by the govt. At the same time they allowed IAF to splurge any number of billions for rafale purchase.

From bofors to Agusta westland we all know how congress govts function. if chinese can churn out j-10s and flanker clones in hundreds there is no reason why HAL cant do so if provided with needed manpower and financial backing along with assiured higher order numbers, which IAF does not agree.

I do not agree with you. HAL has not done well on Su.30 project.

HAL is a problem, not a solution.

1000cr from internal investment is NOT A PROBLEM. HAL does make money from its monopoly position with GOI.

Look at Russian aviation companies who sell to Russian government at a loss.

We are actually very worried about HAL not performing at the expected level.

 

[sgarg]

There is large amount of outsourcing in LCA Tejas project. HAL can meet the targets if it really wants.