ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[p2prada]

"According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE's LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched."

source : [Hindu] http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscri...25/&prd=fline&

I know that. It doesn't mean anything. Looking at what LRDE is actually doing, making demonstrator modules means nothing.

Ultimately we will need indigenous T/R modules, but it doesn't have to be on the LCA, especially if LCA Mk2 is expected to be inducted with AESA radar.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From what it looks like, There will be two AESA, One for MK1 and other for MK2 ..

For now MK2 AESA will be ready ..

"According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE's LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched."

source : [Hindu] http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscri...25/&prd=fline&

 

[Sridhar]

^^ It must be two T/R modules .Old News seems to be from 2009

Pakistan under watch - advanced Indian Satellites Eyeballing the country [RISAT-2] - AA Me, IN

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dpi/2009/Frontline-Dec18_2009.pdf

 

[sasi]

From what it looks like, There will be two AESA, One for MK1 and other for MK2 ..

For now MK2 AESA will be ready ..

kunal sir, they are talking abt L and S band modules. Which are in production.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My comment was about Radars ..

The one HAL is working on and other is DRDO ..

 

[ersakthivel]

now only we have selected jv foreign partner. If we developed x band aesa,there is no need to jv at all.
Read above p2prada posts links.
Yes they will tell a lot,ground situation is different.

it is always ELTA and DRDO's relationship with ELTA is deep and since ELTA already has an ASEA it won't take ten years to make it here as some people have insisted here.

The same guy also posted

Those numbers are wrong for the radar.

When I quoted a fighure for MMR on tejas mk-1 as 2 sq meter tagret trackable at 120 Km .

I posted the quote from B. harry's radiance of tejas article for my quote and gave fair comparison with grippen MMR's power output and range of 120 Km for fighter sized target.

he is yet to respond.

he just posts links selectively and argues with no facts .

 

[ersakthivel]

IAF chief has also said in an article that he was impressed with ASEA radar modules developed by LRDE and prefers it for future fighter radar upgrades over anything foreign.

So the development partners are for miniaturizing of critical parts that too with the tech they already they have.


not for totally new ASEA radar development program.

So no reason for ten year development time saying the french did that it ten years and the russians did that in ten years.

They did it all on their own.we are doing it with a partner who already has the miniaturization tech needed.

 

[ersakthivel]

The site : http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2013/TF_June_2013_WEB.pdf , page 9 of 16, provides a good insight.

If this report was already written in june 2013, then AESA radar should be ready.
When I say ready, whatever is described , should be designed and tested i.e. practifally working . and certified.

If indeed DRDO claims that AESA is ready, then what prevents the AESA to be tested now , rather than wait for tejas mark 2 ?

few things come to my mind
(1) either DRDO is overstating and tomtomming merely theory and no success demo. And thus not a certified product.
or
(2) DRDO is being extremely cautious and hence willing to wait.
or
(3) DRDO is already testing it with tejas and is keeping it secret.

experts, pls clarify this.

looking for a developmental partner who already has the tech to miniaturize critical parts is what DRDO says.

it is not like the blind know nothing JV with Sukhoi for FGFA to take ten or twenty years.


ADA chief however did not make the induction of mk-2 conditional on ASEA radar. he said if available they will fit it straight away or if it is not available they will fit it in next upgrades.

 

[ersakthivel]

According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE's LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched. Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to India's Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091218262510200.htm&date=fl2625/&prd=fline&

The long range ASEA i.e the bands other than X band are already approved for production by CEMILAC and a production agency ASTRA microwave already identified..

SO the two modules launched that are yet to be certified may probably X band for tejas as B.V. Ramesh has said.

if not what is the purpose of the two modules of ASEA launched?

 

[ersakthivel]

We don't have any X band array for fighters. We are waiting for the Israelis to provide the technology rather than us wasting time developing one as of today. We will develop our own eventually.

There are many companies which have made fighter based X band modules, but making one doesn't mean it will clear requirements. Even antennas have their own quality configurations.

Let me give you a very basic example using computer configs,
Intel Celeron 566 MHz
128 MB SD RAM
15 GB HDD

vs

Intel Core i7 3.4GHz
32 GB DDR4 SDRAM
2TB HDD

Can these two configs be compared? So, it is not necessary that we are capable of building antennas that are as sensitive as what IAF really need. Just building AESA modules doesn't mean parity with the west.

This is one of the parameters that determines quality of an antenna.

And this,

Without knowing these, the effective difference between our antennas and antennas from the west could be the same as the desktop configs I gave above.

Then there is manufacturing and that's a whole different ballgame.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2013/TF_June_2013_WEB.pdf

The link also clearly states that DRDO has already finished L and S band ASEA radar and it is in production.

So they too may know this formula is my idea.

And the following link also clarifies that L and S band ASEA radars are in production with Astra Microwave as production agency.

So the two modules launched must be x band

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091218262510200.htm&date=fl2625/&prd=fline&

According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE's LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched. Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to India's Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.

I posted a detailed comparison with grippen's max 8.5 Kw max out put radars which has 120 km tracking range for fighter sized target along with

tejas mk-1's MMR with a 10.5 Kw max power output at 10 percent cycle with a tracking range of 120 km for 2 sq meter target.

You replied that those figures for tejas mk-1 is wrong.

So before diving into developmental time frame of tejas mk-2's ASEA radar, which you argued with link,

Can you give any source for tejas mk-1's MMR radar tracking range for fighter sized target?

 

[ersakthivel]

Let me give you a very basic example using computer configs,
Intel Celeron 566 MHz
128 MB SD RAM
15 GB HDD

vs

Intel Core i7 3.4GHz
32 GB DDR4 SDRAM
2TB HDD

this kind of comparisons is downright stupid without knowing what is the config of western asea radar and what is the config of DRDO developed ASEA radar.

people who don't even know the radar tracking range of tejas mk-1 with any reasonable source are giving such irrelevant kiddy comparison .

 

[ersakthivel]

where is the technocrat, ran away with tails in between legs as usual?

 

[rahulrds1]

pls tell me quote the x band aesa from link.

I think meaning of "Also" is known to all.

source: http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2013/TF_June_2013_WEB.pdf

page-9
[pdf]http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2013/TF_June_2013_WEB.pdf[/pdf]

+ "According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE's LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched."

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091218262510200.htm&date=fl2625/&prd=fline&

 

[dvdiyen]

@ rahulrds1

I have only few things to point out on your post.
1. The antenna elements are fine for array beamsteering but not for AESA.
2. I have developed many of these arrays myself but these are for PESA Radar (Not these shown. I do not work for DRDO)
3. The DBF system shown is just a prototype its not a digital DBF

I cannot comment on the present status of the AESA radar.

 

[rahulrds1]

@dvdiyen

Good to have, in this topic a professional in DFI,...appreciate you inputs.

AESA present status covered in 'only' on page No.9, under the heading/topic- "TRANSMIT/RECEIVE MODULES", what you mentioned are other system updates(page No. 10,11).

 

[ersakthivel]

The PM has warned against expensive foreign arms buys considering the state of the indian economy and rupee.

Buying at home | Business Standard

Addressing the Combined Commanders' Conference recently, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh bluntly warned the Indian military that the growth slowdown would lead to curbs on new purchases. He said, "While we must take into account the capabilities of our adversaries, we have to plan our long-term acquisition on the assumption of limited resource availability." This is an important and timely warning. It is certainly clear that the military's insistence on foreign purchases has led to expectations that are unaffordable. Consider just the Indian Air Force (IAF): it is understrength at the moment, with only 36 out of 39.5 fighter squadrons ready. Further depletions to the number of squadrons are likely when various ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s are removed from service in the next few years. But the IAF, in order to make up the deficit, has a shopping list that might total $100 billion (approximately Rs 6 lakh crore) in the next 10 to 15 years. This is clearly unaffordable. The army is in a similar position.

However, the unfortunate fact is that the civilians at the defence ministry have not controlled the free-spending instincts of the military and warned them against the idea of expensive foreign purchases. The prime minister urged "the defence ministry and the armed forces, as also the DRDO [Defence Research and Development Organisation], to build on this experience and urgently review the different Task Force reports that our government has initiated with a view to achieving a higher index of indigenous capability in military inventory production". This admonition is overdue. Indigenisation is the only way out. It is worth noting that this dovetails with a time when the rupee is weakening, which means that imports have become more expensive; and when the government has woken up to the crisis in Indian manufacturing and is pushing various incentives for investment in the sector, particularly in high-tech enterprises. Military development has historically, across countries and decades, created clusters of excellence in manufacturing and research that are exactly the kind of thing that New Delhi's policies are supposed to make happen. Thus, working with the private sector to increase defence production in India satisfies not just defence but also economic imperatives.

Buying 300 or tejas mk-2 along with a couple of squadrons of Super Su-30 MKI (whose most parts are already produced here in india with fullTOT including engines) ,in place of 120 RAFALEs for the same price will give a much better air defense capacity for IAF.

but IAF will order only 80 odd mk-2s .Why?

In the same way IA could easily have ordered 500 or so Arjun mk-1s which are battle ready. Bit it has ordered 250 odd T-90s in which crew men can not stand the shearing heat of indian summer and faint .

Both of these are heavy forex draining deals that will actually end up harming India's defense capabilities in respective fields besides pushing the rupee further down the depths.

 

[mehrotraprince]

The PM has warned against expensive foreign arms buys considering the state of the indian economy and rupee.

Buying at home | Business Standard



Buying 300 or tejas mk-2 along with a couple of squadrons of Super Su-30 MKI (whose most parts are already produced here in india with fullTOT including engines) ,in place of 120 RAFALEs for the same price will give a much better air defense capacity for IAF.

but IAF will order only 80 odd mk-2s .Why?

In the same way IA could easily have ordered 500 or so Arjun mk-1s which are battle ready. Bit it has ordered 250 odd T-90s in which crew men can not stand the shearing heat of indian summer and faint .

Both of these are heavy forex draining deals that will actually end up harming India's defense capabilities in respective fields besides pushing the rupee further down the depths.

We only produce non critical parts of Engine, Russia never transferred full TOT of engines nor will they do it in near future.....no one sell there golden egg laying goose. We are still importing engines from Russia and will do so in near future.

Russia's Ufa-based engine maker will deliver the first 10 of 920 AL-31FP engines for the Su-30MKI Flanker-H to India before the end of March, the manufacturer said on Friday.

Russia to Deliver First 10 Fighter Engines to India by April | World | RIA Novosti

Russia to deliver 10 Sukhoi engines to India this month - Indian Armed Forces - Zimbio

 

[ersakthivel]

We only produce non critical parts of Engine, Russia never transferred full TOT of engines nor will they do it in near future.....no one sell there golden egg laying goose. We are still importing engines from Russia and will do so in near future.



Russia to Deliver First 10 Fighter Engines to India by April | World | RIA Novosti

Russia to deliver 10 Sukhoi engines to India this month - Indian Armed Forces - Zimbio

Ofcourse it is not fair to expect the russians to give SCB, BLISK and other core hot section tech .
No one in his right mind will do that.
All other non core components will be made here in HAL koraput assembly.

it does not really matter as we are set to have a developmental partner for K-10 effort we can apply any SCB tech and thermal coating tech along with hot section BLISK tech developed in that venture for the AL-31 and make it totally indigenous whether the russians agree to it or not.

we will also be adding brahmos and astra missiles to Su-30 MKI.

We have applied composite tech developed for tejas in SU-30 MKi airframe in the first totally local produced airframe itself so the engine tech can follow the same way with no bleeding royalty costs unlike the RAFALE where the french are refusing to even consider HAL fit for TOT .

the entire avionics (which accounts to 30 percent of the RAAFLE cost )of Su-30 MKI is also ours with no royalty to russians. Also we can upgrade them with our own avionics and asea radar tech produced for AMCA and tejas mk-2 program.

that's why for the money spent through out the lifecycle ,

we can have many more Su-30 MKis and tejas mk-2 combo for the same money spent on RAFALE. So it effectively means doubling our fighting strength for the same cost.

As time goes by this will make our Su-30 MKI fleet forex neutral as we will be producing most of the components in a decade with tech developed for K-10 engines and AMCA fighter.

you can judge the maturity level reached on Su-30 MKI by the russian order of 64 radar computers, mission computers , weapon store software and some other avionics set for their 64 Su-30 SM version from HAL!!!!

We can also do upgrades of foreign airforce flanker fleets in Asis with active russian assistance.

At the end of the day as time goes by Su-30 MKI should become forex neutral with local tech making up a large part of it liberating us from costly lifecycle maintenance cost which is twice the actual unit cost !!!!!

Will that happen for RAFALE. No. because we are just buying 126 with an enormous budget under very limited TOT.

 

[p2prada]

We only produce non critical parts of Engine, Russia never transferred full TOT of engines nor will they do it in near future.....no one sell there golden egg laying goose. We are still importing engines from Russia and will do so in near future.



Russia to Deliver First 10 Fighter Engines to India by April | World | RIA Novosti

Russia to deliver 10 Sukhoi engines to India this month - Indian Armed Forces - Zimbio

Oh, boy, I am tired of repeating this over and over and over again.

Please Google the definition of 100% and please research what it means when they say the engine is manufactured in India from the "raw material stage." Yeah, they transferred everything. Our first indigenously made engine was done in 2010 without any Russian involvement in any stage except supplying raw materials. Even the SCBs were grown in India. They supply raw materials because we negotiated a contract where we will accept raw materials for production only from Russian companies. Quality assurance. In case we want to make spare parts, we will use our own raw materials from our own companies. So, in case some blades decided to crack, we will replace them with our engine blades made from scratch with our own materials. Basically, today, the entire aircraft except for ejection seats and landing gear is made from scratch in India.

The article is wrong anyway. The manufacturing of 920 engines began a decade ago and is set to end in 2017, not 2022. It is possible the article is talking about new engines for the Super MKI project or could just be bad reporting with outdated news.

 

[rvjpheonix]

Oh, boy, I am tired of repeating this over and over and over again.

Please Google the definition of 100% and please research what it means when they say the engine is manufactured in India from the "raw material stage." Yeah, they transferred everything. Our first indigenously made engine was done in 2010 without any Russian involvement in any stage except supplying raw materials. Even the SCBs were grown in India. They supply raw materials because we negotiated a contract where we will accept raw materials for production only from Russian companies. Quality assurance. In case we want to make spare parts, we will use our own raw materials from our own companies. So, in case some blades decided to crack, we will replace them with our engine blades made from scratch with our own materials. Basically, today, the entire aircraft except for ejection seats and landing gear is made from scratch in India.

The article is wrong anyway. The manufacturing of 920 engines began a decade ago and is set to end in 2017, not 2022. It is possible the article is talking about new engines for the Super MKI project or could just be bad reporting with outdated news.

then what stops us from using the same SCB tech on the kaveri and raising the core temperatures? Does ToT mean that we can use this tech only on the said product?