ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Mariner HK]

OMG !

Lca-Tejas Production refusing to take off??
Published April 2, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: VINAYAK SHETTY FOR T3 / IDRW.ORG


While inaugurating the 37th Directors' Conference of DRDO Defence Minister AK Antony has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) not to extend the date of final operational clearance of indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft beyond 2014. Is Defence Minister AK Antony hinting that the Project will be delayed again and another deadline will be missed?


It was on 31st March 2013, that LSP-8 made it first flight, HAL in media reports have informed that High speed taxi trials of the aircrafts were avoided since flight crew were confident on the aircraft, but people familiar with workings of the HAL, informed us that it was done to avoiding getting slammed by MOD and Auditor general in failure of HAL to deliver single Tejas aircraft for 2012-13 financial year. Since last aircraft which took to air (LSP-7) was also in last March.



Sources have told idrw.org that HAL has done similar stunts even with Hawk AJTs which were delivered to IAF without carrying out proper tests of equipments in past to meet year end deadlines. SP-1 which will be Serial production aircraft and will be used by Indian air force to carry out it own user trials which will be delivered by end of this year, but SP-1 has already suffered delays due to problems which surfaced in earlier aircrafts of fuel leaks and changes which need to be carried out on ejections systems which grounded whole fleet for more than 3 months.



DRDO for first time voiced concerns of Tejas Production line, terming it a 3rd Generation production line which HAL has been using to manufacture a 4th Generation fighter aircraft. Recent media reports have also raised concerns about the quality of the Tejas manufactured by the HAL. IAF had first placed orders for 8 LSP Tejas aircraft in 2003, Initially HAL failed to setup a production line for Tejas aircrafts which delayed the whole program by three years and it took HAL few more years to deliver 7 aircrafts (LSP-6 not delivered yet).



HAL has a firm orders for 40 Tejas MK-1 aircrafts from IAF, which were split orders of 20 a batch, first Batch (SP-1 to SP-20) will be based on IOC configuration and the second batch (SP-21 to SP-40) will be based on FOC configuration, but achieving FOC for Tejas MK-1 will not be easy task, since it will have to achieve higher angle of attack (AOA) from present 22 , and also needs to fix issues related to engine which it faced in high altitude trials . But the major task will be to clear Air to Air mode for the aircraft which includes successful test of BVR and WVR missiles against simulated targets. Any delay in achieving FOC will delay production of second batch of Tejas MK-1 ordered aircraft, which will take whole delivery schedule beyond 2018.

EPIC FAIL ! DRDO says Tejas is a 3rd Gen fighter and It might take 2018 now what the heck is going on with ADA and DRDO Some one should be held responsible for it for wasting money and lots of time.The whole Generations of DRDO and ADA scientist lived and must had became COREPATHY by now.With AMCA ,UCAV,Tejas Mk2 Tejas Stealth fighter next 2 Generation of DRDO and ADA babus will live happy wealthy life.THIS IS INSANE MAN in every context

 

[Mariner HK]

We need private players in to defence projects atleast they will work for betterment of the profit company wants.100% FDI in defence

 

[p2prada]

24 degrees is the requirement, 26 degrees is what is hoped to be achieved.

No, I mean for IOC 22 deg was the target, not 20. FOC, 24 is the target. Not 26.

The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015

Anyway, check the timeline stated in the article. Kinda funny if you ask me.

 

[Twinblade]

No, I mean for IOC 22 deg was the target, not 20. FOC, 24 is the target. Not 26.

I am not aware of any such requirements for IOC, the only angle of attack requirement I have heard are for FOC. FOC minimum requirement is 24, but a target of 26 has been stated as achievable.

The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015

Anyway, check the timeline stated in the article. Kinda funny if you ask me.

Sounds legitimate

 

[rahulrds1]

What is " Angle of Attack " (AoA)



Forces that Act on Aircraft in flight

 

[amanbat11]

OMG !

Lca-Tejas Production refusing to take off??
Published April 2, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: VINAYAK SHETTY FOR T3 / IDRW.ORG


While inaugurating the 37th Directors' Conference of DRDO Defence Minister AK Antony has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) not to extend the date of final operational clearance of indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft beyond 2014. Is Defence Minister AK Antony hinting that the Project will be delayed again and another deadline will be missed?


It was on 31st March 2013, that LSP-8 made it first flight, HAL in media reports have informed that High speed taxi trials of the aircrafts were avoided since flight crew were confident on the aircraft, but people familiar with workings of the HAL, informed us that it was done to avoiding getting slammed by MOD and Auditor general in failure of HAL to deliver single Tejas aircraft for 2012-13 financial year. Since last aircraft which took to air (LSP-7) was also in last March.



Sources have told idrw.org that HAL has done similar stunts even with Hawk AJTs which were delivered to IAF without carrying out proper tests of equipments in past to meet year end deadlines. SP-1 which will be Serial production aircraft and will be used by Indian air force to carry out it own user trials which will be delivered by end of this year, but SP-1 has already suffered delays due to problems which surfaced in earlier aircrafts of fuel leaks and changes which need to be carried out on ejections systems which grounded whole fleet for more than 3 months.



DRDO for first time voiced concerns of Tejas Production line, terming it a 3rd Generation production line which HAL has been using to manufacture a 4th Generation fighter aircraft. Recent media reports have also raised concerns about the quality of the Tejas manufactured by the HAL. IAF had first placed orders for 8 LSP Tejas aircraft in 2003, Initially HAL failed to setup a production line for Tejas aircrafts which delayed the whole program by three years and it took HAL few more years to deliver 7 aircrafts (LSP-6 not delivered yet).



HAL has a firm orders for 40 Tejas MK-1 aircrafts from IAF, which were split orders of 20 a batch, first Batch (SP-1 to SP-20) will be based on IOC configuration and the second batch (SP-21 to SP-40) will be based on FOC configuration, but achieving FOC for Tejas MK-1 will not be easy task, since it will have to achieve higher angle of attack (AOA) from present 22 , and also needs to fix issues related to engine which it faced in high altitude trials . But the major task will be to clear Air to Air mode for the aircraft which includes successful test of BVR and WVR missiles against simulated targets. Any delay in achieving FOC will delay production of second batch of Tejas MK-1 ordered aircraft, which will take whole delivery schedule beyond 2018.

EPIC FAIL ! DRDO says Tejas is a 3rd Gen fighter and It might take 2018 now what the heck is going on with ADA and DRDO Some one should be held responsible for it for wasting money and lots of time.The whole Generations of DRDO and ADA scientist lived and must had became COREPATHY by now.With AMCA ,UCAV,Tejas Mk2 Tejas Stealth fighter next 2 Generation of DRDO and ADA babus will live happy wealthy life.THIS IS INSANE MAN in every context

They didn't say Tejas is 3rd gen aircraft, they said the assembly line is 3rd gen which has been used for producing 4th gen fighters.

 

[p2prada]

I am not aware of any such requirements for IOC, the only angle of attack requirement I have heard are for FOC. FOC minimum requirement is 24, but a target of 26 has been stated as achievable.

Livefist: IAF Grudgingly Accepts Tejas IOC, Wants 83 Mk-IIs
Right in the end.

Anyway, it doesn't really make a difference if IAF accepted the 20 deg figure, considering LCA will eventually demonstrate 24 deg.

 

[Defcon 1]

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2115 Test Flights successfully.(3-April-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-360,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

From

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2114 Test Flights successfully.(1-April-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-359,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

 

[ersakthivel]

OMG !

Lca-Tejas Production refusing to take off??
Published April 2, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: VINAYAK SHETTY FOR T3 / IDRW.ORG


While inaugurating the 37th Directors' Conference of DRDO Defence Minister AK Antony has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) not to extend the date of final operational clearance of indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft beyond 2014. Is Defence Minister AK Antony hinting that the Project will be delayed again and another deadline will be missed?


It was on 31st March 2013, that LSP-8 made it first flight, HAL in media reports have informed that High speed taxi trials of the aircrafts were avoided since flight crew were confident on the aircraft, but people familiar with workings of the HAL, informed us that it was done to avoiding getting slammed by MOD and Auditor general in failure of HAL to deliver single Tejas aircraft for 2012-13 financial year. Since last aircraft which took to air (LSP-7) was also in last March.



Sources have told idrw.org that HAL has done similar stunts even with Hawk AJTs which were delivered to IAF without carrying out proper tests of equipments in past to meet year end deadlines. SP-1 which will be Serial production aircraft and will be used by Indian air force to carry out it own user trials which will be delivered by end of this year, but SP-1 has already suffered delays due to problems which surfaced in earlier aircrafts of fuel leaks and changes which need to be carried out on ejections systems which grounded whole fleet for more than 3 months.



DRDO for first time voiced concerns of Tejas Production line, terming it a 3rd Generation production line which HAL has been using to manufacture a 4th Generation fighter aircraft. Recent media reports have also raised concerns about the quality of the Tejas manufactured by the HAL. IAF had first placed orders for 8 LSP Tejas aircraft in 2003, Initially HAL failed to setup a production line for Tejas aircrafts which delayed the whole program by three years and it took HAL few more years to deliver 7 aircrafts (LSP-6 not delivered yet).



HAL has a firm orders for 40 Tejas MK-1 aircrafts from IAF, which were split orders of 20 a batch, first Batch (SP-1 to SP-20) will be based on IOC configuration and the second batch (SP-21 to SP-40) will be based on FOC configuration, but achieving FOC for Tejas MK-1 will not be easy task, since it will have to achieve higher angle of attack (AOA) from present 22 , and also needs to fix issues related to engine which it faced in high altitude trials . But the major task will be to clear Air to Air mode for the aircraft which includes successful test of BVR and WVR missiles against simulated targets. Any delay in achieving FOC will delay production of second batch of Tejas MK-1 ordered aircraft, which will take whole delivery schedule beyond 2018.

EPIC FAIL ! DRDO says Tejas is a 3rd Gen fighter and It might take 2018 now what the heck is going on with ADA and DRDO Some one should be held responsible for it for wasting money and lots of time.The whole Generations of DRDO and ADA scientist lived and must had became COREPATHY by now.With AMCA ,UCAV,Tejas Mk2 Tejas Stealth fighter next 2 Generation of DRDO and ADA babus will live happy wealthy life.THIS IS INSANE MAN in every context

Most of the IDRW post you quoted is bullshit as LSp-7 and 8 are not just any other serial production aircrafts. They are to incorporate all the design changes that were made due to the more than 200 request for action proposals demanded by IAF and many minor issue like the height of pilot seat and small changes in air intake.Each of this changes has to be validated and retro fitted in all the LSPs as well along with the re arranging of fuel lines.

LSp-7 and 8 are closest to the production model means they are incorporating all the small design changes that were needed to rectify the issues that cropped up during the flight test program. So once the design is finalized it is back to regular serial production line with faster productions. But the reporter has conveniently ignored all these details and projecting as if the HAL has managed only one LSp in the whole year.So saying this is a stunt and that is a stunt, is just juvenile gloating and breast beating to show the reporter's own superiority over the others as if he has found out the bigger truth after years of investigative journalism.In reality he is piecing together a series of unrelated events and faking it as a great blunder on the part of HAL.

It will be interesting if the reporter reveals what were the issues faced by the GE engine during high altitude tests.If there is any truth in it , and to rectify it an aux air intake aka Jaguar was added ,then would have taken a certain amount of time and automatically led to delay in production of LSp-8, which is what a flight test program is all about.

Also there is sea of difference between limited serial production with design changes from flight test program being implemented as and when the need arise , with design constantly changing ,without knowing whether there will be more orders

and

full fledged serial production where time , energy and money will be invested with set target dates in mind knowing full well they have a certain number of fighters to produce with design being finally freeze.

It is quite possible that older production line or methods were used for LSPs because it will be futile to create a full fledged modern production line for just 8 LSPs with their designs being changed constantly through out the flight program.Now with design freeze they will modernize the production line and methods with greater accuracy and go for quality end product.
So please stop meaningless rants like DRDO scientists and ADA scientists have become crorepathies as a result of this delay. How can they become millionaires by delaying tejas?In a complex program like fighter aircraft it is quite common to have delays,
Now with Dassault washing it's hands of HAL for any responsibility for the 108 RAFALE's to be produced by HAl, we can very well see the attitude of MNCs and ADA. Come what may ADA will work with HAL to produce Tejas. But no MNC will do that.

 

[ersakthivel]

Also Tejas will still retain significant rudder authority even at 30 deg AOA as it's design intended it to be and checked in wind tunnel. But the 24-26 deg is combat usable normal upper limit for AOA. If you ask if FCS will allow the pilot to overshoot it, the answer is possibly yes , but within a limited flight profile to avoid stalling as it is normal in all other fighters. Most of the air show cobras and extreme maneuvers are classified as post stall or near stall maneuvers with very restricted flight profile meaning the fighter won't be able to perform most of it's combat duties at these AOAs. In clean config it may just recover from stall at these very high AOAs.that's all.

 

[ersakthivel]

Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas Testing - Frontier India

TD-2
The air intake duct was redesigned for this aircraft to make it easy to manufacture. Some weight reduction was also attempted which resulted in a weight saving of 110 kg. The airframe weighed 6,670 kg when manufactured.

PV-1
Major weight reduction was attempted during the manufacture of this aircraft's airframe. Carbon fibre composites were extensively used in the fuselage taking the overall composite content to 45 per cent by weight and 95 per cent by surface area. The part count, which was 10,000 for TD-1's airframe, was reduced to 7,000 in this case. The airframe weighed 6,430kg when complete which meant the weight reduction exercise had reduced 350kg of weight, a praise worthy achievement.

At the time of writing(February 8, 2005) the flight envelope has been expanded to Mach 1.4,1150 kmph CAS,15 km altitude, +4.5 g, and an angle of attack of 23.

So 23 deg AOA achieved in 2005 itself according to Philip Rajkumar's 2005 article in Aerospace and Marine international journal.

 

[vram]

So please stop meaningless rants like DRDO scientists and ADA scientists have become crorepathies as a result of this delay. How can they become millionaires by delaying tejas?In a complex program like fighter aircraft it is quite common to have delays,

Agree with you . Outright cheap journalism for trying to sensationalize unrelated Item. THIS WAS MY CONCERN AS WELL THAT I EARLIER MENTIONED. WE WILL NOW SEE MORE AND MORE ATTEMPTS TO THROW MUD AT THE PROGRAM. AS THEY HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.
LOL!! till now the natasha agents where shouting that the plane itself was only mig21 ++ an hence barely better than a third generation aircraft . NOW they are saying that the plane is 4th gen( Probably dont have any cooked up any facts to complain about left) but that the assembly line is 3rd gen. What the heck does that mean.
THe LSP-8 which is the most advanced Tejas aircraft was produced in this existing line only. Having worked in a Auto major company I can tell you this for a fact -----
THERE IS NOTHING CALLED AS GENERATION CONCEPT IN ASSEMBLY LINES . The production revolves around the concepts of EFFICIENCY, TOOLING, DEFECT REDUCTION, QUALITY and AUTOMATION.
1.)Here Automation and tooling are the two main factory contributing to the modernity and sophistication of the end product. Clearly HAL has this setup else they would never have been able to create the LSP's in the first place. Common sense this is actually.
2.)Now they have to concentrate on the Efficiency and Quality of the supply chain. Here we have the methodologies of Kaizan and Six Sigma that can contribute in helping streamline and achieve the targets without compromising on the critical metrics. HAL should be currently concentrating on this phase.
3.)Now the above two phase when implemented will automatically lead to defect reduction.

No company in this world will setup tooling and machinery for assembly lines for a end product that has not even come out of design phase. That is simply not how manufacturing works They have got the limited scale production unit running now for getting the LSP's out. The main production roll out phase starts now only.

Not every person writing articles out there can have knowledge on the manufacturing industry BUT throwing mud based on rumours and outright wrong understanding of ground situation is really pathetic showing they are not even interested in doing basic homework on your subject before writing. THe writer has confused design phase problems and linked it to SP-1 to prove manufacturing is slow ROLF what crap!!!!!!

Now with Dassault washing it's hands of HAL for any responsibility for the 108 RAFALE's to be produced by HAl, we can very well see the attitude of MNCs and ADA. Come what may ADA will work with HAL to produce Tejas. But no MNC will do that.

ACTUALLY i agree to Dassault in this one. When you have a partner co sharing production for a product even if its from supplied part or CKD's . the quality or reliabity of the end product cannot be guaranteed by orginator company. This is common across the industry. Suprising that India is asking for this as Dasault can have no control over HAL manufacturing line.

 

[prestigiousindian]

Wow that was great so do u mean tat HAL does have automation parts manufacture ?? SO HAL wil deliver all 80 in few years ?? Can happen in Wet dreams...

 

[vram]

Wow that was great so do u mean tat HAL does have automation parts manufacture ?? SO HAL wil deliver all 80 in few years ?? Can happen in Wet dreams...

If you had actually bothered to read my reply and the news article you would have understood that I never mentioned a number or production rate anywhere..
That is simply because the product line has not yet come into full steam yet Also HAL does not produce every single moving part in the vehicle. If they attempted they will never produce anything for a hundred years. HAL simply dont have the budget or skillset for managing and production of all components In house. That is where the Supply Chain and quality management of vendors comes into the picture.
For eg...In a car manufactured by FORD ...the Windshield comes from Saint Gobain the plastic components come from any suitable local industry the electronic come prob from samsung/Siemens etc..etc... FORD build the basic stuff sents out requirements for sharing the design and expects the besst low cost vendor to produce it in return,
I expect that something similair is what happens here as well. As long as the plane was in design phase it is still in Limited Production phase. Where the HAL does actually manufature or obtains parts off the shelf or custom made. They will have partner vendors doing custom made component according to changes in design whenever required and the vendors in turn will hope that the contract will come to them once the design is frozen and production comes online. THe LCA is currently in this stage.
You have to take the pains of building a complete ecosystem of vendors and supliers in the design phase itself who will in turn help in faster and streamlined execution of the product during the final production roll out. This is a kind of trust based industry. If there is no clarity on the customers ordering the end product then the supplier will not commit on doing thier own research and investment for producing good quality components requested by the integrator in the design phase ITSELF. FOR HAL if there is no contract then the govt and indirectly Us the taxpayer will take the cost that went into producing the LSP's and setting up of limited manufacturing ecosystems. But the private supplier of parts will take the complete loss.
IF LCA doesnt go into production we are shooting ourselves on a lot of fronts. NO airforce in the world has the luxury of keep on buying a product of the shelf which has existing suppliers/vendors and proven inegrator like dasault..boeing etc...The pains of setting up the Rafale manucaturing ecosystem was taken on by the french...starting with the Mirage and upgrading from there.
For the Indian industry there will definitely be problems in setting up production and getting a defect free Tejas to roll out. Nobody should discount this phase and we will definitly face all kinds of problems here. BUT NO PAIN NO GAIN. If India ever wants to have a major role in aero space industry going through this is a must.

Also my wet dreams definitely do NOT have any planes in it :cool2:

 

[Defcon 1]

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2117 Test Flights successfully.(4-April-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-361,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-154,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

From

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2115 Test Flights successfully.(3-April-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-360,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

 

[Abhi9]

Some Knowledge

I clearly noticed WING TIPS HAVE A WING TWIST IN THE LSP-8, MAY be THERE WAS RECTIFYING DONE

ADA designer's have given due consideration for the angle of attack issues, people saying that LCA performance will not be upto the par is just preposterous without the details coming out.

In this picture below you can clear see the wing twist at wing tips

here is some information about wing twist

Wing twist is an aerodynamic feature added to aircraft wings to adjust lift distribution along the wing.
Often, the purpose of lift redistribution is to ensure that the wing tip is the last part of the wing surface to stall, for example when executing a roll or steep climb; it involves twisting the wingtip a small amount downwards in relation to the rest of the wing. This ensures that the effective angle of attack is always lower at the wingtip than at the root, meaning the root will stall before the tip. This is desirable because the aircraft's flight control surfaces are often located at the wingtip, and the variable stall characteristics of a twisted wing alert the pilot to the advancing stall while still allowing the control surfaces to remain effective, meaning the pilot can usually prevent the aircraft from stalling fully before control is completely lost.
Twist that decreases the local chord's incidence from root to tip is sometimes referred to as washout. Twist that increases the local incidence from root to tip is less common and is called wash-in. The X-29 had strong wash-in to compensate for the additional root-first stalling promoted by the forward sweep.
Wing twist can also, rarely, refer to the deflection of the wing when it is made of insufficiently stiff materials; actuation of the flaps can, instead of deflecting air as intended, cause the wing itself to be deflected and is related to compressibility effects; this problem has mostly been eradicated however, with modern high-strength alloys and composites.
Wing twist is also observed in insects.

IDK much about it may be @ersakthivel can explain in more detail

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Abhi9, Gud info..

 

[EXPERT]

VIEW FROM THE COCKPIT OF HAL-TEJAS....

HAL LCA cockpit view and more - YouTube

 

[Armand2REP]

Super Hornet Double Engine Failure Raises Questions About LCA Engine

An F/A-18F Super Hornet attached to the aircraft carrier Dwight D. Eisenhower crashed Monday in the North Arabian Sea. No one was injured.

The Super Hornet encountered an engine failure at 12:20 p.m. local time, the Navy stated in a news release. The incident is under investigation.

The two members of the aircrew, from Virginia Beach-based Strike Fighter Squadron 103, ejected safely and were picked up by search and rescue swimmers from Helicopter Anti-submarine Squadron Five.

Super Hornet crashes in the Arabian Sea | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[ersakthivel]

Super Hornet Double Engine Failure Raises Questions About LCA Engine

An F/A-18F Super Hornet attached to the aircraft carrier Dwight D. Eisenhower crashed Monday in the North Arabian Sea. No one was injured.

The Super Hornet encountered an engine failure at 12:20 p.m. local time, the Navy stated in a news release. The incident is under investigation.

The two members of the aircrew, from Virginia Beach-based Strike Fighter Squadron 103, ejected safely and were picked up by search and rescue swimmers from Helicopter Anti-submarine Squadron Five.

Super Hornet crashes in the Arabian Sea | Defense News | defensenews.com

Do you know how many GE-414 and GE-404 engines that are flying?