ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[vram]

Tejas warms up for first flight amid uneasy calm

Not sure how manyof you came across this..apologies if already posted

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas LSP-8 warms up for first flight amid uneasy calm | Widespread concern over inferior build-standard quality of Tejas

Belgaum: The near-perfect production standard version of India's light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas is ready for its first flight at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) airport in Bangalore. Sources confirm to Express on Wednesday that the Flight Readiness Review Board (FRRB) has now cleared the limited series production (LSP-8) of Tejas for its flight, with a rider that it needs to undertake one more engine ground run (EGR), low-speed taxi trial (LSTT) and high-speed taxi trial (HSTT). "We are closing in and the flight is expected in the next couple of days, if there are no last-minute surprises," sources said.
The last LSP variant of Tejas is gearing up for the flight just after defence minister A K Antony recently asked its makers not to extend the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for Tejas, sighting that "there are no substitute for self-reliance." The LSP-8 is of the initial Operation Clearance (IOC) configuration and marked for the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots to undertake flight evaluation trials, along with LSP-7.
Quality concerns: Insiders associated with the project, however, say that there are many build-standard quality concerns of Tejas, all pointing towards HAL. "We have huge concerns with the inferior standards of Tejas. The aerodynamics differences of the contour surfaces are a concern. The ADA-HAL team is addressing the issue, with actual readings and predicted values telling different stories," says a senior IAF official.
The cracks in the project are becoming wide open with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) refusing to entertain any media queries on Tejas. Sources say that there's an uneasy calm prevailing in the programme, with increasing doubts being raised by various agencies over the quality of Tejas being produced by HAL.
HAL sources said that any modification introduced on the aircraft has to undergo an extensive evaluation and validation by designers and certification agencies, before the production agency can implement it. "The exercise is a time-consuming one. Accordingly, the LSP-8 is now ready to take to the skies with all the improvements introduced over the last few years," HAL sources said.
The Deputy Chief of Air Staff is reviewing the programme in Bangalore on Thursday with the heads of all stakeholders, including HAL and ADA, to be present.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The World isn't a Rainbow either, One has to fight to earn his own respect..

I dont want any political bs here, though unfortunate it is that we Indian in our own country had to face such kinds of issues..

I remember @ersakthivel post where he put a link about how ADA personal were treated and given snake infested / garbage workplace..

And we need to all agree that the armed forces are no saints.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

India: Tejas must be operational by 2014

BANGALORE, India, March 29 (UPI) -- Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony warned the government's defense businesses to make sure the long-awaited Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready no later than 2014.

Antony's warning was part of a general statement during his opening presentation to the 37th Directors Conference at the Defense Research and Development Organization.

Antony urged government-run agencies -- in particular the DRDO -- to speed up their work.

It was DRDO Chief V.K. Saraswat who set the date, he said, when the Tejas should pass final operational clearance for induction into the air force.

Antony praised the completed projects including the Agni-5 and the BrahMos missile systems as examples of good indigenous research and development.

But DRDO scientists should focus on priority areas where the ultimate test of success of the organization, its products and services lies in satisfaction of end-users, India's armed forces, he said.

"The successes shouldn't make us complacent and unfinished projects, which are in the pipeline for a very long time, should be concluded at the earliest," Antony said.

To achieve this, the DRDO remains essential for development of the country's defense manufacturing sector, he said.

"If our indigenization goals are to be realized, DRDO will have to take the lead in this regard," Antony said. "Other stakeholders, for instance the (military) services, the Ministry of Defense and private industry in the defense sector, must cooperate to ensure quick, honest and transparent acceptance of the systems."

The single-engine, single-pilot Tejas, being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., was given the green light by the government in 1983 but it wasn't until 1988 that more concrete designs were on the drawing board.

Delays ensued, including issues over the design and performance of the intended Kaveri engine, a DRDO partnership deal with Snecma of France.

A Tejas prototype eventually flew for the first time in January 2001 -- but with a U.S.-made General Electric F-404 engine as a stop-gap.

A long-term deal with GE for 99 engines -- likely the upgraded 414 -- worth $800 million was signed this year because of further delays to development of the Kaveri engine. GE won over Eurojet's EJ-200 engine, a report by the Deccan Herald newspaper said.

Last month, the DRDO confirmed it had abandoned plans to jointly develop and produce the Kaveri military aircraft engine solely with Snecma, a report by AIN Online news said.

"We still need an overseas partner but it won't be Snecma on a single-vendor basis," C.P. Ramanarayanan, director of the DRDO's Gas Turbine Research Establishment, said. "We will select our partner through competitive bidding."

Read more: Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony warns on Light Combat Aircraft - UPI.com

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Indirectly this was also a warning for HAL ..

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BREAKING NEWS: EPIC FAIL!!! Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRD

Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRDO
Published March 20, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: PIB PR


It is a fact that there has been some delay in completion of project "Development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas". The aircraft is being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).The project `Development of LCA` was sanctioned in August 1983. Project Definition Phase (PDP) of LCA was completed in 1988. In 1990, a decision was taken to undertake LCA development in two phases. In the first phase to build 02 Technology Demonstrators (TDs) along with development of critical technologies including Multi Mode Radar (MMR) and in the second phase to build Prototype Vehicles, integrate weapons, sensors, and flight testing leading to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC).



Details of Phase-I and Phase-II of LCA development is given below:-

Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I of LCA

Date of Sanction : June 1993

Original Date of Completion : June 1998

Actual Date of Completion : March 2004

Overall objectives of Phase-I was achieved with completion of 202 flight tests (123 hrs : 49 min) on 03 LCAs).

Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-II of LCA

Date of Sanction : November 2001

Original Date of Completion : December 2008

Revised Date of Completion : March 2015

Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was achieved in January 2011 and Full Operational Clearance is likely to be achieved in December 2014.

The LCA project, which though got delayed initially, is currently progressing on a fast track and is working on aggressive time schedules.

Productionisation of LCA is already going on. First series production aircraft is likely to be ready by the end of 2013. Indian Air Force has already placed order for 20 LCA in IOC configuration and another of 20 LCA in FOC configuration.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Motilal Vorain Rajya Sabha today.​

Why no one held responsible for putting india's security and life of mig 21 and mig series pilot's life at risk?Its worst than terrorism ....

First of all who is responsible for inducting pilot killing Mig-21s into IAF? When same vintage Mirage-2000 has a much better operational safety record why is that the migs and Sukhois are crashing forever?Why no IAF types are presenting any papers in seminars about this?

Recently a pair of Sukhois crashed due to FCS faults and many sukhois are returning to base with only one engine functioning. What is the sortie rate of Sukhoi in IAF and in the event of war where the wear and tear will be about ten times the peace time operations with much riskier flying profile , how will these issues affect the deployment and performance of the fighter? It is 20 years since the sukhoi deal is signed.Why issues like these were not sorted out earlier?

If people including A.K.Antony constantly criticize tejas for seven years delay that too for the first fighter project why problems of platforms like Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-29 and Sukhois that are from established design houses couldn't be sorted out even after decades of introduction? A hundred mig-27s were grounded due to unresolvable engine issues, why can't HAL and IAF with active russian help couldn't sort out the problems on Mig-27s after decades of induction while Mirage is still good enough to go for another 25 years.

facts are facts. Compared to the mountains of quality and reliability problems facing the entire IAF fleet of fighters the problems faced by Tejas is just a teething troubles due to the poor quality of manufacturing done at HAl for LSP series. Typical of Indian colonial mindset problems that has nothing to do with the design of tejas are being blown out of proportion while very real pilot safety issues facing the other fighters of IAF are being brushed under the carpet.

Much older designs like Hawks are still being produced serviced and maintained. Why is that Mig-21s cannot repeat this after four decades of induction in IAF? Why are people linking the problems of the poorly designed Mig-21s to the delays in Tejas?


Every one knows that tejas was designed with all the tech that are present in the most modern 4.5th gen fighters of today like high composite contents , lower clean config RCS, Fully unstable fly by wire digital FCS, the ability to fire any available long range BVR in the market. And it's FCS development partner has pulled out of the project after the Indian nuclear tests.

And the user IAf has progressively increased the performance specs to suit the modern day.And the time consuming two TDs first and PVs and LSPs later route was chosen to avoid the bickering between the various agencies involved in the project.So it is not unforeseen that some amount of delays are to be expected.

In the same way if Mig-29s and SUkhois start crashing out of the skies after a 2020 , will they link it to the delays in AMCA?What is the logic behind this?

 

[p2prada]

These are the people who actually stopped all testing last march because of a cockpit canopy height issue.

Yeah, because if the pilot tried ejecting, his skull would crack and splatter all over the canopy. It was a danger to our test pilots too. If such a thing happened, apart from the usual criticism, we would be a laughing stock of the whole world for allowing it to happen.

The cracks in the project are becoming wide open with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) refusing to entertain any media
queries on Tejas.

I wonder why...

 

[ersakthivel]

Every one knew about the attitude of IAf towards Tejas in the initial years, a serving IAf chief refused to even visit one of the prototypes in the hanger during a stopover at the airport. And the IAF couldn't even foresee a much higher weight higher launching stress longer range BVRs will be available in future, that has to be fitted on Tejas in future. They raised this requirement belatedly i after the TDs flew.

The wings were later redesigned and it led to further longer delays and higher empty weight than the designed weight. All this extra weight had their own cumulative effect leading to much more detailed redesign of other systems and FCs to cope up with it , As per the then GTRE director's statement this was the main reason for the unsuitability of kaveri k-9 to be deployed in tejas.

And the initial ASR given by the IAF for tejas is top speed of mach 1.5 and an STR of 17 deg along with one ton lesser empty weight( based on the lower weight,lower launching stress on the wing , lower range BVrs ) , with no mention of AOA.
now the design specs of tejas mk-1 is top speed of mach 1.8. The STR has already exceeded 17 deg(360 deg/20 seconds it took for LCA teajs took to complete in the aeroindia 2013 , gives a figure of 18 deg according to rough estimate even with limited opening of the flight envelope). The AOA achieved till now is 22 deg, FOC target is 24 deg.And it can go upto 26 degs in future.
This compares well with the actual usable AOA of many modern fighters.

All these upgrades demanded on Tejas is detailed in TEER's post in the following keypublishing link in reply to rants of the naysayers there.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120092&page=3

 

[ersakthivel]

The problem of height of the pilot more than the pilot's seat surfaced only after the new Helmet mounted displays were introduced later. So no test pilot was in danger through out the ten year flight test program as some people are falsely trying to make out here.

compared to the pilot skull opening Mig-21s and Mig-27s which are faultily designed and unserviceable platforms that were routinely doing pilot skull opening duty in IAF a test pilot on LCA was ten times safer on TEjas PVs and LSPs .

Since the program is nearing completion you can find no paucity of IAF types and critics types to exploit any avenue to throw mud on the fighter.

ADA is refusing to entertain any media because most of the Indian defence journos are .... well less said the better......
Most of the TOI types are paid media who will continue to write shit about tejas regardless of what ADA says.Their understanding the complexities of a program like Tejas and it's profile is as good as their grasp of the profile of Katrina Kaif's profile they see on the screen.

Which agency in the world enjoy talking to this media whose only shit job is twisting quotes to suit their paymasters.look at the acrimony generated by the dumb Mig-21++ comment by even dumber IAF chief (which was never needed in the first place in an IOC ceremony) which did many rounds, while the same IAf chief saying it is just short of grippen NG when full testing is over ,a few minutes later was given a quite burial.

If anyone wants what is the real achievement of Tejas he can go to the following link and find it out in Teer's post in that page in answer to rant of the rats about LCA Tejas.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120092&page=3

 

[vram]

Yeah, because if the pilot tried ejecting, his skull would crack and splatter all over the canopy. It was a danger to our test pilots too. If such a thing happened, apart from the usual criticism, we would be a laughing stock of the whole world for allowing it to happen.



I wonder why...

Yes that is what I meant actually.This was more of a rhetorical point.
When a problem was Identified they immidaitely stopped all progress so that the issue at hand could be rectified . So do you think that a basic design problem due to materials used in the LSP's causing probable harm would have been ignored.? if that is what the IAF officer meant i mean.
I have already answered your second query in my first post itself.

 

[vram]

The problem of height of the pilot more than the pilot's seat surfaced only after the new Helmet mounted displays were introduced later. So no test pilot was in danger through out the ten year flight test program as some people are falsely trying to make out here.

compared to the pilot skull opening Mig-21s and Mig-27s which are faultily designed and unserviceable platforms that were routinely doing pilot skull opening duty in IAF a test pilot on LCA was ten times safer on TEjas PVs and LSPs .

Since the program is nearing completion you can find no paucity of IAF types and critics types to exploit any avenue to throw mud on the fighter.

Exactly sir. The LCA even in its current avatar is better I feel than the old,much used and wearied air frames of the older MIG's. Please note that I am not saying that the LCA is golden bird. Just that I am wondering on what premise the new issues have been raised when most of them appear to be basic build related ones that have been there right from Tech demonstrators . I mean its the same organization that built the previous tejas. SO how come the IAF is spotting such issues only NOW?? are they saying no IAF officer has seen the bird till now....
OR are they speaking only about LSP8 which has not even flown?
Hence my frusturation with such vaguely worded rumours being dropped. I mean suddenly you have all these un named IAF sources swarming out with wink wink statements about some TRP raising disclosure which will obviously have the media circus salivating...sigh..We never learn

 

[ersakthivel]

Exactly sir. The LCA even in its current avatar is better I feel than the old,much used and wearied air frames of the older MIG's. Please note that I am not saying that the LCA is golden bird. Just that I am wondering on what premise the new issues have been raised when most of them appear to be basic build related ones that have been there right from Tech demonstrators . I mean its the same organization that built the previous tejas. SO how come the IAF is spotting such issues only NOW?? are they saying no IAF officer has seen the bird till now....
OR are they speaking only about LSP8 which has not even flown?
Hence my frusturation with such vaguely worded rumours being dropped. I mean suddenly you have all these un named IAF sources swarming out with wink wink statements about some TRP raising disclosure which will obviously have the media circus salivating...sigh..We never learn

So what about the performance gap and build quality in the Russian fighters being built in hundreds by HAl using the same manufacturing tech, and accepted by IAF without a word , if such faults exist on tejas

 

[roma]

Re: BREAKING NEWS: EPIC FAIL!!! Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRD

Recently a pair of Sukhois crashed due to FCS faults and many sukhois are returning to base with only one engine functioning. What is the sortie rate of Sukhoi in IAF and in the event of war where the wear and tear will be about ten times the peace time operations

thanks for the very solid posts coming from yourself and Mr Kunal as well , the past couple of pages of this thread - picked up a lot from you guys

i had earlier raised a question in a related thread about LCA being designed with only one jet booster instead of two - as per most russian design

now you in a way "confirmed" that the two engine system comes in handy , given war conditions

is this gonna be a blunder in design concept or can it be saved by "somehow" having a spare engine and load it in time ( sounds more like a fairy tale than even sci-fi )

i think we have another big issue here ?

 

[p2prada]

When a problem was Identified they immidaitely stopped all progress so that the issue at hand could be rectified .

This isn't with just LCA.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/02/27/f-35-grounding-timeline-unknown/

He explained that engineers and investigators continue to inspect the F-35's engine after a defect was found in one of the engine blades.

http://defensetech.org/2013/01/29/jsf-program-points-finger-at-subcontractor-for-grounding/

"Evidence revealed a quality discrepancy from the company that produces the fueldraulics line," Joe DellaVedova, a spokesman for the F-35's Pentagon program office, said in a statement. "Stratoflex, the company that produces the line, Rolls-Royce and Pratt & Whitney have instituted corrective actions to improve their quality control processes and ensure part integrity."

You see, this isn't India specific at all.

All progress is stopped depending on the problem.

Last year ADA grounded LCA for changing the fuel line design. But they blamed the monsoon instead.

So do you think that a basic design problem due to materials used in the LSP's causing probable harm would have been ignored.? if that is what the IAF officer meant i mean.

IAF has every right to ground aircraft or refuse to take delivery if quality is not ensured. Be it intentional or accidental.

I have already answered your second query in my first post itself.

The answer you gave wasn't really the real answer, a conspiracy theory, as a matter of fact. That's because it doesn't matter what the media says, in the end the people who know what's happening will be the ones making decisions.

The media blackout has very little to do with media spinning stories.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BREAKING NEWS: EPIC FAIL!!! Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRD

thanks for the very solid posts coming from yourself and Mr Kunal as well , the past couple of pages of this thread - picked up a lot from you guys

i had earlier raised a question in a related thread about LCA being designed with only one jet booster instead of two - as per most russian design

now you in a way "confirmed" that the two engine system comes in handy , given war conditions

is this gonna be a blunder in design concept or can it be saved by "somehow" having a spare engine and load it in time ( sounds more like a fairy tale than even sci-fi )

i think we have another big issue here ?

The twin engined fighters are made for longer range with more weapon load features , You cannot expect single engined F-16 to have the same range of F-15 eagle. But there are more F-16s in service than the F-15s. In the same way the primary purpose behind tejas was not huge weapon load with longer ranges. it was designed as a nimble lesser load carrying lesser range fighter to be deployed at the border airfields with the prime motive of air defence and light ground strike to support forward troops.

if a twin engined version was developed along with the single engined one it would have given IAF an option over the very costly MMRCA deal since it would have had many common parts with Single engined ones . A twin engined fighter that could have been developed along with Single engined tejas would have been completely different from a single engined tejas but it would have been largely based on the design philosophy of tejas in specs like wing loading,aerodynamics,composites, fly by wire FCS ITR and many other features.And this common design philosophy could have reduced a lot of time required to make a stand alone twin engined fighter.

 

[roma]

Re: BREAKING NEWS: EPIC FAIL!!! Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRD

if a twin engined version was developed along with the single engined one it would have given IAF an option over the very costly MMRCA deal since it would have had many common parts with Single engined ones . A twin engined fighter that could have been developed along with Single engined tejas would have been completely different from a single engined tejas but it would have been largely based on the design philosophy of tejas in specs like wing loading,aerodynamics,composites, fly by wire FCS ITR and many other features.And this common design philosophy could have reduced a lot of time required to make a stand alone twin engined fighter.

just what i had been thinking all along ! - no i dont claim to be a aero-engineer nor completely understand all the mechanical specs ( some i do )

but the lack of creative or critical thinking at the earliest design concept stage - seems to me - severely lacking - could do with some arty types who must have been excluded - short on imagination

feel sorry for tejas - a valiant try and still a pretty good one for a first attempt - but we could have leap-frogged and gained from others experiences - it seems we didnt and chose a narrow view instead ?

addendum;- upon further reflecting i thin your idea of "options" had purt it a better way - we could have started with a basic LCa and then had an option to upgrade - keeping many element in common only upgrading some aspects -making it easy on manufacturing and parts - i think your option concept should have been the way :thumb:

were your ideas shunted out at the design stage ? hmmmmm .....

 

[ersakthivel]

The kind of transparency that is being demanded on ADA on a prototype fighter called LSP-8 was never demanded over the legion of quality issues that hobble the entire IAf fleet. So why a different standard is being demanded on ADA?

Also ADA has indicated that whether it be lightning arrester or butting of fuel lines , the fault lies with HAL's poor quality of sub assemblies, not because of bad design by itself.ADA disclosed that only after the filghts resumed.Why? Because there is no point in spilling bad blood in public unlike the bud headed IAF types who post comments like 3 legged Cheetah and MIG-21 ++ needlessly in public .

ADA has to ultimately work with HAL to finish any fighter it wants operationlized. So they would never want to sour this relation ship by quote twisting media worth for nothing.ADA is no bollywood film promoting agency to build up expectations over a project.

If the quality of Lightning arrester is poor , how could it resume flight tests in monsoon? ADA has already indicated that along with fuel lines a host of other issue were also resolved while the fleet was grounded.it did not conceal anything. it just delayed opening a running feud with HAl.

IAf routinely grounds entire fleets of Russian fighters whenever there were grave issues. All the sukhois flying with the IAf have grave issues like bugs in the FCS, engine shaft failures that are being raised at the highest political level during MMS-putin meet.They routinely return to the bases with one failed engines as per some open source news reports.but It never refused delivery of any fighter type from the russians though even if it involves grave risk to pilots .

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BREAKING NEWS: EPIC FAIL!!! Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRD

just what i had been thinking all along ! - no i dont claim to be a aero-engineer nor completely understand all the mechanical specs ( some i do )

but the lack of creative or critical thinking at the earliest design concept stage - seems to me - severely lacking - could do with some arty types who must have been excluded - short on imagination

feel sorry for tejas - a valiant try and still a pretty good one for a first attempt - but we could have leap-frogged and gained from others experiences - it seems we didnt and chose a narrow view instead ?

addendum;- upon further reflecting i thin your idea of "options" had purt it a better way - we could have started with a basic LCa and then had an option to upgrade - keeping many element in common only upgrading some aspects -making it easy on manufacturing and parts - i think your option concept should have been the way :thumb:

were your ideas shunted out at the design stage ? hmmmmm .....

Well tejas will remain modern as long as Typhoon , RAFALE and grippen NG remains relevant. I don't know when this circus called 5th gen stealths is going to wound up considering the leapfrogging detections tech eating away at the so called stealth aspect bit by bit.

There are reports that WIP based IRST sensor can detect and track any 5th gen from 80 nautical miles even with today's tech if such systems are perfected and employed in any 4th gen including tejas the 5th gens are no longer going to be super stars.

If in a decade's time detection tech catches up with 5th gens then LCA will be as good as any other fighter type intended for the role it is designed.

So you don't need to be sorry about it.The creative thinking regarding tech was there at the time of tejas conception. Highest percentage of composites , fully digital fly by wire tech based on unstable aerodynamic flight profile, efforts at lowering clean config RCS as less as possible,high TWR,Higher ITR which is very important in missile evading,And open electronics architechture to add any systm, more modern cockpit displays and avionics.

Infact you cannot find all the attributes in combination even in any of the soviet era fighters including Sukhoi-30 MKi that is being operated by IAf.

If you look at the cockpit display of Mig-29 you can count many dials than the stars in the sky.Despite being twin engined the Mig-29 is very short ranged fighter like Tejas as well with only lighter loads.And Mig-29 cockpit is being upgraded with new avionics as well.

If sukhoi has advantages with higher STR and ITR with TWR then it's RCS ismany times that Tejas and it has no composite contents and RCS reduction efforts as well. So it can be picked up enemy radar at more than twice the distance of Tejas being picked up.

Mirage-2000 has lower TWR than tejas , even the modernization of old Mirages cost as much as a brand new tejas.Already test pilots are commenting Tejas is better than Mirages .

But it doesnot take away anything from the combat performance of the above mentioned fighters. because air combat is a strategy of using your air assets according to it's strengths and weakness. it is not candy shop to expect all specs in a single fighter.

.If mig-29 is shorter in range it has the highest ITR and STR and most agile in dogfights.If Sukhoi has bigger RCS it has a very high weapon load with the integration of Brahmos and higher weight longer range air to air missiles , it will dominate the indian ocean. If the mirage has lower TWR it has a good ITR(due to it's delta design ) and MICA missile combo that can make a mincemeat of any opposition on it's day.

Infact all the avionics and cockpit displays of the Sukhoi were spin offs of Teja sprogram.

 

[hello_10]

Re: BREAKING NEWS: EPIC FAIL!!! Delay in Manufacturing of Tejas by DRD

Well tejas will remain modern as long as Typhoon , RAFALE and grippen NG remains relevant. I don't know when this circus called 5th gen stealths is going to wound up considering the leapfrogging detections tech eating away at the so called stealth aspect bit by bit.

There are reports that WIP based IRST sensor can detect and track any 5th gen from 80 nautical miles even with today's tech if such systems are perfected and employed in any 4th gen including tejas the 5th gens are no longer going to be super stars.

If in a decade's time detection tech catches up with 5th gens then LCA will be as good as any other fighter type intended for the role it is designed.

So you don't need to be sorry about it.The creative thinking regarding tech was there at the time of tejas conception. Highest percentage of composites , fully digital fly by wire tech based on unstable aerodynamic flight profile, efforts at lowering clean config RCS as less as possible,high TWR,Higher ITR which is very important in missile evading,And open electronics architechture to add any systm, more modern cockpit displays and avionics.

Infact you cannot find all the attributes in combination even in any of the soviet era fighters including Sukhoi-30 MKi that is being operated by IAf.

If you look at the cockpit display of Mig-29 you can count many dials than the stars in the sky.Despite being twin engined the Mig-29 is very short ranged fighter like Tejas as well with only lighter loads.

If sukhoi has advantages with higher STR and ITR with TWR then it's RCS is more than Tejas and it has no composite contents as well.Infact all the avionics and cockpit displays of the Sukhoi were spin offs of Teja sprogram.

we find 5 LCA mk2 + 5 Rafale F3 would perform as good as 10 Rafale, for any Multi-Role operation while working together. :ranger:

 

[vram]

This isn't with just LCA.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/02/27/f-35-grounding-timeline-unknown/


http://defensetech.org/2013/01/29/jsf-program-points-finger-at-subcontractor-for-grounding/


You see, this isn't India specific at all.

All progress is stopped depending on the problem.


The answer you gave wasn't really the real answer, a conspiracy theory, as a matter of fact. That's because it doesn't matter what the media says, in the end the people who know what's happening will be the ones making decisions.

The media blackout has very little to do with media spinning stories.

Sir I dont deny many of your contentions the very fact that ADA grounded the plane speaks well for their standards...You have only added more backing to my points.\
My earlier question was pointed to the fact that any issues with design or the material not performing to standards would have been noticed by now and handles. THAT IS WHAT THE ENTIRE TEST PROGRAM IS ABOUT ISN'T IT?

I completely agree that IAF should demand and recieve quality. What I was finding suprising to believe is the kind of issues being raised now by the so called un named officials.
It is tantamount to saying that at the end of righting a full essay which you are part of reviewing and you are back to saying that the sentence formation in the first line is wrong. So IF IF this is true what where you doing till now. And if the IAF is wrong as I believe since they have not yet received and qualified the aircraft LSP 8 why is wrong information being put out....
POINT 1 the tejas has alway been built by HAL.(The LSPs). So are they saying now after 10 years that the build is all wrong?
POINT 2 If that was the case it would have made it to the media even before the review was sent to the HAL chairman.
The IAF has NEVER NEVER held back in criticizing anything that they found wrong in the LCA program till now. They do it before the open world and the Media. So that point is moot.
EVERYTHING from the cockpit to the mig 21++ comments to the cheetah and all thing have been complained upon till now by varying sources in the IAF. I really really find it difficult to believe they would have held back any punch if they found a fault.

THe Media to put it mildly does not have a single qualified defence journo according to me. So lets not go there. You might find me tending towards conspiracy ...but the fact on the ground was that in the heat of the Rajasthan desert at 2002-2007 period the ARJUN had to have black boxes installed to prevent tampering. And lo since then the issues have reduced dramatically. Now the ARMY is back to saying the wieght is more as they cant point to any technical fault now...So what where they doing when they kept requesting one feature after the other..dint the Directorate know that each additional feature comes at a cost namely WIEGHT??
They would rather run around in vintage soviet machines with 75% night blindness and extreme heat rather that using the relatively comfortable a/c cabin and fully night aware Arjun 2.
AND THE MEDIA WAS ALL READY TO LAP UP THE NEGATIVITY and so called superiority of WHITE MAN GODLIKE technical know how rather than doing true investigative journalism. Heck we had to get the isrealis to certify that the Arjun was good.
Only Shukla turned out a little good in all this for trying to find the truth. For that he was called a DRDO payed man.

 

[p2prada]

Sir I dont deny many of your contentions the very fact that ADA grounded the plane speaks well for their standards...You have only added more backing to my points.\
My earlier question was pointed to the fact that any issues with design or the material not performing to standards would have been noticed by now and handles. THAT IS WHAT THE ENTIRE TEST PROGRAM IS ABOUT ISN'T IT?

Testing does not necessarily solve all problems. We can continue finding problems much later too.

Also, manufacturing quality is different from design deficiency.

There are certain design deficiencies that can never be fixed. LCA Mk1 has many design deficiencies that cannot be fixed at all. Hence why we have LCA Mk2, which according to ADA's official claim is being designed to conform to IAF original ASR + newer requirements to keep the aircraft relevant.

I completely agree that IAF should demand and recieve quality. What I was finding suprising to believe is the kind of issues being raised now by the so called un named officials.

I don't find anything unnatural in this. LCA is nearly up for delivery. This is the time IAF starts looking at the aircraft from the user perspective and hence this is the time they will find issues, if any. Normally, design issues are fixed when HAL starts delivering aircraft from SP-1 to SP-20. Note that these aircraft are not battle ready and therefore are not fit for war. So quality and design can be improved over the next 2 years.

LCA program is not even close to finished. The most difficult part starts now, when the aircraft progresses from IOC to FOC. The easy part is over. IOC to FOC is the time when a flying shell is converted to a fighting machine. This is the time when weapons are integrated, flight envelop is opened up, EW kits and other important avionics are installed, radar is opened up to its fullest extent for validation. The testing phase is less than half done.

POINT 1 the tejas has alway been built by HAL.(The LSPs). So are they saying now after 10 years that the build is all wrong?

I had pointed this out in my previous post, check post 712.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43717-ada-lca-tejas-iv-48.html#post705058

POINT 2 If that was the case it would have made it to the media even before the review was sent to the HAL chairman.

The design agency claiming the manufacturer cannot provide quality is an age old issue. That's why the Russians always depute scientists and technicians in India for the manufacture of their products, to ensure quality. To make sure the manufacturer does not try using cheap and shoddy materials and practices to save costs. Yeah, this problem exists in the defense industry too.

The IAF has NEVER NEVER held back in criticizing anything that they found wrong in the LCA program till now. They do it before the open world and the Media. So that point is moot.

EVERYTHING from the cockpit to the mig 21++ comments to the cheetah and all thing have been complained upon till now by varying sources in the IAF. I really really find it difficult to believe they would have held back any punch if they found a fault.

The current concerns are coming from ADA, not IAF. The IAF officers are echoing that stand, nothing more.

They are merely questioning ADA and HAL's ability to deliver quality that IAF demands. It is a valid concern, something both ADA and HAL will have to prove wrong or else we will get stuck with a malfunctioning aerospace industry again. Note that it is not IAF's fault if ADA and HAL is not able to deliver.

THe Media to put it mildly does not have a single qualified defence journo according to me. So lets not go there. You might find me tending towards conspiracy ...but the fact on the ground was that in the heat of the Rajasthan desert at 2002-2007 period the ARJUN had to have black boxes installed to prevent tampering.

Arjun issue was different. Nothing went wrong with the engines, transmission failed instead. The foreign manufacturer did not inform CVRDE that they were using different ball bearings. DRDO's comments on sabotage were reckless, they should have exercised caution instead of jumping to conclusion. There are far too many people involved during such tests and even the success/failure of these tests didn't mean much to the Army since all the plans were already laid out beforehand.

And lo since then the issues have reduced dramatically. Now the ARMY is back to saying the wieght is more as they cant point to any technical fault now...

Even CVRDE accepts Arjun is heavy in all the interviews held after that. Hence why there is a new FMBT program.

Regardless Arjun is a decade late. Even if the tank is better than Abrams, it can't replace the T-90s. The weight issue was always pointed out since early 2000s.

So what where they doing when they kept requesting one feature after the other..dint the Directorate know that each additional feature comes at a cost namely WIEGHT??
They would rather run around in vintage soviet machines with 75% night blindness and extreme heat rather that using the relatively comfortable a/c cabin and fully night aware Arjun 2.

The T-90MS has all the features the army has asked for in Arjun Mk2 and it is less than 50 tonnes in weight. It never mattered how good the Arjun was or how good it became today. Once it failed trials in 1998, it was decided the T-90 will be the future MBT. Now nothing anybody says will change that.

Only Shukla turned out a little good in all this for trying to find the truth. For that he was called a DRDO payed man.

Shukla views made a U-turn in an instant after 2005. Before that he was strictly against Arjun. He even had an exhaustive Arjun bashing post on BR back in 2004. Some of his points are what I still echo today.

Anyway, Arjun has been debated to its end. No point continuing it. This is way off topic too and has nothing to do with IAF and LCA.

 

[vram]

Anyway, Arjun has been debated to its end. No point continuing it. This is way off topic too and has nothing to do with IAF and LCA.

Yes agree. I only brought this up to highlight the Mindset of the military establishment.
We have our difference in opinion and I respect yours while sticking to mine. Let wait and watch in the future hope all iz well
What my entire intention was to highlight the partisan nature of procurement in the IAF. Yes we have some good personal who support indigenous products like Sudarshan LBG though its not yet best in class.
But overwhelmingly the mindset is for phoren mal. Why buy a tata or mahindra when you can get the full monty with a 80% more expensive Pajero.
Yes the end user should demand quality as is his right. But my greatest dissapointment has been that the same set of standards are not consistently applied. When a JAG was bought with a pathetic Radar we had to wait and upgrade using HAL.When the monthly problems keep sparking up from the MIG's and the sukhois we still bend over backwards to accommodate them.
But when desi mal has the some problem then abuse it in the worst way. This the difference between INDIA and CHINA. They too started with inferior products. BUT by supporting thier own products the quality has kept increasing. THe ban of sales by the EU and the US was a boon for them.
With this mindset we will be a borrowed regional power.