Know Your 'Rafale'

[sorcerer]

Rafale will not be cancelled, will wait for CAG report: Arun Jaitley

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/65919848.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Tejas MK2 or MCA is not a joke. ADA is making it, not HAL. Don't mistake

HAL is making Tejas Mk1 as fast as it can do sustainably. India has asked HAL to slow down production because of CAATSA uncertainty about F404 and need to get indigenous Kaveri which is about to be completed in 2 years. HAL has no other problems. Once Kaveri is ready, Tejas will be made in full swing.
.

29 yrs on, indigenous Kaveri yet to take wing
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/india/29-yrs-on-indigenous-kaveri-yet-to-take-wing.html
Good news is that the French Govt has agreed to fix the gaps in knowledge base for India on the Kaveri Engines.

But again, India cant wait for such testing and stuffs forever putting the security of India at risk.

No one is giving ToT to India or any natural resource. MoU is a joke.

Google!!probably thats behind your firewall or sense or both.

You should have also told the same line by chinese on the forum ..china has much much much money. Did you miss that line?

Why are you acting like a USA stooge and not asking why USA refused to help India get technology for semiconductor chips? USA even refused to help ISRO upgrade its fab at SCL, chandiigarh!! USA will die but not allow India to get high end technology. China is not the one trying to stop India.


There is no problem is China has same technology.

Absolutely...Same copy cat technology..
SAME!!! thats the usual chinese narrative we get on this forum.
When USA refused to help, India built own..Thats a nice thing and thats one reason why USA wants to transfer and train.
china is right in ONE ARTICLE by gobar times a few days back, most of it was propaganda but the fact they said is. INDIA is trying to ACQUIRE Technology from BOTH SIDES of the worlds, from Russia and From USA.

NOW, that is the problem for china.

Maoists were a response to Indian instigations in Tibet. In Tibet, India had no business interfering in the affairs of Tibet. Tibet is Chinese territory by geography. There is no proper boundary that demarcates Tibet from China and hence there is no way CHina can have a boundary with Tibet. If China had asked India to not annex Hyderabad from Nizam in 1948, India too would be pissed at China. India must not have hosted Tibet govt in exile

Nice..the usual chinese narrative on INdian forum
Tibet and Maoist..You seem to know a lot on such politics...[Do notice the sarcasm, if you can understand that]

China has been a great force to counter the violent and vicious USA. China had been wronged by west in the pasta and hence they are taking their territory back. Even Taiwan was part of China but USA is propping up Taiwan against China. China is reacting but not acting violentlt

Another chinese narrative.
Too early to say the "Counter part" The game only began and already the chinese business men are totally upset about chinese reaction to US trade war

China and pakistan have an agreement that says that once Kahsmir dispute is settled, the kashmir part give to China will be renegotiated

Are you mentally unsound? Pakistan was USA ally till 2010. How China can sponsor kahmir violence? Hurriyat was also made by CIA

Well!!!
There wont be any renegotiation when kashmir part is settled with pakistan by India.china is just a bystander , even chinese say such.
Heard of JeM and chinese move to support the terrorist group in pakistan against India.Thats just one of the example of sponsored terrorism in the valley.

The ToT has been answered in parliament once. Then what is the India specific modification of $.15-2 billion? The modification of the plane is said to be just software, not worth $2billion

The SAME SAME thing which even pakis want to know. and congress in India wants to know.
With every passing day the congress's hand in glove with pak and china is coming out. Seriously, china is going to expose that clown Raga sooner than anticipated by their restlessness.
Its INDIA SPECIFIC MODIFICATIONS and its not JUST software

Russia gives ToT on all items. Others don't. So, buying from Russia is correct. Simple logic here

IF Russia delivers on time and within the budget and NOT escalate the price in the middle of the project as they did with a few high profile projects that mattered the most.
Its simple logic here.

 

[hit&run]

IF Russia delivers on time and within the budget and NOT escalate the price in the middle of the project as they did with a few high profile projects that mattered the most.
Its simple logic here.

ToT is used quite vaguely by fanboys. I wonder if they know what comprises ToT.

 

[sorcerer]

^^
Thats another stooge with chinese narrative.
Ruffled the feathers on it, just to be sure


Seems like every one from across the border is eager to know the "India specific modifications" and "secret clause" in Rafale.
When pakis and chinese are upset and plays through the India's opposition, we can be very sure that India made the right choice on a subject.

 

[hit&run]

^^
Thats another stooge with chinese narrative.
Ruffled the feathers on it, just to be sure


Seems like every one from across the border is eager to know the "India specific modifications" and "secret clause" in Rafale.
When pakis and chinese are upset and plays through the India's opposition, we can be very sure that India made the right choice on a subject.

36 Jets are coming and most likely they will be taken by SFC. These badass jets will be put on to melt their urban slums quietly.

More Jets will come through if this government successfully takes on the predictable paid propaganda heads on and wins next election.

This has given bleeding piles to Porkis and China man.

If you go to their dull, lame and illiterate forums crawling with sick bugs you will find how desperately they want Modi to go away. Laughably Porki ministers are accusing Modi of corruption for Rafale deal. This shows how important this purchase is for us.

 

[sorcerer]

Latest excuse of why Rafale deal is bad.
Without Rafale, HAL stares at idle capacity problem

Statesman News Service

Rafale jet deal between HAL, Dassault Aviation fell through as they had ‘serious disagreements’: Report


New Delhi: The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Dassault Aviation had some major disagreements due to which the negotiations between the two organisations collapsed over the Rafale fighter jet deal during the UPA era, official sources reportedly said on Thursday. According to an ANI report, HAL had written a letter to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in 2012 that detailed its differences with Dassault over workshare.

HAL sent another letter to the ministry in 2014 in which it highlighted another crucial issue that remained unresolved which was regarding responsibility sharing between Dassault and HAL for license manufacture of aircraft. Apart from that, the two organisations were also at loggerheads over the issue of the man hours needed for the manufacture of various components of the aircraft in HAL, ANI reported.

"Due to all these reasons the proposals for 126 MMRCA could not progress further,” a source was quoted as saying by ANI. Recently, a media report had quoted T. Suvarna Raju, former chairman and managing director (CMD), saying that Dassault and HAL had signed the mutual workshare contract which had been given to the government. Raju reportedly claimed that the life-cycle costs of the aircraft would have been cheaper if the aircrafts were manufactured in India.

However, responding to that claim, sources told the news agency that because HAL and Dassault had never come to an agreement over workshare between Dassault and HAL, the report alleging that the life-cycle costs of the planes would have been lower was totally “presumptive”. The source also called the media report quoting the HAL ex-CMD’s statement as “factually incorrect,” ANI reported.

The opposition parties, especially Congress, have accused the NDA government of favouring Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence as the offset partner” of Dassault at the cost of HAL. However, the government has denied the charges with Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman recently telling news agency PTI, "Deal for procurement of 126 Rafale jets under UPA fell through as HAL did not have required capability to produce them.”


Rafale jet deal between HAL, Dassault Aviation fell through as they had ‘serious disagreements’: Report Description: Rafale jet deal: According to a report, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) had written a letter to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in 2012 that detailed its differences with Dassault over workshare


https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...l-ministry-of-defence-reliance-defence/287798

 

[sorcerer]

36 Jets are coming and most likely they will be taken by SFC. These badass jets will be put on to melt their urban slums quietly.

More Jets will come through if this government successfully takes on the predictable paid propaganda heads on and wins next election.

This has given bleeding piles to Porkis and China man.

If you go to their dull, lame and illiterate forums crawling with sick bugs you will find how desperately they want Modi to go away. Laughably Porki ministers are accusing Modi of corruption for Rafale deal. This shows how important this purchase is for us.

.... India's tri-services strike force is planning to acquire 40 fighter planes capable of delivering nuclear weapons. The SFC has submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force. This will be the first time that the SFC, which at present depends on the Indian Air Force for delivering nuclear weapons under its command, will have its own aerial assets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Forces_Command

paki and chinese worry is understood

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

^^
Thats another stooge with chinese narrative.
Ruffled the feathers on it, just to be sure


Seems like every one from across the border is eager to know the "India specific modifications" and "secret clause" in Rafale.
When pakis and chinese are upset and plays through the India's opposition, we can be very sure that India made the right choice on a subject.

Firstly, China has much better technology than France does. So, I don't see why China is bothered. But Pakistan will be bothered along with their Arab habibis.

But since you too don't know the ToT involved, you are speaking rich words

 

[smestarz]

I might just correct you here a bit. I believe the 2012 Agreement was with Reliance Industries which is Mukesh Ambani and not Anil Ambani. And that was the local partner chosen as the local partner for MMRCA deal., So if an when the MMRCA was signed, then Dassault and Reliance industries will be JV partners and HAL would be the chief integrator. Do check the records and let me know..Even this articles say RELIANCE INDUSTRIES. Anil Ambanis company is Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group ADAG.

Dassault’s deal with Anil Ambani dates back to 2012: Defence Ministry

New Delhi : In a bid to absolve PM Modi of securing the Rafale offset contract to Anil Ambani as alleged by former France President, the Defence Ministry on Saturday clarified that the aircraft’s manufacturer Dassault Aviation, had entered into a pact for partnership with Ambani”s Reliance Industries back in February 2012, “within two weeks of being declared the lowest bidder for 126 aircraft” by the previous government.


In an official press release, the Defence Ministry also reiterated that the government has no role in selection of the Indian offset partner, nor any official knowledge of the joint venture deal signed in February 2017 between Reliance Defence and Dassault Aviation as the guidelines require the vendor to provide details of the offset partners “either at the time of seeking offset credit or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation, which in this case will be due from 2020.”

http://www.freepressjournal.in/indi...i-dates-back-to-2012-defence-ministry/1361147

 

[smestarz]

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/old-pact-was-with-mukesh/cid/1669886

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-rafale-offsets-deal/articleshow/65791781.cms

Dassault’s deal with Anil Ambani dates back to 2012: Defence Ministry

New Delhi : In a bid to absolve PM Modi of securing the Rafale offset contract to Anil Ambani as alleged by former France President, the Defence Ministry on Saturday clarified that the aircraft’s manufacturer Dassault Aviation, had entered into a pact for partnership with Ambani”s Reliance Industries back in February 2012, “within two weeks of being declared the lowest bidder for 126 aircraft” by the previous government.


In an official press release, the Defence Ministry also reiterated that the government has no role in selection of the Indian offset partner, nor any official knowledge of the joint venture deal signed in February 2017 between Reliance Defence and Dassault Aviation as the guidelines require the vendor to provide details of the offset partners “either at the time of seeking offset credit or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation, which in this case will be due from 2020.”

http://www.freepressjournal.in/indi...i-dates-back-to-2012-defence-ministry/1361147

 

[BON PLAN]

After so much noise on Rafale, IAF has no choice but to back Tejas MK1A, MK2 and AMCA resulting in their success.

1) The noise make by opposition is inconsistant.
2) Tejas Mk1A : not in production, and only point defense plane (it can't realize medium plane mission, because not studied for). Tejas MK2 : on the drawing board. AMCA : paper project. Other planes, except Su30MKI, have to be adapted to india specific needs so it takes time and bargain. No, the sole option is Rafale. And time is running for Rafale.

 

[BON PLAN]

1) I still think that importing military hardware is a monumental waste of money, when that money could be better spent on research and development within the military-science complex of India. India fights wars which are either ridiculously easy to win (Middle East) or too hard to win (China).

2) Considering that it was a gift to his wife, he may have been given the gift but that may not mean he acted upon getting the gift - especially since the gift was for his wife and not himself.

AMEN !!!!

send a peacefull mail to China president.

 

[BON PLAN]

"MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA Do you see how you sound?
Let me reply to you pointwise.
1. IAF wanted more Mirage 2000 after Kargil, and these were sought to replace the aging fleet of MiG-21 which were close to their end of life time. Now as some of the jokers have been talking of weight class etc.. The original plane was to replace LIGHT FIGHTER AIRCRAFT with MEDIUM MRCA (French fanboys do term Mirage as Medium class dont they?)
So as some of the noted forumers here say that Light planes are light planes and cannot be replaced by heavy or Medium, so where was the IAFs intelligence in this? They were planning and going ahead with replacing a LCA(MiG-21) with an MCA (Mirage 2000) Tejas was being developed but due to Sanctions the development of Tejas was very slow as engine was not upto performance, Thus IAF did not want to go with Tejas (Imported airforce after all) So

2. Someone from bureaucracy thought that Mirage 2000-5 is much different than the original Mirage 2000 that would need a new RFI and cannot be taken as followon order. Thus started the MRCA.

3. French entered with Mirage 2000 which was already out of Production in France as France was producing Rafale, but still France thought to enter with Mirage 2000. So apparently the French were assured that Mirage 2000 would be selected no matter what.

4. When all the compeitors arrived. Mirage 2000 was the weakest of the lot and also it was NOT THE CHEAPEST. Thus if France had gone with Mirage 2000, then they would have lost it to others for performance and to MiG-35 in terms of performance and price. Thus later Dassault changed the Mirage 2000 entry with Rafale.
REMEMBER THIS COMPETITION WAS FOR REPLACING THE AGING MIG-21 OF IAF, and anyone who would call MiG-21 as Medium weight combat aircraft is a nut. So your point "MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA " ,, fals flat.

Also every country in the world has limited resources and money. So India had to order say 140+ Tejas which will replace MiG-21, so where would the fund for 126 MRCA come from? Its not only matter of purchase, but also operations and maintenance.. So who pays for that? Mirage 2000 and Rafale are good planes but they dont bring something to the table which we dont have. Deep strike in Pakistan, we have Su-30 MKI which can do it, Deep strike in China, .. Rafale cannot go deep till guangzhou, and if it has to go till Guangzhou due to its short legs it would not be able to carry any warload that is significant, on other hand, India is developing missiles like Prahaar which can be air launched and has a range of 1000 kms and that surely puts Guangzhou or even Shanghai within the range of Su-30 MKI, but Rafale simply does not have the ability to carry this missile.

What FGFA brings is VLO by Design, Rafale is trying to depend on avionics for avoiding detection, but due to external loads and its design, no matter what, Rafale cannot be Stealthy, by design. Also when you have multiple radars scanning at different frenquencies it would be difficult for Rafale avionics to spoof them.

Already Rafale fanboys are exaggerating and trying to show that the RCS of Rafale is just bigger than F-22 hahahaha

So when you compare FGFA (Su-57) vs Rafale, Rafale is an old figher that was designed in last century, The engine is underpowered (and they spin this disadvantage as good for range haha) Further FGFA can carry bigger load of internal fuel and also ability to carry weapons internally and thus the RCS will be low and consistent, but this is not the case of Rafale, It is funny when French fanboys are trying to call FGFA expensive when we are not really aware of the price. The only thing that IAF talked about is that they were not happy about the performance as that time the Su-57 was tested with 4th Gen engine.

5th Gen planes offer better survivability, due to VLO which Rafale is unable to offer. Also if going to war, its always better to go with an unfair advantage which an FGFA will bring, Rafale is a 4th gen plane which can be taken down by other 4th gen planes, but this is not the case with 5th Gen plane..

Mirage 2000, as F16, are between light and medium plane.
First gen Mirage 2000, in air to air mission, with just 4 11M and one sole 1200 liters tank was too short legs. The last "-5" can carry 6 AAM, a cruise missile or exocet or 4x250kg bombs and 2 x 2000l tanks = near a medium plane performance.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think its French problem that they cannot really translate to English.
Lets say this controversy stays, then GoI would in a way be forced to not select Rafale in the MMRCA 2.0
As any selection of Rafale further would be considered that GoI is trying to Favour Ambani and hence giving the order to Rafale.

That is not slap on face dear, that would be eggs on French face. Whatever Hollande has said and if its rightly interpreted (Hollande did say and mean what is translated) then it would effectively CAP the Rafale order at 36.
Then Guess which plane IN has to select ??? F/A-18 ..

BTW when you have eggs on the face the only positive thing to do is, make yourself an omlette

It was just a slap in YOUR face !

 

[BON PLAN]

Su57 has ToT agreement

LOL.
How many copy are purchased by India? ........... ZERO !

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale without EW has 1m^2 RCS and that is pretty high and is a LO plane, not VLO. VLO plane has RCS<0.1m^2 without EW.

another LOL

1m² is the RCS of Mirage 2000.
Rafale RCS is far better. far ! from front it is under 0,01m².

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale 1
B-2 0.75 ?
Typhoon 0.5

incredible.

Stop to past and copy BS found on US forum.

EF is detected at greater distance than Rafale. All exercises confirm that.

 

[sorcerer]

I might just correct you here a bit. I believe the 2012 Agreement was with Reliance Industries which is Mukesh Ambani and not Anil Ambani. And that was the local partner chosen as the local partner for MMRCA deal., So if an when the MMRCA was signed, then Dassault and Reliance industries will be JV partners and HAL would be the chief integrator. Do check the records and let me know..Even this articles say RELIANCE INDUSTRIES. Anil Ambanis company is Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group ADAG.

True!
Reliance Industries, did come for the JV on the project, but later moved out.

 

[BON PLAN]

Stop dreaming about this.Non of the western countries will give high tech ToT to India. How many billions India paid to Russians?Did they they transfer any substantial ToT to India?

Just one exemple : Brahmos .

 

[BON PLAN]

Indian govt proposed Reliance Defence as partner in Rafale: French media quoting Hollande
The defence ministry said it was verifying reports that quote former French president Hollande as stating that the Indian government insisted on a particular firm as offset partner for the Dassault Aviation in the Rafale deal.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...e-says-govt/story-AYHRjf0qk2wlOQPJWNsvsJ.html

you know why? because indian governement try to find a way to energize and shake HAL. And in a big country as India, 2 planes manufacturers is not too much.

 

[sorcerer]

Firstly, China has much better technology than France does. So, I don't see why China is bothered. But Pakistan will be bothered along with their Arab habibis.

But since you too don't know the ToT involved, you are speaking rich words

, good one...I managed a chuckle.
France has the JET ENGINE technology for soooooo long and with advanced technology bling bling things in aerospace industries. but china just managed one engine which is still under testing..which probably is a crappy copy from Russia discarded for nonperfomance.
That itself proves a lot about chinese technology prowess..

Offset clauses and what all technologies are shared (A few information) are already available on the internet.
Google is the key! Looks like you are behind the great wall of chinese firewall!!

----------

In a series of slides accessed by Livefist, the contours of the ‘Make in India’ elements of the Rafale deal stand revealed for the first time. The details that follow pertain principally to the Rafale platform itself, and doesn’t include the $1-billion partnership between France’s SAFRAN and India’s DRDO for the Kaveri turbofan engine, a major thrust area for both countries that will also count in the offsets program.

The details below reveal that Rafale has so far forged partnerships with at least 72 firms for industrial sourcing areas that span, among other Dassault platforms, the Rafale’s airframe, its Snecma M88 engines, radar, electronic warfare and avionics, aeronautical components, engineering and software. The slides below indicate that Dassault and its partners are in negotiations with tens more firms for offsets opportunities. This, in effect, is the first specific and overall sense of what Indian firms will bring to the table on the Rafale.

Apart from the Dassault Reliance JV, the others include Snecma HAL Aerospace Ltd (SHAe) for aero-engine components and Thales’s joint ventures with India’s SAMTEL for multifunction cockpit displays. The new Thales-Reliance joint venture, named Thales Reliance Defence Systems (TRDS), not only plans to build technologies for Rafales in India and worldwide, but also says it will ‘develop Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain radar and electronic warfare sensors’.

Here’s more from the Rafale offsets plan and the Indian companies that will be part of it. Rafale deliveries to the Indian Air Force begin in September 2019.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...of-frances-e4-billion-india-offsets-plan.html


IMO, the posters in here must have already posted info on all these..
click back a few pages and enlighten yourself.