Know Your 'Rafale'

[ersakthivel]

Who put the less than significant range criteria for MMRCA?,
any of the Ambani brothers in collaboration with Modi perhaps!!!!!!!

Well Modi has ESP power to influence the MMRCA decision on RAfALE four years before he actually sets his foot in Delhi,

I faintly remember an APNE DHUKKAN comment in radia tape by some one alleged as Ambani,

Where is APNA DHUKKAN in 2008 , In delhi or in gandhi nagar or in Italy?

 

[Immanuel]

F-35 won't enhance anything in our inventory if avionics alone is considered, since both MKI and Rafale are expected to get similar or better systems. VLO is its strongest selling point, but with the FGFA coming up we won't need even that.

What systems are being developed for the MKI and Rafale that can match the existing DAS or EOTS? I know the Super MKI will have longer range radar, upgraded OLS but OLS though capable in no where similar to DAS which combines with AESA to detect missile/artillery launches from over 1200km, which system being developed now for Rafale or MKI can match that range? Also have existing systems in the Rafale/MKI been able to detect ground based ballistic missile launches?

Also have you forgetten the APG-80 scored better in UAE and the obvious deal was stalled because Rafale had very little added advantages over the block 60 for the massive surcharge in price?

 

[Immanuel]

By the way the Rafale deal is going there is no indication it will be signed anytime soon and even if we sign it next year the earliest, the quickest delivery likely will be 2017. There is no reason why we can't order F-35 now and have guaranteed delivery of the first batch of 18 by 2018-2019. In the mean-time IAF can order another 30 Super MKI to keep the air space tight and clean.

 

[p2prada]

What systems are being developed for the MKI and Rafale that can match the existing DAS or EOTS? I know the Super MKI will have longer range radar, upgraded OLS but OLS though capable in no where similar to DAS which combines with AESA to detect missile/artillery launches from over 1200km, which system being developed now for Rafale or MKI can match that range?

They can all match it if needed. What's more important is a 360 degree LWS and MAWS capability.

Existing MAWS and LWS already handle most of what DAS does. The Malaysia MKM is already equipped with 360 deg capability.

This is on the Su-35.

This is on the Su-30MKM.

Both aircraft have 10 such sensors covering roughly 360 degrees depending on function. Rafale is no different.

DAS is simply old stuff packaged into new. Similar systems will be developed if there is a need for it. The only thing extra DAS does is provide a 360 degree video to the pilot, which only helps in dog fights. MAWS and LWS provide an electronic picture only. But this only helps slightly negate the agility disadvantage of the F-35 in comparison to Rafale's excellent agility.

Also have existing systems in the Rafale/MKI been able to detect ground based ballistic missile launches?

We don't know that, but the technology exists on both aircraft through the IRST sensors. Ground based IRSTs have been used for detecting and tracking missiles from hundreds of Kms away. This is not something that is foreign to either MKI or Rafale.

One major Rafale advantage is that it is nuke ready. F-35 is not. So, we cannot use the F-35 to launch nukes. This is of far higher operational significance to the IAF than the F-35's missile detection, which is something that most probably already exists on Rafale as well, just not advertised.

And it is impossible for the F-35 to detect a missile during launch at max range because there is such a thing called Line Of Sight.

Both MKI and Rafale are required to detect and track cruise missiles, so tracking ballistic missiles isn't any different. In terms of elevation, MKI and Rafale have a much better chance for detection due to the location of the IRST sensors while F-35's sensors are located below the cockpit.

Also have you forgetten the APG-80 scored better in UAE and the obvious deal was stalled because Rafale had very little added advantages over the block 60 for the massive surcharge in price?

That was for the RBE-2 PESA. AESA came much later and is better than the APG-80. In the world of AESAs, APG-80 is actually obsolete. RBE-2AA is a generation ahead in comparison. In 2002, Rafale was nowhere near ready, quite like Typhoon is today.

 

[p2prada]

By the way the Rafale deal is going there is no indication it will be signed anytime soon and even if we sign it next year the earliest, the quickest delivery likely will be 2017. There is no reason why we can't order F-35 now and have guaranteed delivery of the first batch of 18 by 2018-2019. In the mean-time IAF can order another 30 Super MKI to keep the air space tight and clean.

MKI is not a replacement for Rafales. They don't cover the MRCA requirements.

If we go for the F-35 now, deliveries will only happen post 2021, ie after FOC when they will be made at the rate of 1/day. Even after that first priority will be the partner nations. F-35 is not available for export even to the Arab nations, so forget about us getting F-35s anytime before 2020.

IAF won't accept a pre-FOC aircraft anyway since it was part of the RFP.

We will be lucky to take deliveries of the F-35 starting from 2025 for the Navy.

 

[laughingbuddha]

MKI is not a replacement for Rafales. They don't cover the MRCA requirements.

If we go for the F-35 now, deliveries will only happen post 2021, ie after FOC when they will be made at the rate of 1/day. Even after that first priority will be the partner nations. F-35 is not available for export even to the Arab nations, so forget about us getting F-35s anytime before 2020.

IAF won't accept a pre-FOC aircraft anyway since it was part of the RFP.

We will be lucky to take deliveries of the F-35 starting from 2025 for the Navy.

Keeping this in mind if there is some interest in the F-35 or its variants, perhaps the decision on the LHDs is also important.

 

[Santu]

France and India are fully on track to seal the deal for the around $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project, under which IAF will acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets, French ambassador Francios Richier said.

"Negotiations have recently achieved significant progress. We are looking to sign the intergovernmental agreement together with the commercial contract for the planes," said Richier, speaking exclusively to TOI.

Reacting to recent reports that France had asked the Indian government to sign a government guarantee to safeguard the negotiations for the fighters, Richier denied that any such agreement was asked for. "We have worked very closely with all Indian governments, so we have no reason to ask for such an agreement," he said.

The final MMRCA contract is expected to be inked by the next government that comes to office in May-June after the general elections. Even the ongoing French Scorpene project, under which six submarines are being built at Mazagon Docks, was eventually signed by the UPA-1 government in October 2005 despite the bulk of its negotiations taking place under the previous NDA regime.

"We are confident about the progress in the negotiation process (for the MMRCA project)," said Richier. Though the pace of the final negotiations has been glacial since the Rafale was finally selected over its rivals in January 2012, the IAF is also now quite hopeful that the contract with French aviation major Dassault will be inked in the 2014-2015 fiscal.

Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) finalized the MMRCA work-share agreement in February, under which the Indian defence PSU will have a 70% role, after months of bitter wrangling. Under the MMRCA project, while the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition", HAL is to manufacture the rest 108 fighters under licence over six years.

"Now that issues like work-share, warranty and liquidity damages have been resolved, the responsibility matrix of all Indian production agencies is being finalized. Once that is done, the draft contract will be readied for the final government clearance," said a source.

Eurofighter Typhoon as well as the US fighters that lost out in the long-drawn selection process are eagerly waiting in the wings in the hope of staging a comeback in the dogfight over the world's biggest such tender.

But there seems little possibility of that happening now, with India having invested almost a decade in finally selecting the Rafale after extensive technical and commercial evaluation. Down to just 34 fighter squadrons at present when it requires at least 44, IAF is banking upon the MMRCA project to retain its combat edge against adversaries.


Defence News - Deal for 126 Rafale fighters close to being signed

 

[Immanuel]

They can all match it if needed. What's more important is a 360 degree LWS and MAWS capability.

Existing MAWS and LWS already handle most of what DAS does. The Malaysia MKM is already equipped with 360 deg capability.

This is on the Su-35.

This is on the Su-30MKM.

Both aircraft have 10 such sensors covering roughly 360 degrees depending on function. Rafale is no different.

DAS is simply old stuff packaged into new. Similar systems will be developed if there is a need for it. The only thing extra DAS does is provide a 360 degree video to the pilot, which only helps in dog fights. MAWS and LWS provide an electronic picture only. But this only helps slightly negate the agility disadvantage of the F-35 in comparison to Rafale's excellent agility.



We don't know that, but the technology exists on both aircraft through the IRST sensors. Ground based IRSTs have been used for detecting and tracking missiles from hundreds of Kms away. This is not something that is foreign to either MKI or Rafale.

One major Rafale advantage is that it is nuke ready. F-35 is not. So, we cannot use the F-35 to launch nukes. This is of far higher operational significance to the IAF than the F-35's missile detection, which is something that most probably already exists on Rafale as well, just not advertised.

And it is impossible for the F-35 to detect a missile during launch at max range because there is such a thing called Line Of Sight.

Both MKI and Rafale are required to detect and track cruise missiles, so tracking ballistic missiles isn't any different. In terms of elevation, MKI and Rafale have a much better chance for detection due to the location of the IRST sensors while F-35's sensors are located below the cockpit.



That was for the RBE-2 PESA. AESA came much later and is better than the APG-80. In the world of AESAs, APG-80 is actually obsolete. RBE-2AA is a generation ahead in comparison. In 2002, Rafale was nowhere near ready, quite like Typhoon is today.

Your post is laughable to say the least, neither MKI or Rafale have demonstrated to visually track Ballistic Missile launches at that range, regardless of LOS F-35 did track launches at over 1200km. Also UAE evaluated the AESA on block 60 and Rafale with RBE2 as well and rejected it, you might want to do some digging up.

Rafale has no IRST, MKI with OLS is great but can't detect anything beyond a 100km. As far as MAWS and LWS goes DAS is a generation ahead, with the ranges being much higher for detection and tracking (they still have to fine tune the algorithms but in a couple of years should be far more reliable)

Also F-35's suppossed lack of agility is also silly because pilots clearly put it similar to the F-16/F-18 super bug with a full internal load, and given much longer range AESA detection, VLO, DAS Rafale will get a Aim-120D up its tailpipe before it can even detect the F-35, Rafale in an airshow is not the same agile or low rcs Rafale when it lugs around ordnance. the F-35 will detect both Visually on DAS and AESA atleast 150km away. Matter of fact with DAS and EOTS they'll spot the Rafale while preparing to take off

Moreover, I don't call for scrapping of the Rafale, I only call for buying of the F-35, neither do I say the MKI is a replacament, just a gap filler.

 

[halloweene]

Your post is laughable to say the least, neither MKI or Rafale have demonstrated to visually track Ballistic Missile launches at that range, regardless of LOS F-35 did track launches at over 1200km. Also UAE evaluated the AESA on block 60 and Rafale with RBE2 as well and rejected it, you might want to do some digging up.

You should do the dig up yourself, the interview of Alain Sivy in DSI was based on minimal range perfromance specifications of RBE2, which it has since been shown exceeding by far. If you dig further, Thalès engineers answered that a single different coolanol pump would do it. And it is the one and only source about this story...

Rafale has no IRST

. Really? It still have osf which is an add on kit you simply plug depending on mission. French forces Rafales with osf it rely for that function for a nerwork of iR sensors (mica misssiles, ddm-ng and added pods) + a powerful TV channel allowing identification at long distances. I think it has been extensively discussed about IR channel on idian Rafales, samtel involvement etc.

F-35 will detect both Visually on DAS

blah blah. DAS, like DDM-NG has no zooming capability. tracking a ballistic missile yeh great, so what? any idea of the energy invovlved in such a missile tracking. Which IR window will you ust to do that? The effects on IR captor nature and their capabilities to track heated items instea of exhaust plume? DDM-NG and DAS systems captors are of he same class, DAS has 6 and DDM 2 fisheye (sith cooling embedded it the matrix btw). Simpler, cheaper solution they consider as more efficient for cost (and remember Thalès UK is building DAS and they lost competition to DDM-NG)

Rafale when it lugs around ordnance.

. True, still more agile than empty F-35 (sustained turns)

EOTS they'll spot the Rafale while preparing to take off

. Finally you are talking of EOTS! the only F-35 system capable to track (not detect) at long distance... Well it is just an internal sniper pod no? Rafale can do exactly that with targeting pod also.

In the end lower observability at the cost of price, maintenance, lower range, lower payload, agility, speed, supercruise etc. And consider how unflexible the architecture must be so they cant implement ROVER capability before blodk 4...

Up to anyone to decide if safe bet...

 

[Dark Sorrow]

In the mean-time IAF can order another 30 Super MKI to keep the air space tight and clean.

What is Super MKI?
Till now I only came across MKI Phase 1, 2 and 3 development model!!!

 

[p2prada]

Your post is laughable to say the least, neither MKI or Rafale have demonstrated to visually track Ballistic Missile launches at that range, regardless of LOS F-35 did track launches at over 1200km. Also UAE evaluated the AESA on block 60 and Rafale with RBE2 as well and rejected it, you might want to do some digging up.

I don't think you understand in both cases. MKI maybe, but Rafale is not restricted by hardware in order to detect any kind of heat source. If cruise missiles and aircraft can be detected, so can ballistic missiles.

Rafale has two radars. One is a PESA which competed in UAE and the other is AESA which is available today. PESA is called RBE-2. AESA is called RBE-2AA.

Rafale has no IRST, MKI with OLS is great but can't detect anything beyond a 100km. As far as MAWS and LWS goes DAS is a generation ahead, with the ranges being much higher for detection and tracking (they still have to fine tune the algorithms but in a couple of years should be far more reliable)

It won't make a difference. By the time F-35 is ready for FOC deployment, Rafale and MKI would have new IRST suites which are as good or better than what's on the F-35.

Rafale has IRST. They have decided not to operationalize it on new batches to cut down on costs. They are awaiting the development of the OSF-NG with a new IR channel. IAF Rafales should come with this setup.

Saying we should buy the F-35 just because it has a better IRST today and completely ignore Rafale's other qualities is what's laughable, especially when Rafale is set to get the new OSF-NG in a few years, well before the F-35 will see FOC.

Also F-35's suppossed lack of agility is also silly because pilots clearly put it similar to the F-16/F-18 super bug with a full internal load, and given much longer range AESA detection, VLO, DAS Rafale will get a Aim-120D up its tailpipe before it can even detect the F-35, Rafale in an airshow is not the same agile or low rcs Rafale when it lugs around ordnance. the F-35 will detect both Visually on DAS and AESA atleast 150km away.

F-16/F-18 is obsolete in terms of agility when you compare it to Rafale and higher. At least F-16 still has good acceleration and climb, but maneuverability is obsolete. When Rafale carries air to air ordinance, it is still much more agile than the F-35 with internal load. Rafale is as maneuverable as a clean F-16 while carrying three drop tanks and air to air missiles. I have seen figures which are as good as clean F-16 when carrying AASM and drop tanks.

A US General is on quote stating that the F-35 is not an air superiority fighter, it is a strike fighter. Rafale is an air superiority fighter. There is no comparison when it comes to agility between the two.

You are confused about DAS. The max range on DAS is 20-30Km. It is not particularly special. A similar capability already exists on the EF-2000.

Matter of fact with DAS and EOTS they'll spot the Rafale while preparing to take off

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Moreover, I don't call for scrapping of the Rafale, I only call for buying of the F-35, neither do I say the MKI is a replacament, just a gap filler.

It is either Rafale or F-35. But no F-35 either since we won't get it anytime until after 2021. By then we will be nearing the end of Rafale's production cycle. Moreover Rafale is war-ready, the F-35 is not.

MKI is not a replacement for either aircraft. And sacrificing Rafales just to get the F-35 is plain stupidity.

 

[p2prada]

What is Super MKI?
Till now I only came across MKI Phase 1, 2 and 3 development model!!!

The new MKI upgrade with FGFA electronics. This is beyond Phase 3.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The new MKI upgrade with FGFA electronics. This is beyond Phase 3.

Phase 3 of further development of the MKI, will integrate avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program.
There is no road map beyond Phase 3.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Rafale has no IRST

Not true mate.
Optronique secteur frontal
Dassault Aviation : A wide range of smart and discrete sensors

 

[halloweene]

You are confused about DAS. The max range on DAS is 20-30Km. It is not particularly special. A similar capability already exists on the EF-2000.

Not to mention a test pilot passive shot using DDM-NG and RWR only...in its six at 20 NM ....

Edit and no the range isn't documented on internet

 

[p2prada]

Phase 3 of further development of the MKI, will integrate avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program.
There is no road map beyond Phase 3.

No. Phase 3 started in 2006. It's time is over. I don't know what phase the last 42 will be though because the VVS version of the MKI is even more advanced. It may be at that level.

The new "Super" program is a MLU and is completely independent from the phased upgrades.

 

[p2prada]

Not to mention a test pilot passive shot using DDM-NG and RWR only...in its six at 20 NM ....

Edit and no the range isn't documented on internet

The blue receptacle in that pic is 15NM. The Spectra shot was done at 7.8NM.

 

[Kay]

Rafale is a smart choice for India even though it is costly. F-35 is not a good choice.
India will gradually develop all radars and sensors. Rafale will remain with the French for some time,unlike all other MMRCA competitors, which will be replaced. Even though the air-frame is of 80's design, the French will keep improving the avionics and weaponry matching western standards. This will serve as a benchmark for India (in addition to Russian benchmark) while performing its own upgrades. Its always good to refer to two sources as benchmarks and hedge the bets to remain technologically ahead.
For F-35, I am just repeating what is wide over the internet. This is only for those who want F-35 for India.
F-35 air-frame has compromised performance (rate of climb, turn radius, speed, etc). for stealth and internal weapons hold. Its vulnerable in dogfights and maneuvering.
It has single engine for commonality of its three variants, which is again a compromise. Single engine means lower cost per aircraft but higher cost for maintaining fleet over lifetime. Single engine is a single pint of failure. F-35 engine is very complex (i.e. more prone to failure).
Commonality was meant to keep costs low (for F-35 A, B and C). A - CTOL for air force, B - VTOL for marines and C- STOL/CTOL (STOBAR and CATOBAR) for navy. But the complexity has increased costs.
F-35 is still under development, has problem flying in lightning. The project is years behind schedule, cost is unmanageable, There is widespread allegation of corruption for concurrent purchase (it is being bought and developed at the same time). Everyone is pissed, including Australia, Canada, Netherlands and the US Navy.
The aircraft cannot perform Close Air Support role as its too vulnerable to small arms and is not maneuverable. It cannot be used for air superiority as it is not good in dog fights. It is limited to light bombing roles.
Its strength is its stealth and Electronics warfare suite and sensor fusion and data-linking with other air-crafts for "hunting in packs" with BVR missiles. But that advantage will be quickly lost given the pace of electronics and software development worldwide (Moore's law).
Its high cost will cause air forces to have reduced number of planes. It can be best used in mixed formations with more agile fighters protecting it, while it uses its BVR and electronics suite in data-linked warfare.
This aircraft is a specialist aircraft, not a multi-role one and is seen as a gap-filler by many. Its strength can be exploited by mixed formations, but it cannot stand its own ground alone.

 

[laughingbuddha]

A year already since selection of the Rafale. Fingers crossed and hoping for a good and decisive defence minister this time.

 

[halloweene]

yes, on the photo? But i talked to the pilot... Wrote an article about it, cut its balls due to MBDA request...

Edit was answering to P2